Replies to post #7895 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[CoalTrain]

My observations of small children together also tells me that children can be very cruel to each other, are very prone to lying, and will pretty much do whatever they are allowed to get away with by their parents. No, children are not without guilt and sin - they are born with it, and it is good behavior that has to be learned, not sin.
============================================================
Interesting description of children. Having lived in many cultures and places on the globe I find your description of children to be correct in children who watch lots of television. In cultures where children watch little or no television I find children to be quite innocent and learn bad things from the adults.

CT

[Zeev Hed]

I'll respond later today, but it is a weighty subject, so it will have to wait

Zeev

[mainehiker]

re Children are born selfish and thinking of nothing but themselves, and have to be taught otherwise. My observations of small children together also tells me that children can be very cruel to each other, are very prone to lying, and will pretty much do whatever they are allowed to get away with by their parents. No, children are not without guilt and sin - they are born with it, and it is good behavior that has to be learned, not sin.

Its my view that much of the sin you see in children is learned from adults. I remember back to grade school, the bully types picked on the smarter types, the smarter types did not start the bullying. ie like saddam the bully type, hes full of sin (im saying that hypothetically as im agnostic)

[Zeev Hed]

mlsoft, you note requires splitting the response into few posts. I'll start with the one which I see as obvious, the issue of Job. I presume you know that the final assemblers of the old testament had a great problem with the inclusion of the book as part of the old testament. The reason was that without the last chapter, the book could have been interpreted as heresy and only the reconciliation (and some researchers claim the last chapter was written at a later date to allow the book to be included) made the whole book "acceptable". That book raises the deepest theological questions about the almighty, his powers, the limits of his power etc. It is the only book where "Satan" is a major "player" (well a possibly later book Zecharia also have some "dealings with Satan), the word appears in the Torah only in the story of Bilham, but not as what we know as "satan" but as a barrier to overcome. The concept of Satan (derived from the Hebrew word "Sitna" meaning pure unadulterated hate) is quite late in Judaism, as is Job. In essence, it is a "Din Torah" of a kind, in which the response to doubts that Job experiences, is given as his ignorance of the creation (was Job the first evolutionist and the almighty was giving him the first lesson in "creationism"?). The analogy of choosing Job for Satan's machinations and Israel for the almighty trials and tribulations is, however quite correct, except, of course that Israel, unlike Job, is not sin less. Of course, the presence of Job in the old testament, the one declared to be absolutely righteous (without sin) by the almighty himself, throw a monkey wrench in the dogma that we are all born sinners..., Job wa not and Noach was not.

As for kids, some are innocent some are not, I know I had to teach my youngest that some times he must "defend his turf" or he'll be stepped all over (he took the "thou shall love your friend as you love yourself" literally early in his childhood. I think that most of all children are curious, not bad or good, and in the growing process they discover the limits of their domain, the differentiation between "good" and "bad" is a slow lengthy process, but as I taught them, if you don't know if what you do is good or bad, imagine and put yourself on the receiving side of your own actions, and then decide if what you are about to do is "good or "bad". It worked most of the times (to be truthful, only three out of four <g>).

As for Numbers 14:18, gosh who translated that? Here is my translation: The Lord is patient and righteous, and bearers of sins and crimes he will not forgive (the hebrew here is "Nakeh lo yenakeh", meaning clean he shall shall not clean or in my translation unforgiving), he counts (really recounts) the sins of fathers on their sons and on their third and fourth (generation, sons being second generation). If you are going to read the bible literally, you'd better start learning Hebrew since existing translations are short of the original (the Douay translation is quite far from the one you cited as well).

Zeev

[gotmilk]

"Animals are born..." versus "Children are born..."

Message In Reply To:
As for children being sinless...
Children are born selfish and thinking of nothing but themselves,
and have to be taught otherwise..." [stop]

Dear mlsoft,

Would it be apples & oranges to compare the function
of the activity of a new born brain in a human child
to that of a highly developed social animal, like a wolf
or elephant or orca(killer whale)?

But even before you answer, might you reflect on certain animals
that are not social, and have brain functions fall less, than say a dog?

But then, maybe you need not even need such a comparison
if you examine a new born brain in a baby that has enough of
what we can describe as pre-programming to survive where
this baby has not the ability to reason, but only to obtain.

Now place this baby in an environment where shelter, water, food,
and even "the touch of another" is given under the following conditions:
- easy
- hard
- brutal
- painful
- rewarding

Now we can explode and tear apart and crush each of the above
to reflect an opinion based on pre-set conditioning, but i would note
that such done is bringing to the table of understanding errors made
in ones own past, that exist today as the normal set in conflicts.

For one might say that if it is made too easy for the child, that if
the child is over-protected, then they will not survival in a world
that is hard and unforgiven. My reply is that you bring too much
of that baggage of the current world into your training of the child,
and would better serve the outcome of the child if you did not focus
on the good v. evil struggles we all have, but to have the child learn
a correct and proper manner to interact, and then advance the child
to examples of good & bad where the prior training has prepared
the child to serve & protect him or herself, if needed. Guess i'am
trying to say that rather than upfront warn a child that bad people
are out there to cause harm, better to teach a child that the normal
and natural way to reflect upon living is to engage people such that
an equal and rewarding exchange is correctness and proper,
and once this attitude is learned, then and only then introduct
to the child that sometimes people will act and respond different,
and that this has to be deal with as un-normal, not as something
to be learned to master and do better for revenge or anger or to
develope these nasty skill better than that nasty person so that
in the end you get the better position, aka less harmed.

Message In Reply To:
"My observations of small children together also tells me
that children can be very cruel to each other,
are very prone to lying..." [stop]

Yes, very true when children are placed in a group and one
or more of these children acts in a bully, unrespectful manner
to the other children, then survival instincts in non agressive
children click on for their own protection and they will appear
to one viewing at a distance as just as bad and nasty as the
one whom was this way while all rest were kind and nice.