Plastic2Oil Inc (PTOI)

[Arthur Edward Whoof]

PLASTIC IS DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT FOR VALUE


ok, ST, here is your clarification on the processing and a brief overview of the sources of concern and confusion... now I only have one post left for today so if I leave you or anyone with further questions hanging I'll have to get back to you on Monday...


For all of the reasons that it is difficult to obtain plastic from a waste stream for recycling would also apply to obtaining plastic from a waste stream to put it into JBI units.

The single biggest issue that creates the most troubling problem here is that JBI units can not handle mixed plastic or plastic with contaminates. (see CONTAMINATE ISSUES- section below) Putting plastic with contaminates into the machine will cause fouling, bad gasses, bad emissions, and variations and contaminates in the fuel output as well as complex changes on a molecular level of the fuel that can render it out of spec.

In order to run the JBI machines it is necessary to sort the plastic and obtain a good, contaminate free stream of specific types of plastic. If you can achieve that you now have plastic that has value on the recycling market (more value than the fuel that you can make).

If you have a sorted, contaminate free supply of post industrial plastic, it is already worth more on the recycle market than it is worth trying to turn it into fuel. (and spending $55,000,000 and 4 years with no results)


This is why only 8% of the country's plastic is recycled.... it is cheaper to dispose of it in a landfill than to spend the time and money required to make it 'most optimal' and have something worth an average of $750 (more than fuel at $660) because the cost exceeds this value.

If JBI can find a reliable source of non-recyclable plastic they will be in competition with recyclers for this supply and the recyclers have a subsidize unfair advantage.



Why the entire premise of JBI’s plastic to fuel is FALSE-

The first problem is in the design and permit restrictions…
The JBI machines can ONLY use #2 #4 #5 and #7 plastic (and only a very limited amount of #7).

This means the plastic MUST be SORTED unlike other companies that can handle ALL plastics.

When it comes to SORTED plastic, you get what you pay for.

If you want contaminated mixed plastic that will foul up your machines and break the set emission standards, sure you can get truckloads at (only) $600 a ton.


If you want good, sorted plastic you will pay at least $750 a ton.

If you HAVE good sorted plastic you can SELL it for $750 a ton
(more than the value of the fuel you could make from it!)


If it (only) takes 8 lbs to make a gallon

and (on the best days) you get 6 US brls/ton


IT WILL COST $125/brl JUST IN PLASTIC!

OR, another way to look at it- If you just sort and sell the good plastic that is needed
to run the machines, you could MAKE MORE MONEY!

now add your $10 overhead cost (yeah, right, more like $55mill)

and you are selling $110/brl fuel for a $25 loss per barrel!!!


This math is not double dipping, or accounting for ANY of the long list of other issues previously pointed out AND it is the BEST CASE SCENARIO
(meaning min price for good sorted plastic, max yield for the process, round UP to make it juicier, minimum overhead cost, and at a sell price of $110/brl which is NOT what a WHOLESALE buyer would pay btw).

And if I was RockTenn why on earth would I put plastic in a machine (that holds no IP advantage for my business model and could make me the target of an infringement lawsuit) to turn it into anything.... and lose time and money.... when I could sell the plastic on the open market FOR MORE MONEY and do nothing to it? Why does RockTenn landfill plastic now you ask… simple- IT COST MORE TO SEPARATE IT THAN ITS WORTH!


Just another additional added point to all of the other problems....

Landfill plastic cost time and money to extract it,
once its extracted it has MORE VALUE AS RECYCLED PLASTIC than it has turning it into fuel.

http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing


When you are permitted to ONLY use non-recyclable plastic and you can ONLY put half of the non-recyclable plastic in the machine or you create toxins and deadly corrosive gasses that will rust and foul up your machine and break emission regulations... then you have MORE PROBLEMS.

Once you spend the time and money to extract HALF of the non-recyclable plastic that you can use, what do you do with the other half? Pay to put it in a landfill (ANOTHER UNMENTIONED ADDED COST) and if you actually started doing this on a regular basis or somehow managed to run at maximum capacity, in a years time you will have dumped well over 100,000 tons of UNUSABLE plastic into a landfill! (that would put you on the map as one of the biggest plastic contributors to negative environmental impact in the state of NY if not the country,… talk about bad PR for a company attempting to gain an earth friendly image)

I have not seen or heard of ANY plastic processing equipment or methods mentioned for JBI... if they were doing this it would be a good idea to let them know that they could qualify for recycling status if they sold the plastic that they separated... and between the break even cost of doing this and the recycling subsides they could get, they might just make a buck or two... oh, that's right, that would get used to pay for the dumping license they would need to get rid of that much BAD plastic that they can't use!


In the end it will become obvious why making fuel for only $10 a brl on a commercial level is a misguided fallacy... (as revealed in the 10K)

And why waste management companies don’t find it commercially viable to sort and sell recycled plastic headed to a landfill…

and after 4 years and $55mill it should have become even more obvious that...

MAKING FUEL FOR ONLY $10/brl IT IS A MISCONCEPTION.


