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RockTenn PLASTIC NOT OPTIMAL OR DRY, NO GO
From the 10K;
MORE BASIC QUESTIONS
That no one can answer because there is no guidance…
1. Adding a 2nd, 3rd… 4th kiln, each requires energy to operate, so what total impact in loss of energy/output/operating cost do added kilns have on the bottom line/efficiency?
2. Adding HTF to the process means that the HTF displaces plastic. How much net gain vs cost vs throughput is there? Adding 25% HTF to compact plastic 25% does not appear to be a net gain… and it adds steps, cost, time equipment, storage and procurement…
3. Reducing moisture content of feedstock requires energy unless you just take your chances and let it sit around taking up space until it dries out… how much energy/cost/space does this require? How much does this subtract from the bottom line?
Questions that no one has the answer to.
Questions that were not addressed by any third party assessment… it’s now extremely obvious that referencing obsolete SAIC type reports that were performed on this process (that is drastically different now than back when they were done) is completely irrelevant and unrealistic to use as a basis to conclude anything regarding the current process.
Questions that must have quantifiable answers before any realistic numbers are calculated.
Put aside THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM for a second and just based on the current existing process… is there any possibility of positive net gain … or does the process require 120% more energy/cost than the output?
No one knows.
Not even sure jbi knows.
Winging it without cad drawings is an indication that implementing new ideas into the works is most likely done with no predetermination of impact…. Let’s try this and see what happens… Let’s just hope it all works out…. Maybe we can just build a 4th and 5th processor and offset the downtime with more units that are not efficient enough on their own to turn a profit… maybe…not sure… no one knows
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
REVIVING A DEAD HORSE KEY TO JBI SUCCESS
evil-
Re-polymerization.
Now that there is a definition and explanation for HTF... I see another significant problem…
Just after cracking and when the vapors begin to re-condense, with the addition of saturated hydrocarbons from the HTF there is a much higher potential for a chain or radical reaction. When there is a high proportion of unsaturated alkenes… with the addition of saturated HTF oils… they become highly reactive and want to hook up with the HTF oils. The newly cracked, unsaturated hydrocarbons will immediately begin to recombine with the HTF and essentially re-polymerize into thick wax or even short chain forms of polymers (plastic).
This problem will surely become the source of excuse to conveniently facilitate further delays.
Remember that I pointed this out… it is sure to come.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
The laughable part is that something as simple as water is a problem. (btw, agylix machines do not have a problem with water, or contaminants... or building a second site in North America, or partnering with a major player like WM)
Jbi is forced to buy non-recycleable plastic and do the same thing recyclers spend a lot of money doing... PROCESSING IT.
How anyone can think a system and process that is so fickle as to not be able to handle water is going to be able to use garbage as a feedsource without significant costs in front end processing is laughable.
The fact that simple math can not be done is laughable.
The fact that low volume of production, delays, 'logistic challenges' as jbi put it , and NEGATIVE PROFIT FUEL SALES are continuing to prove par for the course in support of my statements without any comprehension.... is laughable.
And the most laughable part is the ongoing distraction to find a place to lay blame but never blaming the source of the MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.
just laughable
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
PLASTIC IS DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT AND DRY FOR VALUE
For all of the reasons that it is difficult to obtain plastic from a waste stream for recycling would also apply to obtaining plastic from a waste stream to put it into JBI units.
The single biggest issue that creates the most troubling problem here is that JBI units can not handle mixed plastic or plastic with contaminants OR WET PLASTIC. Putting plastic with contaminants into the machine will cause fouling, bad gasses, bad emissions, and variations and contaminants in the fuel output as well as complex changes on a molecular level of the fuel that can render it out of spec.
In order to run the JBI machines it is necessary to sort the plastic and obtain a good, contaminant free, DRY stream of specific types of plastic. If you can achieve that you now have plastic that has value on the recycling market (more value than the fuel that you can make).
If you have a sorted, contaminant free, DRY supply of post industrial plastic, it is already worth more on the recycle market than it is worth trying to turn it into fuel. (and spending $55,000,000 and 4 years with no results)
Why the entire premise of JBI’s plastic to fuel is FALSE-
The first problem is in the design and permit restrictions…
The JBI machines can ONLY use DRY #2 #4 #5 and #7 plastic (and only a very limited amount of #7).
This means the plastic MUST be SORTED and DRIED unlike other companies that can handle ALL plastics.
When it comes to SORTED plastic, you get what you pay for.
If you want WET contaminated mixed plastic that will foul up your machines and break the set emission standards, sure you can get truckloads at (only) $600 a ton.
If you want good, sorted DRY plastic you will pay on average $750 a ton.
If you HAVE good sorted DRY plastic you can SELL it for $750 a ton
(more than the value of the fuel you could make from it!)
If it (only) takes 8 DRY lbs to make a gallon
and (on the best days) you get 4.4 US brls/ton
IT WILL COST $125/brl JUST IN PLASTIC!
OR, another way to look at it- If you just sort and sell the good plastic that is needed
to run the machines, you could MAKE MORE MONEY!
now add your $10 overhead cost (yeah, right, more like $55mill)
and you are selling $110/brl fuel for a $125 loss per barrel!!!
This math is not double dipping, or accounting for ANY of the long list of other issues previously pointed out AND it is the BEST CASE SCENARIO
(meaning min price for good DRY sorted plastic, max yield for the process, round UP to make it juicier, minimum overhead cost, and at a sell price of $110/brl which is NOT what a WHOLESALE buyer would pay btw).
And if I was RockTenn why on earth would I put plastic in a machine (that holds no IP advantage for my business model and could make me the target of an infringement lawsuit) to turn it into anything.... and lose time and money.... when I could sell the plastic on the open market FOR MORE MONEY and do nothing to it? Why does RockTenn landfill plastic now you ask… simple- IT COST MORE TO SEPARATE IT AND DRY IT THAN ITS WORTH!
Just another additional added point to all of the other problems....
Landfill plastic cost time and money to extract it,
once its extracted it has MORE VALUE AS RECYCLED PLASTIC than it has turning it into fuel.
http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing
When you are permitted to ONLY use landfill plastic and you can ONLY put half of the landfill plastic in the machine or you create toxins and deadly corrosive gasses that will rust and foul up your machine and break emission regulations... then you have MORE PROBLEMS.
Once you spend the time and money to extract AND DRY HALF of the landfill plastic that you can use, what do you do with the other half? Pay to put it in a landfill (ANOTHER UNMENTIONED ADDED COST) and if you actually started doing this on a regular basis or somehow managed to run at maximum capacity, in a years time you will have dumped well over 100,000 tons of UNUSABLE plastic into a landfill! (that would put you on the map as one of the biggest plastic contributors to negative environmental impact in the state of NY if not the country,… talk about bad PR for a company attempting to gain an earth friendly image)
I have not seen or heard of ANY plastic processing equipment or methods mentioned for JBI... if they were doing this it would be a good idea to let them know that they could qualify for recycling status if they sold the plastic that they separated... and between the break even cost of doing this and the recycling subsides they could get, they might just make a buck or two... oh, that's right, that would get used to pay for the dumping license they would need to get rid of that much BAD plastic that they can't use!
It has now been admitted that making fuel for only $10 a brl on a commercial level is a misguided fraud...
And why waste management companies don’t find it commercially viable to sort, DRY and sell recycled plastic headed to a landfill…
and after 4 years and $55mill it should have become even more obvious that...
MAKING FUEL FOR ONLY $10/brl IT IS ADMITTEDLY NOT POSSIBLE.
