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Re: Zeev Hed post# 7805

Monday, 03/03/2003 10:04:19 AM

Monday, March 03, 2003 10:04:19 AM

Post# of 495952
Zeev....

Interesting post and point of view. It sounds like you are in a personal war against God or better against some of the actions God has taken, at least in your eyes. From what I have read in your posts of your background, I can understand some of where you are coming from.

Yes, God chose Israel (not the other way around) to be a light unto the goyim and He knew when He chose them that they were a "stiff necked" people that would fail miserably at that task. He also knew that even their failures would serve to declare both His righteousness and His mercy to the nations and that was indeed the case. Is God vengeful?? Yes, from a human point of view - a being so Holy and Just could hardly do anything else with a rebellious and disobedient people, but that vengeance was always tempered with complete mercy for those who would repent and turn to Him in faith.

"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." -- Numbers 14:18

Keeping the quote in context, the passage also speaks of God's mercy and patience, so there is a tension there. Remember that the Law was very specific that no child should be punished because of the sins of its father, so what is the solution? I believe that the quote you use merely relates the natural results of sin, which not only affects the sinner but also his family and those consequences can continue through generations. Another facet is that children are often predisposed (either genetically or through learning) to have the same sins as their fathers, such a violence, gambling, laziness, etc.. That is not God's fault, it is a result of the nature of men.

As for the holocaust, I do not believe that the ovens and death camps that resulted in the death of 6 million Jews had anything to do with retribution by God for their sins, either children or adults. The same is true for the Pogroms and the rest of the amazing history of the Jews, who survived not because they "refused to die" but because they were and are under the protective hand of God to show that they cannot be wiped out - the only retribution from God was against those who harmed His people. Only God could provide a people such devine protection at the same time He has sent them once again into diaspora for their disobedience and rebellion - but at the same time He has promised to regather them in the Day of the Lord, and to give them new hearts that love and obey Him, and to give them the land and all the other blessings He promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and Solomon. I firmly believe that those promises were totally unconditional, as shown by the fact that God placed Abraham in a deep sleep and performed the ceremonial Covenant by Himself.

Again, I do not believe the Holocaust was a result of the sins of His people, although they certainly had many as we all do. I do not claim to know the mind of God, but look at all that has resulted from that abomination - without it, there would not be a state of Israel today, and at least for a while the deeds of Hitler and his ilk were burned upon the conscience of mankind. God did not cause the ovens and gas chambers to be filled with Jews, it was an act of man and of Satan. But God did what only God can do, as He brought good out of pure evil.

I believe The whole point of the book of Job is that when bad things happen, no matter how terrible they are, it is not necessarily because of that person's sin. Job was declared to be totally righteous by God Himself, who said that in Job there was found no sin. In fact, Satan recognized that Job was guiltless and that was why he wanted to afflict him with so much suffering in order that Job would turn against God. God was willing to let Satan do so to prove that Job was not righteous just because of God's blessings (as Satan claimed) but that he would remain faithful despite all that Satan could throw at him. God's ways and motives are far above our own, and none of us can understand the mind of God. We can only believe that He is all He claims to be, and trust in His mercy.

As for children being sinless, your kids must have been different from mine <gg>. Children are born selfish and thinking of nothing but themselves, and have to be taught otherwise. My observations of small children together also tells me that children can be very cruel to each other, are very prone to lying, and will pretty much do whatever they are allowed to get away with by their parents. No, children are not without guilt and sin - they are born with it, and it is good behavior that has to be learned, not sin.

The above are just my opinions, but based on study of Scripture and deeply held. I hope that at some point you can make peace with God. I know He is more than willing if you are.

Sholom.

mlsoft



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