Replies to post #398628 on Tornado Alley (PROG)

[blackhawks]

On the other hand Russia DID fuck with the '16 U.S. election on behalf of Trump.

Russia is also a cyber aggressor against the U.S.

Most importantly, Russia is a nuclear power whose leader has been open about his 'disappointment' with the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Eastern Europe's memory of Soviet domination also probably doesn't yet have a sell by date.

I find it hard to believe that Putin's own generals haven't given him a Yamamoto like caution against invasion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote

The other common quotation attributed to Yamamoto predicting the future outcome of a naval war against the United States is, "I can run wild for six months ... after that, I have no expectation of success".[7] As it happened, the Battle of Midway, the critical naval battle considered to be the turning point of the war in the Pacific, did indeed occur six months after Pearl Harbor, as the Battle of Midway ended on June 7, exactly 6 months later.

I read talk of a Ukrainian guerilla war response and more heavy armament furnished by the U.S. and NATO in place or on the way. What would have the equivalent effect on the Russians as the Stinger missiles had on them in Afghanistan?

What IF Ukraine bloodies Russian noses sufficiently to send 2-3K coffins back to Russia?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-clears-baltic-states-to-send-us-made-weapons-to-ukraine/

[B402]

Its what we should do....

NATO was created to keep Europe safe from expansionist countries.....Ukraine split from Russia and wants to remain free,,,,This is exactly what NATO is supposed to do,,,,It should be simple....

But, like you point out the US used its power as an empire with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and others, plus south America...

The question is does the US want to get back to using its power in a moral way or as an empire....Or I Guess not at all too, unless the US itself is threatened....

Do we want to regain our moral high ground we had after WWII and fight for the little guys right to be free or do we withdraw...

Taiwan is next....

[Zorax]

Kind of sounds when put that way like a couple of parents with beers in their hands saying don't do what I do, do what I say.

[newmedman]

That's definitely a hard sphere to navigate. We as citizens have always been brought up to see Russia as an adversary. In my time I watched the Berlin wall go down and watching another standard bearer getting shoes tossed at him while a freakin dictator told us "we will bury you".

But I've also witnessed untold casualties of the endless wars that we wage, with people my age (soon to be 52) dying too young or so messed up that they are not able to cope with life when they come back home.

I witnessed the whole day on 9/11 because I got sent home early from a courthouse I was in, and I too felt the outrage that was later curbed by subsequent facts and details. Nobody ever talks about the Saudi based force that snuck in under our radar so we just blew up Iran and Iraq instead. Also hoping that I don't sound anti Jewish, because I'm not, but the terrorist state of Israel can go fuck itself too and we've been supporting their genocides in the name of religion since I was born.

I never served, but I know plenty like my father who did and was a silver star recipient twice purple hearted without any fanfare and I saw how bitter it made him, which spills over to me at times.

I knew other guys my age that were in Desert Storm and the invasion of the middle east and they are not the same either.

I don't think we should be the world's police but I think we should police the world, if that makes any sense. Fighting useless foreign wars and attacking invisible enemies should go the way of the dodo, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep our eyes peeled.

The shit with Ukraine has already gone way too far and there's a host of other nations who would be able to curb it if they wanted to. They don't, and they look to us to be their scapegoat while asshole politicians here change their course as likely as they change their underwear, supporting clandestine missions for their black-op buddies who roll in our tax money.

It's unsolvable, just like Afghanistan. One day everyone cheered that we were finally getting out, but now that we've left, there's nothing but criticism about the way we did it. Fuck them. Anyone who wanted to go had months or even years to plan their exit and now they are paying the price for their own nationalism and it somehow becomes our burden? Give me a break.

What's happening in Ukraine is not our fault and it's not our job to keep helping these idiots that let corrupt politicians infiltrate their ranks. We have enough problems right here on our own soil with assholes toting around assault rifles to go to walmart thinking they are fighting more invisible enemies.

It doesn't matter. We were brought up in a culture of war, it's ingrained in our society and it won't change anytime soon. It runs through capitalism and sports always besting the other person. It's how we are.

Putin is a pussy and is trying to gain control over a society that he can't handle. I won't say the same for Xi because the culture runs deep over there, but really, who's going to attack us on our own soil and not have the earth wind and fire brought down upon them?

I'll tell you who.....it's your neighbors who are just a little misguided enough to believe all the nonsense that a dude on facebook tells them.

[fuagf]

B402 came closest to my initial thought .. https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=167589164 .

There was .. 5. James Madison (1809-17)

The principal author of the Constitution will forever be known as one of our worst chief executives. As president, Madison launched an ill-conceived preemptive war against superior British forces in Canada, which almost destroyed the nation. The War of 1812 is discussed little in the United States, but it gets more attention in Canadian history books. Given the U.S. preference for the inevitability of Manifest Destiny and the exceptionalism of the Monroe Doctrine, it is little wonder why.

A late F6 (Mark) post, Feb, 2009 - https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=35679479

Empire building. Then there was Empire.

Now, Americans are generally tired of Americans being killed fighting wars in other countries so some withdrawal from that kick. Now there is ongoing conflict between the idea of helping others in danger of expansionism by Russia. And China.

There has always been 'do as we way not as we do.' Not so much now but it will always exist. There has always been interference in other countries on behalf of American business. Not so much now but that will always exist to. Now there are more creative technological ways of interference. Protecting American business is seen as in America's interest as, at least in an indirect way, it is.

Russia believes they have a right to invade Ukraine. At least Putin and many Russians do:

What’s Driving Putin’s Ukraine Brinkmanship?
[...]
In speeches, interviews and lengthy articles, President Vladimir V. Putin .. https://www.nytimes.com/topic/person/vladimir-putin .. and his close associates have telegraphed a singular fixation this year on the former Soviet republic. The Kremlin thesis goes that Ukrainians are “one people” with Russians, living in a failing state controlled by Western forces determined to divide and conquer the post-Soviet world.
P - Ukrainians, who ousted a Russia-friendly president in 2014 and are increasingly in favor of binding their country to Western institutions, would largely beg to differ. But Mr. Putin’s conviction finds a receptive ear among many Russians, who see themselves as linked intimately with Ukraine by generations of linguistic, cultural, economic, political and family ties. Now, with a force of 175,000 Russian troops poised to be in position near Ukraine by early next year .. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/04/us/politics/russia-ukraine-biden.html , in what Western officials fear could be a prelude to an invasion, centuries of shared history loom large
p - Mr. Putin’s gambit may be a cold calculus of coercion, backed by signals that the threat of war is real — a way to force President Biden to recognize a Russian sphere of interest in Eastern Europe. Mr. Putin in recent days said Russia would demand “legal guarantees” that Ukraine would not join the NATO alliance or host more Western forces, and he is scheduled to speak to Mr. Biden by videoconference on Tuesday.
P - But to Mr. Putin — and many other Russians — the nearly eight-year-old conflict with Ukraine is not simply about geopolitics; it is about a hurt national psyche, a historical injustice to be set right. One of his former advisers, Gleb O. Pavlovsky, in an interview described the Kremlin’s view of Ukraine as a “trauma wrapped in a trauma” — the dissolution of the Soviet Union coupled with the separation of a nation Russians long viewed as simply an extension of their own.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=167339348

Putin has a legitimate fear of Ukraine joining NATO. Even if not, fear of more NATO presence on it's immediate border.

The U.S., still as arguably the strongest country in the world, rightly feels a moral and ethical duty to protect smaller nations under threat.