(Why perpetual motion machines don’t work-
energy in = energy out with loss… ($55,000,000 loss and growing)
THERE IS NO WAY TO GET MORE OUT THAN YOU PUT IN!)
THE PLASTIC HAS A VALUE GREATER THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL YOU CAN PRODUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
and government recycling subsidies make sure that this holds true
THIS IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM!
which is why p2o is not commercially viable
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
I call Bullshit!
So the plastic stored outside was wet...
What about the plastic stored inside?
What about the constant supply of plastic that can be off loaded inside?
What about simply running the plastic through a dryer?
The most widely used means of plastic separation is a water bath followed by a dryer.... you mean jbi is going to be on the cutting edge of plastic processing and yet they don't even possess the most basic processing equipment???
Just a convent, easy to grasp excuse for not running.
Remember, you can't overcome the MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM so the longer it takes to run the further off the solid proof that the MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM is in fact the real reason that this can not be run.
Delays, delays, delays...
Marvin the Martian
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
GET READY TO HAVE YOUR SOCKS KNOCKED OFF!
ok, so now that you have bare feet...back to my question that was not answered...
regardless of all of the distractions....
Please argue the numbers with me to make it make sense....
What part of this is not clear?
What am I not properly explaining?
How can anyone debate this and win?
How can anyone look at this and logically conclude that JBI can turn a profit making fuel?
Please, give it the best possible spin and help me understand where these people know something, anything that I don't know.
Humor me here and be way out there with any possible argument... please-
(seriously,... please)
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=86340521
The cost to process plastic... even if it was FREE is MORE than the value of the fuel that can be made.
The recycle industry has been perfecting the processing and still can not make more than a 10% profit... that 10% is gone in the overhead to make fuel.
The entire exercise is better carried out turning the plastic into recycled plastic so it can be sold for MORE than the value of the fuel without the P2O cost subtracted from the bottom line!
When plastic has a higher value than the fuel the math does not work.
Where is the proof otherwise?
Where is the math to back it up?
The MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM is still-
A > B
B - A = NEGATIVE RESULT
plastic > fuel
fuel value - plastic cost = NEGATIVE FUEL SALES
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Please argue the numbers with me to make it make sense....
What part of this is not clear?
What am I not properly explaining?
How can anyone debate this and win?
How can anyone look at this and logically conclude that JBI can turn a profit making fuel?
Please, give it the best possible spin and help me understand where these people know something, anything that I don't know.
Humor me here and be way out there with any possible argument... please-
(seriously,... please)
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=86340521
The cost to process plastic... even if it was FREE is MORE than the value of the fuel that can be made.
The recycle industry has been perfecting the processing and still can not make more than a 10% profit... that 10% is gone in the overhead to make fuel.
The entire exercise is better carried out turning the plastic into recycled plastic so it can be sold for MORE than the value of the fuel without the P2O cost subtracted from the bottom line!
When plastic has a higher value than the fuel the math does not work.
Where is the proof otherwise?
Where is the math to back it up?
A > B
B - A = NEGATIVE RESULT
plastic > fuel
fuel value - plastic cost = NEGATIVE FUEL SALES
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
UPDATED MATH PROBLEMS
So it has been stated that the jbi process can now ONLY produce 4.4 barrels of fuel per ton of plastic.
4.4 x $110/brl = $484
How much does plastic cost?
http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing#
The most inexpensive plastic that is specifically segregated and available in large quantity is $600/ton.
Now let's just use the argument that they are getting it cheaper and doing the separation and decontamination themselves.
How much does that cost?
Even the best recyclers are happy to make an average of 10% because the recycling subsidies kick in to make it worth while.
So let's take $600 and shave off 10%... hell, let's say that jbi is wizbang perfect at it and they shave off $100 by processing it themselves.
so, $250 for plastic (completely dreaming)
and $250 in processing overhead (completely dreaming)
And now that super cheap plastic that every recycler would be desperately fighting for because it's way under priced and they can make a better profit recycling...
And the newest and best ever processing at far below experts trained in the arts ability to achieve....
and you still have $500 in expense to make $484 worth of fuel.
Add in the overhead to make fuel
And every step of the way...
perfecting everything beyond the current industries ability...
consistently getting huge amounts of plastic well below market value...
AND IT'S STILL A LOSS!
THERE IS NO WAY THE MATH WORKS!
Even if the plastic was FREE the possibility to perfect the processing of it for less than the well experienced recycle industry currently does WITHOUT any recycling subsidies...
IT'S STILL A LOSS!
A > B
B - A = NEGATIVE RESULT
plastic > fuel
fuel value - plastic cost = NEGATIVE FUEL SALES
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
MASTERS IN THE ART... have a slim margin and make a profit because of massive volume.
Sorry, yes, imminent was what I was going for.... but eminent works too.
Like I have said, I can not wait to see how this ends!
It can not be good, there are way too many powers that be that don't want this to happen. The problem is that jbi is doing a fine job of their own demise without the need for outside intervention. In the plastic, recycling and waste management communities they are the poster child for why P2O is not commercially viable.
If the powers that be wanted anything it is exactly what JBI is... proof of failure, grand scale negative profits fuel sales and a downward spiral of proving unsuccessful.
If they ever get their act together and make any positive progress you will know it by the swift entrance of outside suppression.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
IS JBI A SCAM?
Or can the JBI process be made commercially viable?
The key here is timing...
If reality became obvious and unattainable levels of success were still promoted, then it's a scam.
If reality was known before ever embarking on the project and unattainable levels of success were still promoted, then it's a scam.
If this is a startup based on solid realistic expectations of success and it were to be promoted as such then it would be incumbent upon the directors of the company to be forthright with their realistic expectations and to put a stop to the false unattainable levels of success.
From what I have read from as early as 2009, The company was being touted by JB as being immediately profitable. That there were tons of tapes to be read and profited from and then the tapes would be turned into fuel at no cost since the tapes were essentially free feedstock.
Then the story went on to say that the world would pay TRTN to take feedstock to process for fuel.
Then there would be thousands of machines franchised all over the world generating huge amounts of revenue.
All that was needed to start this massive amount of profit was the sale of a few shares of stock to raise a little seed money and in short order (within merely months) this grand plan would be an overnight success.
Maybe that was all real.
What happened??? True reality set in and it was discovered that improper planning, unrealistic expectations, underestimations and directed resistance were not going to allow this outlandish dream ever see the light of day.
At what point was reality in contrast with the spoken words that were surely directed to sell stock? The scam is defined by the timing of knowledge and the action of misrepresentation.
It should be crystal clear to anyone that saw this develop from the start that expectations have not been met. It is even more revealing that there are those that continue to spin the failures and move the goals in a way that attempts to perpetuate the dream in any way possible in order to hold relevance and derive hope of wild riches if only you hold out just a little more hope in bigger and better 'what ifs' and simply pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
This saga has promised grandeur repeatedly and fallen short every time. Each new day brings just one more promise and one more failure from yesterdays promise. The question that has to be asked is when was it known that the promise was over inflated?
If the knowledge of not being commercially viable from turning free tapes into fuel was realized back when tapes were free and the machine was cheap and the timeline was only months... and then this was promoted on an ever grander scale for four years to the tune of $55,000,000.... then its a scam.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
JBI SHOOTING FOR $10 A BARREL!
Sorry, I don’t have a lot of time today….