(Why perpetual motion machines don’t work-

energy in = energy out with loss… ($55,000,000 loss and growing)

THERE IS NO WAY TO GET MORE OUT THAN YOU PUT IN!)


THE PLASTIC HAS A VALUE GREATER THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL YOU CAN PRODUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
and government recycling subsidies make sure that this holds true


CONTAMINATE ISSUES-

Put anything except clean sorted plastic in the machine and see if your stack test passes emissions.

Better yet, see if there are any survivors in the plant.

Accidentally mixing the smallest amount of the wrong type of plastic, or contaminates such as residual bleach, fertilizer and farm related chemicals, salt, inks, paints, adhesives, acrylic or teflon based additives, pigments or dyes, industrial solvents or basic household cleaners will produce really nasty outputs such as-

Hydrogen cyanide (with the alternate archaic name of prussic acid) is an inorganic compound with chemical formula HCN. It is a colorless, extremely poisonous liquid that boils slightly above room temperature at 26 °C (79 °F). Hydrogen cyanide is a linear molecule, with a triple bond between carbon and nitrogen. A minor tautomer of HCN is HNC, hydrogen isocyanide.

Hydrogen cyanide is weakly acidic with a pKa of 9.2. It partially ionizes in water solution to give the cyanide anion, CN–. A solution of hydrogen cyanide in water is called hydrocyanic acid. The salts of hydrogen cyanide are known as cyanides.

HCN has a faint, bitter, almond-like odor that some people are unable to detect owing to a genetic trait. The volatile compound has been used as inhalation rodenticide and human poison. Cyanide ions interfere with iron-containing respiratory enzymes.

or

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S)
All hydrocarbons can produce hydrogen sulfide gas as a by product of pyrolysis. Hydrogen sulfide (British English: hydrogen sulphide) is the chemical compound with the formula H2S. It is a colorless, very poisonous, flammable gas with the characteristic foul odor of rotten eggs.

or

Hydrogen Chloride gas (HCL)
The compound hydrogen chloride has the chemical formula HCl. At room temperature, it is a colorless gas, which forms white fumes of hydrochloric acid upon contact with atmospheric humidity. Hydrochloric acid, the aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride, is also commonly given the formula HCl. Because of its acidic nature, hydrogen chloride is corrosive, particularly in the presence of moisture. It will rust the inside of the reactor very quickly and anything metal in the area of exposure.

or

Dioxins (Polychlorinated dibenzodioxins) and other Dioxin-like compounds
Chlorinated hydrocarbons produce HCl upon combustion almost quantitatively related to their chlorine content. Extensive studies in Europe indicate that the chlorine found in emitted dioxins is not derived from HCl in the flue gases. Instead, most dioxins arise in the condensed solid phase by the reaction of inorganic chlorides with graphitic structures in char-containing ash particles. Copper acts as a catalyst for these reactions. Studies of household waste burning indicate consistent increases in dioxin generation with increasing PVC and other chlorinated hydrocarbon concentrations.

or

Hydrogen fluoride gas (HF) is a chemical compound with the formula HF. This colorless gas is the principal industrial source of fluorine, often in the aqueous form as hydrofluoric acid. HF is widely used in the petrochemical industry and is a component of many superacids. Hydrogen fluoride boils just below room temperature whereas the other hydrogen halides condense at much lower temperatures. Unlike the other hydrogen halides, HF is lighter than air and diffuses relatively quickly through porous substances. Hydrogen fluoride is a highly dangerous gas, forming corrosive and penetrating hydrofluoric acid upon contact with tissue. The gas can also cause blindness by rapid destruction of the corneas.

or

Toxic by-products of pyrolysis of PTFE (teflon)
The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases and a sublimate. One of these gasses is Hydrogen fluoride gas (HF).

Upon contact with moisture, including tissue, hydrogen fluoride immediately converts to hydrofluoric acid, which is highly corrosive and toxic, and requires immediate medical attention upon exposure.

And many many more...


JBI has a very specific permit and EPA regulation that prohibit contamination going into the reactors for a reason. To prevent the creation of deadly off gasses which can be produced by the introduction of the simplest of contaminates into the reactor. How they get away with not having a scrubber at least for the sake of safety is unimaginable.

I wonder what kind of press coverage JBI will get once they try putting contaminated plastic in their reactor and poison NF. How about the thought of cancer causing dioxins emanating from the plant?

Go ahead, try running unsorted unwashed plastic with no scrubbers and see how long the units run before the place is shut down and quarantined off. maybe that's what all the delays have been about??? I see that they are required to shut down the processor and have DEC come out if they have so much as a slight PH change in output... major delays and built in stoppages to prevent even the slightest of contaminates from being processed. This should be a question for the CC- How many of these shutdowns have occurred due to DEC reg infractions.

Try to SPECIFICALLY sort, and decontaminate landfill bound plastic that has no value and see how much cost is added... By time you have USEABLE plastic it will have cost MORE to convert it from non-recyclable than it will produce in fuel value, which means NO PROFIT.


I hope this helps clarify "the confusion in this thread".








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