However,
I think I see the problem here-
IF there is ANY factuality to the student’s thesis we can extrapolate the following;
80/20 #2 and naphtha
70/30 #6 and naphtha
4.4brls per ton production (wow, that's all what a reduction)
Which works out to;
4.4brls = 182.6 gallons
70% = 127.82 gallons of #6
30% = 54.78 gallons of naphtha
80% = 146.8 gallons of #2
20% = 36.52 gallons of naphtha
If we apply the numbers from the 10K we get;
70% = 127.82 gallons of #6…………241.58
30% = 54.78 gallons of naphtha………52.04
……………………………………….293.62
80% = 146.8 gallons of #2…………..385.65
20% = 36.52 gallons of naphtha………34.69
……………………………………….420.35
From the 10K we are brought to believe that it costs 2.09 per gallon or 381.71
Subtract the cost to make;
#6 and you get -88.01 per ton of plastic or -$20.00 per barrel
#2 and you get 38.71 per ton of plastic or $8.80 per barrel
So perhaps the misunderstanding is that JBI is shooting for MAKING $10 a barrel (profit)
NOT
Making fuel FOR $10 a barrel.
Boy, I feel a lot better knowing that this was all just a simple misunderstanding.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Thanks WATERLOOO for posting that paper...
The truth comes out eventually.
I think this paper is a major trip-up in this saga.
It either proves without a doubt that;
1. JB is having trouble keeping track of overinflated past guidance.
2. The promoters have way over done the positive spin.
3. The entire basis of the business has made some serious negative digression.
At this point I believe it is irrelevant which is true (unless you were digging for facts to peruse a civil case)... Any one of the three of these points that seems to be revealed in the data is a major blow to public sentiment. Reality vs perception are coming closer together to align with the current financials.
The story and the truth can be seen clearly here with this data and I bet if you take away the 'story' suddenly all the bickering over the reality matches up with the financials and the bickering stops.
Someone help me out here, I'm busy and in a hurry and I'm not sure if I got this point across completely and clearly... tnx
Sorry for the mistake in post #220002 I meant $280/ton
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Very nice reality check here P MO...
As I said she had to get her data from somewhere... and it seems that it came right from the horses mouth.
As I have been indicating, the SAIC report is obsolete, riddled with undocumented variables and the extrapolations from the basis are essentially overinflated and incorrect. This demonstrates that exactly.
Based on this it is easy to see how much propaganda has been falsely skewed to unrealistic positive levels that contrast reality.
Very grave reality... couple this with only $280/brl and I really don't see JBI getting anywhere fast...
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=86231800
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Quick response...
Snow,
MORE MATH PROBLEMS
Bottom Line: JBII NEGATIVE PROFIT FUEL SALES
Bottom Line: JBII NO CPF
Bottom Line: JBII NO SOLID BASIS... ONLY SPECULATION
Bottom Line: JBII NOT ABLE TO PROVE COMMERCIAL VIABILITY
Bottom Line: JBII SOCKS KNOCKED OFF NOW ALL STANDING AROUND IN BARE FEET
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Black's Law Dictionary-
Hearsay;
A term applied to that species of testimony given by a witness whorelates, not what he knows personally, but what others have told him, or what he hasheard said by others. Ilopt v. Utah, 110 U. S. 574, 4 Sup. Ct. 202. 28 L. Ed. 202; Morellv. Morell, 157 Ind. 170, 00 N. E. 1002; Stockton v. Williams, 1 Doug. (Mich.) 570;People v. Kraft, 01 Hun, 474, 30 N. Y. Supp. 1034.Hearsay evidence is that which does not derive its value solely from the credit of thewitness, but rests mainly on the veracity and competency of other persons. The verynature of the evidence shows its weakness, and it is admitted only in specified casesfrom necessity. Code Ga. 1882
The hearsay rule is a rule of evidence which prohibits admitting testimony or documents into evidence when the statements contained therein are offered to prove their truth and the maker of the statements is not able to testify about it in court. Hearsay is "second-hand" information. Because the person who supposedly knew the facts is not in court to give testimony, the trier of fact cannot judge the demeanor and credibility of the alleged first-hand witness, and the other party's lawyer cannot cross-examine him or her. Therefore, there is a constitutional due process danger that it deprives the other side of an opportunity to confront and cross-examine the "real" witness who originally saw or heard something.
JBI itself is the only credible first hand witness that can provide irrefutably that they have sold fuel to US Steel.
JBI has not made any irrefutable statements regarding the sale of fuel to US Steel.
JBI has not provided evidence to support the hearsay that has been provided by second hand or third parties. There is no way to 'cross-examine' the third parties and therefore any hearsay evidence provided by them is inadmissible as hearsay.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
The problem is that the SAIC report fails to provide the entire picture.
To begin, it is based on outdated equipment, operations and methodology. Changes to these things have not been proven, evaluated, assessed or tested by SAIC. Therefore the SAIC report is obsolete AND as JBI has irrefutably indicated, the SAIC report can not be relied upon back then. It is no longer a valid assessment of current state and therefore can not be relied upon now either.
Second and most conclusive, the SAIC report was extrapolated under the premise that plastic was FREE. JBI has irrefutably stated in the most recent 10K that they will pay for plastic. The cost for feedstock has not been provided in a clear enough fashion necessary to draw any irrefutable conclusions and therefore can not be applied to an obsolete SAIC report to make any solid conclusions. The added cost of the use of HTF (if it really has any value to actually be used) is an added expense that has not been defined. The basis of its use creates a number of added variables that also have not been addressed. Logically speaking, the addition of HTF displaces plastic... to what degree? how much less plastic is in the process due to the presence of HTF? Assumptions and positive speculation do not draw any irrefutable conclusions. The the throughput, volume, output and costs are all unknowns that are in no way addressed by anything except speculation.
In summary, the SAIC report is obsolete and the cost values are unknown. Speculation of the most positive fashion is simply... speculation. It is anyone's guess at this point and there is no irrefutable validation to demonstrate otherwise by SAIC or from JBI in its deficient guidance.
note the correct use of the word irrefutable
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
IN OUR OPINION IT WOULD BE GREAT AND WE ARE VERY EXCITED TO BELIEVE THAT JBII COULD POSSIBLY SELL FUEL TO US STEEL (NYSE: X)
Definition;
Irrefutable: something that is impossible to prove wrong, or that cannot be denied.
Statement;
JBII IRREFUTABLY SELLING FUEL TO US STEEL (NYSE: X)
Evidence Cited;
Opinion-
(not too shabby)
Hearsay-
"Well today received an email from the area manager that 3 trucks were delivered this weekend [from JBII to US Steel]"
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=86103404
Speculation-
JBI executive Bob Molodynia looks on while a stream of thin brown liquid pours into an oil barrel.
”You could tap this right now and it’s ready to go," Molodynia says. "That’s a number six fuel, that’s what a lot of what US Steel uses, a lot of major companies, that’s what they pay the big bucks for, right there.”
http://www.voanews.com/content/plastic-could-fuel-us-move-away-from-foreign-oil/1536076.html
Speculation-
"The process rearranges the plastic’s hydrocarbon chains until it becomes a No. 6 fuel, a type of oil favored by U.S. steel companies. Bordynuik’s process is highly efficient, with 90 percent of plastic being recycled into oil."
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=73908482
Hearsay-
"had a local ask one of the tanker truck drivers as he was headed out the gate where he was hauling the fuel off to....READY FOR THIS?.....he said he was delivering it to US STEEL....."
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=81304336
Hearsay-
"One of our us steel boys followed 2 tankers of jbi fuel right in the gates at Nanticote"
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=83670174
Where is the undeniable proof?
What facts support the irrefutability?
Opinions, third party hearsay, and zealous speculation are hardly something that is impossible to prove wrong, or that cannot be denied.
Here is the corrected statement based on the evidence cited-
IN OUR OPINION IT WOULD BE GREAT AND WE ARE VERY EXCITED TO BELIEVE THAT JBII COULD POSSIBLY SELL FUEL TO US STEEL (NYSE: X)
But then the issue of selling #6 fuel at a loss completely deflates the excitement and negates the benefit of making the statement.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
It took all morning and that's it???
Isn't it obvious that there is civil unrest among the masses?
With the current developments revealed in the 10K there is no more FREE plastic basis for numbers, no more $10/brl and no obvious path to commercial viability.
It took 4 years to get to this point.
More than a year to get #3 built and still not online...
You really believe there is enough money to BEGIN the RockTenn project? How long will that take starting at ground 0? How much will that cost? Who will invest in a lopsided deal? Add that expense to the current burn rate and its game over.
Even that 'pipe' dream looks like a long shot...
even if the technology was 100% proven and there were no 'processing' issues with the alleged monofill plastic.
Even then, the RockTen deal requires JBI to front all the money and only gain 20% of the output... which they are not yet able to show that they can survive on 100% of negative gross fuel sales. How can the investment be recouped when the margins are not there?
How does JBI not run out of money and support before this ever takes a step forward?
If it did move forward... how is it a sound business investment when the risk outweighs the reward???
Silence... the lack of answers,
the sound of vacuum...
once everything has been sucked up,
there is nothing left to hear.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
My apologies, I was unaware of the change to the catalyst and was under the impression that JB had discovered something 'revolutionary' lol
Perhaps the situation has simply 'evolved' and time slipped away too quickly and that is why JBI is in the situation that they are in. Missteps, shortfalls, underestimations and a lack of proper planning has created the situation.
This doesn't change the fact that a solid foundation is necessary first and foremost in a legit business.
The technical challenges really needed to be addressed BEFORE any of the touted conclusions were proclaimed. This goes back to mentality, business like manner and assertive proper guidance which would have been already in place if the order was followed from the start.
You can draw one of two conclusions from JBIs current position-
1. The company is flying by the seat of its pants and has no solid foundation or clue.
2. The technological hype was utilized to generate revenue in the form of stock sales, salaries and corporate benefits.
If you are of the first mindset then there is an obvious path that needs to be followed in order to right the ship.
If you are of the second then you can see that the end is near and a lot of scrambling is happening to prevent going down with the ship.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
SECRET CATALYST REVEALED?
OK, how about the ever popular secret catalyst topic?
Any discussion?
It has been stated that JB found his 'secret catalyst' on an old computer tape.
Perhaps the idea that the catalyst was discovered in the 'data' on that tape is erroneous.
It is possibly more likely that the 'discovery' was 'on' the tape and not in the 'data'.
What I mean by this is that many catalysts used today are derived from different compositions of metals. Digital tapes can utilize metal films to magnetically store data.
Could the 'secret catalyst' simply be the metal film itself?
Hmmmm, I believe there are companies that hold patents on these forms of metal film catalysts.
One more concern for worry for the 'JBI technology' moving forward.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
No one cares to discuss the JBI TODO LIST?
Is silence golden?
Or is there simply a lack of valid rebuttal and unanimous agreement?
JBI TODO LIST
Here is a my opinion on what JBI needs to do in order to get their act together;
1. Solve the MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM
Work must be done to correct the supply feedstock limitations and permit/regulation restrictions. It is impossible to operate a P2O process to produce fuel in a commercially viable manner when you have restrictions that limit your feedstock availability so drastically. Many other companies worldwide have the ability to process ALL types of plastic WITH contaminants. This is the key to reducing cost and actually attaining the ability to use FREE, unwashed, unsorted plastic straight from a landfill.
2. Secure INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
In a field of ‘emerging technology’ the single most important ‘value’ of a company is their technology. PATENTS are the only way to prove value. A patent provides assurance and vindication that the technology is sound and on the leading edge. This allows licensing and partnerships to be established in profitable confidence. Without IP protection the company has no vindication for its technology basis and is at significant risk and can not be considered ‘whole’ in an emerging technology field.
3. Create significant POLITICAL ALLIANCE
Work must be done to identify the factors at play that are suppressing plastic to fuel. Alliances must be formed with ‘threatened’ entities and inroads in government acceptance must be established. Companies like Agilys and KIOR have played this card well which has opened many closed doors and removed roadblocks that otherwise prevent progress.
4. Repair NEGATIVE IMAGE
It appears to me that JB and his minions have and continue to overinflate, over promise and paint a utopian image of undue confidence. This has hurt the company. When the bar is set to unattainable levels and actual results fall short, the image and confidence levels of the public is soured. Unjustified confidence, references to proven unattainable goals, repetitiously citing obsolete and erroneously derived third party validation, false innuendo, manipulation of documented financials for positive spin and the use of dated pictures and graphics that are not in keeping with current reality breed significant contempt and dilute any 'actual' progress.
5. Instill CONFIDENCE in a solid well defined business plan.
Providing a realistic set of milestones and list of goals with an associated timeline is the only professional way to achieve confidence in a developing process. Policing and enforcing the company’s current position and ‘official’ business strategy is required. Preventing the promotion of an unrealistic company image that uses materials, pictures, logo’s and even the company name itself (that should be at the very least copyrighted and or trademarked) would go far to correct the damage that is being done on a daily basis and aid in realistic expectations that must NEVER fall short of delivering on a well informed basis of detailed guidance. The business plan should address public relations in a manner consistent with the company’s ‘actual’ state of affairs. Admitting problems and providing insight as to the cause and solutions are par for the course. This must be done proactively. PR is a powerful tool if used correctly…. It is an ugly monster when it is not.
There is much more that needs to be done on a technology level, however; without a solid business foundation the opportunity to ‘tinker’ will come to pass.
In a startup company results are not always tied to the bottom line unless focus on the bottom line is derived from nurtured expectation. When a teenager mentality is utilized, the company assumes that image. This isn’t high school… immaturity must be replaced with wisdom, lackluster attitude must be replaced with focus and detailed, clearly stated planning, ego driven immortality and all powerfulness must be replaced with a sense of and appearance to realism. The company needs to accept the ever present possibility of failure and demonstrate respect for it in the form of a solid, well executed business plan that addresses the steps and precautions being taken to minimize risk and clearly state the actions being taken to avoid it. A list of reasons for failure, barrage of excuses, unforeseen delays and new sprung changes just doesn’t cut it.
Its time for JBI and its crew to grow up and assume the position of conducting business in a businesslike manner that is incumbent upon them.
If these things happen they too can hold a presence in their field that is liken to a company such as KOIR, Agilyx or even Apple for that matter. If not… the end will come sooner than they think.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
SECRET CATALYST
Just an idle thought...
It has been stated that JB found his 'secret catalyst' on an old computer tape.
Perhaps the idea that the catalyst was discovered in the 'data' on that tape is erroneous.
It is possibly more likely that the 'discovery' was 'on' the tape and not in the 'data'.
What I mean by this is that many catalysts used today are derived from different compositions of metals. Digital tapes can utilize metal films to magnetically store data.
Could the 'secret catalyst' simply be the metal film itself?
Hmmmm, I believe there are companies that hold patents on these forms of metal film catalysts.
One more concern for worry for the 'JBI technology' moving forward.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
ROCKY ROAD TO JBI SUCCESS
To answer your question Rev-
PLASTIC IS DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT FOR VALUE
Sorry LR, my English is not the best and auto spell check is not always the most helpful tool…
Ok, ST, here is your clarification on the processing and a brief overview of the sources of concern and confusion…
FLP, naphtha typically is produced heavily at the start of a batch P2O process, then the shift to lighter gasses… in a continuous P2O process the amount of naphtha and gasses is a continuous percentage that is based on the types of feedstock and the amount of residual char vs the temp of the cracking. A catalyst can specifically suppress the production of heaver outputs and exchange them for lighter such as a reduction of #6, 5, 4 and 3 in order to produce more #2, however this leads to an increase in the production of naphtha and gasses. From the JBI patent application it is interesting that they indicate that they use a ‘recycle’ technique (easy way out, armature) to redirect heavier, undesired output back into the reactor for recracking which leads to more production of naphtha and gasses and an overall reduction in desired output since there is a % loss for every cracking cycle.
With the method and equipment that JBI is using it is not possible to avoid the production of naphtha and gasses. Since JBI classifies naphtha and gasses as ‘fuel’ production (which it is, but it is not ‘most optimal’) it is difficult to break out their actual desired output efficiency. The numbers provided by JBI do not allow enough information necessary to assess throughput, ‘recycling’ of undesired output or increase in the production of gasses which all have a direct impact on overall efficiency values. For example; if 20% of output is redirected back into the reactor, that is a loss of 20% output for that given time period, it is also a 20% reduction of ‘new’ feedstock that can enter the process for a net process decline in efficiency of 40%. If the naphtha and gasses output is at 30% and this redirect occurs it adds another 6% increase to the total naphtha and gasses output which raises the overall naphtha and gasses output to 36%... AND there will be some percentage of the 20% that was recycled that will also be recycled back so the decrease efficiency continues and thus the overall efficiency falls until it stabilizes at perhaps 45-50%. Over time, the overall output of #2 is diminished as the combination of decreased throughput and increased production of naphtha and gasses increases. The changing variables of feedstock, residual char amount, ‘recycling %’ and time make this a very complex equation that can vary substantially.
.
______________________
For all of the reasons that it is difficult to obtain plastic from a waste stream for recycling would also apply to obtaining plastic from a waste stream to put it into JBI units.
The single biggest issue that creates the most troubling problem here is that JBI units can not handle mixed plastic or plastic with contaminants. (see CONTAMINANT ISSUES- section below) Putting plastic with contaminants into the machine will cause fouling, bad gasses, bad emissions, and variations and contaminants in the fuel output as well as complex changes on a molecular level of the fuel that can render it out of spec.
In order to run the JBI machines it is necessary to sort the plastic (since they are restricted by regulations that only allow certain specific types of plastic in order to prevent the creation of hazardous output) and obtain a good, contaminate free stream of specific types of plastic. If you can achieve that you now have plastic that has value on the recycling market (more value than the fuel that you can make).
If you have a sorted, contaminate free supply of post industrial plastic, it is already worth more on the recycle market than it is worth trying to turn it into fuel. (and spending $55,000,000 and 4 years with no results)
Why the entire premise of JBI’s plastic to fuel is FALSE-
The first problem is in the design and permit restrictions…
The JBI machines can ONLY use #2 #4 #5 and #7 plastic (and only a very limited amount of #7).
This means the plastic MUST be SORTED unlike other companies that can handle ALL plastics.
When it comes to SORTED plastic, you get what you pay for.
If you want contaminated mixed plastic that will foul up your machines and break the set emission standards, sure you can get truckloads at (only) $600 a ton.
If you want good, sorted plastic you will pay at least $750 a ton.
If you HAVE good sorted plastic you can SELL it for on average $750 a ton
(more than the value of the fuel you could make from it!)
If it (only) takes 8 lbs to make a gallon
and (on the best days) you get 6 US brls/ton
IT WILL COST $125/brl JUST IN PLASTIC!
OR, another way to look at it- If you just sort and sell the good plastic that is needed
to run the machines, you could MAKE MORE MONEY!
now add your $10 overhead cost (yeah, right, more like $55mill)
and you are selling $110/brl fuel for a $25 loss per barrel!!!
This math is not double dipping, or accounting for ANY of the long list of other issues previously pointed out AND it is the BEST CASE SCENARIO
(meaning min price for good sorted plastic, max yield for the process, round UP to make it juicier, minimum overhead cost, and at a sell price of $110/brl which is NOT what a WHOLESALE buyer would pay btw).
And if I was RockTenn why on earth would I put plastic in a machine (that holds no IP advantage for my business model and could make me the target of an infringement lawsuit) to turn it into anything.... and lose time and money.... when I could sell the plastic on the open market FOR MORE MONEY and do nothing to it? Why does RockTenn landfill plastic now you ask… simple- IT COST MORE TO SEPARATE IT THAN ITS WORTH!
Just another additional added point to all of the other problems....
Landfill plastic cost time and money to extract it,
once its extracted it has MORE VALUE AS RECYCLED PLASTIC than it has turning it into fuel.
http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing
Note; JBIs maximum (if everything was perfect) fuel value per ton of plastic = $660
Between the cost of feedstock and the cost to process it, and turn it into fuel…
The opportunity for profit is simply not there. (not commercially viable)
Even with free plastic, the best recyclers have a cost of $500-$1000 per ton to process plastic.
Recyclers are classified as ‘recyclers’ which allows them to collect gov subsidies to recycle plastic.
JBI is not classified as a recycler.
When you are permitted to ONLY use non recyclable plastic and you can ONLY put half of the non recyclable plastic in the machine or you create toxins and deadly corrosive gasses that will rust and foul up your machine and break emission regulations... then you have MORE PROBLEMS.
Once you spend the time and money to extract HALF of the non recyclable plastic that you can use, what do you do with the other half? Pay to put it in a landfill (ANOTHER UNMENTIONED ADDED COST) and if you actually started doing this on a regular basis or somehow managed to run at maximum capacity, in a years time you will have dumped well over 100,000 tons of UNUSABLE plastic into a landfill! (that would put you on the map as one of the biggest plastic contributors to negative environmental impact in the state of NY if not the country,… talk about bad PR for a company attempting to gain an earth friendly image)
I have not seen or heard of ANY plastic processing equipment or methods mentioned for JBI... if they were doing this it would be a good idea to let them know that they could qualify for recycling status if they sold the plastic that they processed... and between the break even cost of doing this and the recycling subsides they could get, they might just make a buck or two... oh, that's right, that would get used to pay for the dumping license they would need to get rid of that much BAD plastic that they can't use!
In the end it will become obvious why making oil for only $10 a brl on a commercial level is a misguided fallacy... (as the recent 10K has demonstrated)
And why waste management companies don’t find it commercially viable to sort and sell plastic headed to a landfill…
and after 4 years and $55mill it should have become even more obvious that...
MAKING FUEL FOR ONLY $10/brl IT IS A MISGUIDANCE.
(Why perpetual motion machines don’t work-
energy in = energy out with loss… ($55,000,000 loss and growing)
THERE IS NO WAY TO GET MORE OUT THAN YOU PUT IN!)
THE PLASTIC HAS A VALUE GREATER THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL YOU CAN PRODUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
and government recycling subsidies make sure that this holds true
CONTAMINANT ISSUES-
Put anything except clean sorted plastic in the machine and see if your stack test passes emissions.
Better yet, see if there are any survivors in the plant.
Accidentally mixing the smallest amount of the wrong type of plastic, or contaminants such as residual bleach, fertilizer and farm related chemicals, salt, inks, paints, adhesives, acrylic or teflon based additives, pigments or dyes, industrial solvents or basic household cleaners will produce really nasty outputs such as-
Hydrogen cyanide (with the alternate archaic name of prussic acid) is an inorganic compound with chemical formula HCN. It is a colorless, extremely poisonous liquid that boils slightly above room temperature at 26 °C (79 °F). Hydrogen cyanide is a linear molecule, with a triple bond between carbon and nitrogen. A minor tautomer of HCN is HNC, hydrogen isocyanide.
Hydrogen cyanide is weakly acidic with a pKa of 9.2. It partially ionizes in water solution to give the cyanide anion, CN–. A solution of hydrogen cyanide in water is called hydrocyanic acid. The salts of hydrogen cyanide are known as cyanides.
HCN has a faint, bitter, almond-like odor that some people are unable to detect owing to a genetic trait. The volatile compound has been used as inhalation rodenticide and human poison. Cyanide ions interfere with iron-containing respiratory enzymes.
or
Hydrogen sulfide (H2S)
All hydrocarbons can produce hydrogen sulfide gas as a by product of pyrolysis. Hydrogen sulfide (British English: hydrogen sulphide) is the chemical compound with the formula H2S. It is a colorless, very poisonous, flammable gas with the characteristic foul odor of rotten eggs.
or
Hydrogen Chloride gas (HCL)
The compound hydrogen chloride has the chemical formula HCl. At room temperature, it is a colorless gas, which forms white fumes of hydrochloric acid upon contact with atmospheric humidity. Hydrochloric acid, the aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride, is also commonly given the formula HCl. Because of its acidic nature, hydrogen chloride is corrosive, particularly in the presence of moisture. It will rust the inside of the reactor very quickly and anything metal in the area of exposure.
or
Dioxins (Polychlorinated dibenzodioxins) and other Dioxin-like compounds
Chlorinated hydrocarbons produce HCl upon combustion almost quantitatively related to their chlorine content. Extensive studies in Europe indicate that the chlorine found in emitted dioxins is not derived from HCl in the flue gases. Instead, most dioxins arise in the condensed solid phase by the reaction of inorganic chlorides with graphitic structures in char-containing ash particles. Copper acts as a catalyst for these reactions. Studies of household waste burning indicate consistent increases in dioxin generation with increasing PVC and other chlorinated hydrocarbon concentrations.
or
Hydrogen fluoride gas (HF) is a chemical compound with the formula HF. This colorless gas is the principal industrial source of fluorine, often in the aqueous form as hydrofluoric acid. HF is widely used in the petrochemical industry and is a component of many superacids. Hydrogen fluoride boils just below room temperature whereas the other hydrogen halides condense at much lower temperatures. Unlike the other hydrogen halides, HF is lighter than air and diffuses relatively quickly through porous substances. Hydrogen fluoride is a highly dangerous gas, forming corrosive and penetrating hydrofluoric acid upon contact with tissue. The gas can also cause blindness by rapid destruction of the corneas.
or
Toxic by-products of pyrolysis of PTFE (teflon)
The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases and a sublimate. One of these gasses is Hydrogen fluoride gas (HF).
Upon contact with moisture, including tissue, hydrogen fluoride immediately converts to hydrofluoric acid, which is highly corrosive and toxic, and requires immediate medical attention upon exposure.
And many many more...
JBI has a very specific permit and EPA regulation that prohibit contamination going into the reactors for a reason. To prevent the creation of deadly off gasses which can be produced by the introduction of the simplest of contaminants into the reactor. How they get away with not having a scrubber at least for the sake of safety is unimaginable.
I wonder what kind of press coverage JBI will get once they try putting contaminated plastic in their reactor and poison NF. How about the thought of cancer causing dioxins emanating from the plant?
Go ahead, try running unsorted unwashed plastic with no scrubbers and see how long the units run before the place is shut down and quarantined off. maybe that's what all the delays have been about???
Try to SPECIFICALLY sort, and decontaminate landfill bound plastic that has no value and see how much cost is added... By time you have USEABLE plastic it will have cost MORE to convert it from landfill bound than it will produce in fuel value, which means NO PROFIT.
All of what I have been stating can be verified by simply looking at JBIs financials.
The pattern of falling short of commercial viability is black and white.
Simply extracting the numbers you like for promotion does not change the fact that overall JBI has Negative Profit Fuel Sales.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
THE ILLUSIVE UNICORN
PLASTIC IS DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT FOR VALUE
ok, ST, here is your clarification on the processing and a brief overview of the sources of concern and confusion... now I only have one post left for today so if I leave you or anyone with further questions hanging I'll have to get back to you on Monday...
For all of the reasons that it is difficult to obtain plastic from a waste stream for recycling would also apply to obtaining plastic from a waste stream to put it into JBI units.
The single biggest issue that creates the most troubling problem here is that JBI units can not handle mixed plastic or plastic with contaminates. (see CONTAMINATE ISSUES- section below) Putting plastic with contaminates into the machine will cause fouling, bad gasses, bad emissions, and variations and contaminates in the fuel output as well as complex changes on a molecular level of the fuel that can render it out of spec.
In order to run the JBI machines it is necessary to sort the plastic and obtain a good, contaminate free stream of specific types of plastic. If you can achieve that you now have plastic that has value on the recycling market (more value than the fuel that you can make).
If you have a sorted, contaminate free supply of post industrial plastic, it is already worth more on the recycle market than it is worth trying to turn it into fuel. (and spending $55,000,000 and 4 years with no results)
This is why only 8% of the country's plastic is recycled.... it is cheaper to dispose of it in a landfill than to spend the time and money required to make it 'most optimal' and have something worth an average of $750 (more than fuel at $660) because the cost exceeds this value.
If JBI can find a reliable source of non-recyclable plastic they will be in competition with recyclers for this supply and the recyclers have a subsidize unfair advantage.
Why the entire premise of JBI’s plastic to fuel is FALSE-
The first problem is in the design and permit restrictions…
The JBI machines can ONLY use #2 #4 #5 and #7 plastic (and only a very limited amount of #7).
This means the plastic MUST be SORTED unlike other companies that can handle ALL plastics.
When it comes to SORTED plastic, you get what you pay for.
If you want contaminated mixed plastic that will foul up your machines and break the set emission standards, sure you can get truckloads at (only) $600 a ton.
If you want good, sorted plastic you will pay at least $750 a ton.
If you HAVE good sorted plastic you can SELL it for $750 a ton
(more than the value of the fuel you could make from it!)
If it (only) takes 8 lbs to make a gallon
and (on the best days) you get 6 US brls/ton
IT WILL COST $125/brl JUST IN PLASTIC!
OR, another way to look at it- If you just sort and sell the good plastic that is needed
to run the machines, you could MAKE MORE MONEY!
now add your $10 overhead cost (yeah, right, more like $55mill)
and you are selling $110/brl fuel for a $25 loss per barrel!!!
This math is not double dipping, or accounting for ANY of the long list of other issues previously pointed out AND it is the BEST CASE SCENARIO
(meaning min price for good sorted plastic, max yield for the process, round UP to make it juicier, minimum overhead cost, and at a sell price of $110/brl which is NOT what a WHOLESALE buyer would pay btw).
And if I was RockTenn why on earth would I put plastic in a machine (that holds no IP advantage for my business model and could make me the target of an infringement lawsuit) to turn it into anything.... and lose time and money.... when I could sell the plastic on the open market FOR MORE MONEY and do nothing to it? Why does RockTenn landfill plastic now you ask… simple- IT COST MORE TO SEPARATE IT THAN ITS WORTH!
Just another additional added point to all of the other problems....
Landfill plastic cost time and money to extract it,
once its extracted it has MORE VALUE AS RECYCLED PLASTIC than it has turning it into fuel.
http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing
When you are permitted to ONLY use non-recyclable plastic and you can ONLY put half of the non-recyclable plastic in the machine or you create toxins and deadly corrosive gasses that will rust and foul up your machine and break emission regulations... then you have MORE PROBLEMS.
Once you spend the time and money to extract HALF of the non-recyclable plastic that you can use, what do you do with the other half? Pay to put it in a landfill (ANOTHER UNMENTIONED ADDED COST) and if you actually started doing this on a regular basis or somehow managed to run at maximum capacity, in a years time you will have dumped well over 100,000 tons of UNUSABLE plastic into a landfill! (that would put you on the map as one of the biggest plastic contributors to negative environmental impact in the state of NY if not the country,… talk about bad PR for a company attempting to gain an earth friendly image)
I have not seen or heard of ANY plastic processing equipment or methods mentioned for JBI... if they were doing this it would be a good idea to let them know that they could qualify for recycling status if they sold the plastic that they separated... and between the break even cost of doing this and the recycling subsides they could get, they might just make a buck or two... oh, that's right, that would get used to pay for the dumping license they would need to get rid of that much BAD plastic that they can't use!
In the end it will become obvious why making fuel for only $10 a brl on a commercial level is a misguided fallacy... (as revealed in the 10K)
And why waste management companies don’t find it commercially viable to sort and sell recycled plastic headed to a landfill…
and after 4 years and $55mill it should have become even more obvious that...
MAKING FUEL FOR ONLY $10/brl IT IS A MISCONCEPTION.
(Why perpetual motion machines don’t work-
energy in = energy out with loss… ($55,000,000 loss and growing)
THERE IS NO WAY TO GET MORE OUT THAN YOU PUT IN!)
THE PLASTIC HAS A VALUE GREATER THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL YOU CAN PRODUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
and government recycling subsidies make sure that this holds true
CONTAMINATE ISSUES-
Put anything except clean sorted plastic in the machine and see if your stack test passes emissions.
Better yet, see if there are any survivors in the plant.
Accidentally mixing the smallest amount of the wrong type of plastic, or contaminates such as residual bleach, fertilizer and farm related chemicals, salt, inks, paints, adhesives, acrylic or teflon based additives, pigments or dyes, industrial solvents or basic household cleaners will produce really nasty outputs such as-
Hydrogen cyanide (with the alternate archaic name of prussic acid) is an inorganic compound with chemical formula HCN. It is a colorless, extremely poisonous liquid that boils slightly above room temperature at 26 °C (79 °F). Hydrogen cyanide is a linear molecule, with a triple bond between carbon and nitrogen. A minor tautomer of HCN is HNC, hydrogen isocyanide.
Hydrogen cyanide is weakly acidic with a pKa of 9.2. It partially ionizes in water solution to give the cyanide anion, CN–. A solution of hydrogen cyanide in water is called hydrocyanic acid. The salts of hydrogen cyanide are known as cyanides.
HCN has a faint, bitter, almond-like odor that some people are unable to detect owing to a genetic trait. The volatile compound has been used as inhalation rodenticide and human poison. Cyanide ions interfere with iron-containing respiratory enzymes.
or
Hydrogen sulfide (H2S)
All hydrocarbons can produce hydrogen sulfide gas as a by product of pyrolysis. Hydrogen sulfide (British English: hydrogen sulphide) is the chemical compound with the formula H2S. It is a colorless, very poisonous, flammable gas with the characteristic foul odor of rotten eggs.
or
Hydrogen Chloride gas (HCL)
The compound hydrogen chloride has the chemical formula HCl. At room temperature, it is a colorless gas, which forms white fumes of hydrochloric acid upon contact with atmospheric humidity. Hydrochloric acid, the aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride, is also commonly given the formula HCl. Because of its acidic nature, hydrogen chloride is corrosive, particularly in the presence of moisture. It will rust the inside of the reactor very quickly and anything metal in the area of exposure.
or
Dioxins (Polychlorinated dibenzodioxins) and other Dioxin-like compounds
Chlorinated hydrocarbons produce HCl upon combustion almost quantitatively related to their chlorine content. Extensive studies in Europe indicate that the chlorine found in emitted dioxins is not derived from HCl in the flue gases. Instead, most dioxins arise in the condensed solid phase by the reaction of inorganic chlorides with graphitic structures in char-containing ash particles. Copper acts as a catalyst for these reactions. Studies of household waste burning indicate consistent increases in dioxin generation with increasing PVC and other chlorinated hydrocarbon concentrations.
or
Hydrogen fluoride gas (HF) is a chemical compound with the formula HF. This colorless gas is the principal industrial source of fluorine, often in the aqueous form as hydrofluoric acid. HF is widely used in the petrochemical industry and is a component of many superacids. Hydrogen fluoride boils just below room temperature whereas the other hydrogen halides condense at much lower temperatures. Unlike the other hydrogen halides, HF is lighter than air and diffuses relatively quickly through porous substances. Hydrogen fluoride is a highly dangerous gas, forming corrosive and penetrating hydrofluoric acid upon contact with tissue. The gas can also cause blindness by rapid destruction of the corneas.
or
Toxic by-products of pyrolysis of PTFE (teflon)
The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases and a sublimate. One of these gasses is Hydrogen fluoride gas (HF).
Upon contact with moisture, including tissue, hydrogen fluoride immediately converts to hydrofluoric acid, which is highly corrosive and toxic, and requires immediate medical attention upon exposure.
And many many more...
JBI has a very specific permit and EPA regulation that prohibit contamination going into the reactors for a reason. To prevent the creation of deadly off gasses which can be produced by the introduction of the simplest of contaminates into the reactor. How they get away with not having a scrubber at least for the sake of safety is unimaginable.
I wonder what kind of press coverage JBI will get once they try putting contaminated plastic in their reactor and poison NF. How about the thought of cancer causing dioxins emanating from the plant?
Go ahead, try running unsorted unwashed plastic with no scrubbers and see how long the units run before the place is shut down and quarantined off. maybe that's what all the delays have been about??? I see that they are required to shut down the processor and have DEC come out if they have so much as a slight PH change in output... major delays and built in stoppages to prevent even the slightest of contaminates from being processed. This should be a question for the CC- How many of these shutdowns have occurred due to DEC reg infractions.
Try to SPECIFICALLY sort, and decontaminate landfill bound plastic that has no value and see how much cost is added... By time you have USEABLE plastic it will have cost MORE to convert it from non-recyclable than it will produce in fuel value, which means NO PROFIT.
I hope this helps clarify "the confusion in this thread".
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
I think you are catching on!
The unicorn has been defined.
The problem for JBI is exactly that, labels... regulations... permit compliance.
The MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM is in the logistics of classification and cost of those logistics.
Plastic has value.
JBI needs that plastic.
That plastic comes at a price.
That plastic needs processed... at a cost.
That cost and that price are MORE THAN THE FUEL IS WORTH!
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
I PREFER REALITY TO FALSE INNUENDO
This data is riddled with misconceptions and taken completely out of context. In many cases it in fact supports my point.
If it was a simple matter of shredding JBI could not use it. The permit states that JBI is required to use non-recyclable plastic.
Once again back to finding a unicorn.
The feedstock that JBI needs is the same as recyclable plastic.
JBI must take non-recyclable plastic and process it just like the recycle industry does.
The recycle industry makes it work because they are subsidized to do it.
JBI must do the same as the recycle industry, hence they have the same challenges and costs yet none of the subsidy benefits.
JBI must then add additional cost to P2O the plastic which takes it further away from a profitability level AND do it all to make a product that has a value LOWER than the recycle plastic value.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Completely missing the point....
Plastic has a value.
JBI admits that they must now pay for plastic.
Are you suggesting that JBI is paying for FREE plastic?
Are you indicating that JBI is buying plastic for less than recyclers pay when they purchase waste plastic to process it into recycled plastic?
Where do you think this purchased plastic coming from?
Only 8% of the country's plastic is recycled... recycle companies purchase only 8% of waste to turn it into recycled plastic.
This is the plastic that JBI needs... they are vying for a fraction of the 8% so they can process it to make it useable in their machines.
They are in competition with recyclers for the same waste plastic.
It costs a recycler around $1000 per ton to process this plastic. This cost is offset by gov subsidies in order to make this profitable.
How can JBI process this same plastic for less?
How can JBI buy this same plastic for less?
How can JBI do this at a profit?
MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Dolphins, Plastic and Tuna... no correlation to the value of plastic
In order to make plastic 'most optimal' for JBI machines the plastic requires processing.
The recycle industry does this now, with gov subsidies, for profit. The end result of this process is-
http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing#
Documented, real world market values for plastic.
If JBI uses plastic, processes it, and turns it into fuel...
They have an end product that has a value that is less than the documented values for plastic.
The existing market dictates the value.
The subsidies offset the processing loss for recyclers.
JBI does not qualify for subsidies.
JBI operates at a net loss.
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Firewood, the perfect analogy...
Sure you can get FREE firewood here and there
It may incur cost to make it useable
or, you can buy firewood ready to use
If you spend the time and money to make the FREE firewood salable you could turn a profit.
If you could turn that firewood into something else
In order to make it worthwhile...
The 'something else' must have a value greater than the value of firewood.
If it has a value less than the value that you could get selling it as firewood... what's the point?
If your cost to make something else is greater than the value of the firewood... what's the point?
If there is an existing market for firewood with a higher value than your 'something else' and industry already makes the 'something else' at a profit... what's the point?
Sure you can get FREE plastic here and there
It may incur cost to make it useable
or, you can buy plastic ready to use
If you spend the time and money to make the FREE plastic salable to the recycle industry you could turn a profit.
If you could turn that plastic into fuel
In order to make it worthwhile...
The fuel must have a value greater than the value of plastic.
If it has a value less than the value that you could get selling it as plastic... what's the point?
If your cost to make fuel is greater than the value of the plastic... what's the point?
If there is an existing market for plastic with a higher value than your fuel and industry already makes the fuel at a profit... what's the point?
There is an existing market for plastic
There is an existing industry that makes fuel
The value of the plastic is greater than the value of the fuel
Plastic is made from oil
Fuel is made from oil
There is no commercially viable scenario that makes the fuel that JBI can make more valuable than the plastic on the recycle market.
Sell the firewood at a profit
Sell the plastic at a profit
making 'something else' isn't profitable
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM VALIDATED
How many of my statements have been validated?
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/profile.aspx?user=379220
There is no way JBI can become commercially viable when the price of plastic is more than the price of fuel.
IMHO, JBI pumped oil through the machines just to get their numbers up for the quarter… they called it HTF but no one caught on. This left everyone speculating that this is some kind of fix for something but conveniently they never really elaborated. It’s the perfect cover since they used an excuse that this is a one time high cost but it is clear that there is no advantage in spending more on input than you get in output unless you simply needed to increase your volume numbers. Plus, it is easier to hide out in the open and easier to process than buying and hiding plastic numbers, so it gives them a more difficult to challenge cover for the obvious ploy… clever.
In the end, it has become obvious that the company misled the public about FREE plastic and $10brl, just like I said, and I said they would need to buy plastic in order to stay within emissions standards and I was absolutely right, they stated that they have no choice but to buy plastic because the FREE plastic is difficult to come by, just won’t work, it will cost them too much to use FREE plastic and it fouls up their machines, process and output, just like I said.
Remember my many posts about “The Killer is in the Logistics” and once again I was spot on, the company said in the 10K-
“we experienced some challenges in logistics”
It’s almost like they read my posts and simply confessed… amazing!
It’s really a shame that all the hype and excitement was all founded on misguidance that they have now confessed to, they admit that using unwashed, unsorted FREE plastic is problematic and that they must pay for plastic.
This means that there is no way to produce oil at $10brl.
This means that all of the references to third party validation was based on incorrect data and the $10mill/year processor is completely false.
This also means that all of the projections of incredible profit margins that really made this company look like a great investment were completely fabricated based on misguided falsehoods that have been completely ANNIHILATED by the 10K. This means that a lot of people were misled and misguided by guidance, PR’s and promotions that simply were not true.
I think this can be considered fraud and the SEC would have a serious case if they can find even the slightest reference to anyone that worked for JBI knowing the truth and yet promoting otherwise, which I don’t think will be difficult to find if they focus an investigation specifically on this topic instead of just bookkeeping fraud.
I said that JBI is obviously not trying very hard to become commercially viable or they would not have painted themselves in such a corner with all of the permit and functionality regulations and limitations. Just like I said, Agilyx has a much better chance than JBI because they focused on the P2O problems and not the hype like JBI.
Also 100% correct about this entire JBI P2O company being a farce since they have no way to turn a profit when they have to pay for plastic. The truth of the matter is so clear now, simply put, if they can get some sucker company to sell them good sorted plastic that can run in their machines for less than recycle market value that they could make more money if they just sold that plastic to a recycler at market price since market price of the cheapest plastic is more than what they could make if they turned it into fuel!
The part that amazes me the most is how people are reading into the 10K and trying to put a positive spin on it. You can clearly see that everything that I have been posting has come to be correct, yet there is a lot of diversion and unstated assumptions that are being promoted to distract everyone form THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM that I so clearly defined – There is no way to produce FUEL at a profit from plastic when the value of the plastic is higher than the value of the FUEL.
It is also clear why they have not been running the machines for any length of time… If they did… the numbers would reveal that they can not become commercially viable… The input cost of feedstock would be greater than the FUEL sales and this would shake out rather quickly, therefore they have to divert attention away from this as long as possible if they want to keep collecting paychecks.
Now, guess who is spending YOUR money based on all of the company’s well orchestrated misguidance-
Juicy Johnny and his jetset pals…
Disclaimer;
I am in no way compensated for my opinion or my posts on this site. I have no ‘secret agenda’ or personal gain that can be materialized from the act and method of my postings. I am simply a concerned, ‘outside’ interest with valid knowledge and information that I feel may be helpful. I chose to provide this information and related opinions at my own will and from the direction of no person, company or entity. My motive is to help those that may not have the background, knowledge, means or access to this information and my personal desire to gain additional knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed. I am compelled to educate and help offset the continued barrage of misleading and obscured information that I have identified here. No ill will, malice, defamation, or slander is intended in any way. All literary creativity utilized in my posts are intended as a vehicle to express my opinions. I am always open to mature discussions of substance and encourage rebuttal and enlightenment. My sincere apologies go out to anyone that is disturbed by the revelations of fact that I have conveyed in the past or may provide in the future.
Yes, but this statement does-
From the 10K;
"we made the determination that in order to obtain the most optimal feedstock on a consistent basis... we would be required to purchase this feedstock"