Replies to post #3405 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[goodluck]

Zeev,
Reform and, I believe, Conservative Judaism allow abortion now in certain circumstances, though I can't say what the circumstances are. This is only a few years old.

Also for another take on Judaism (mine) and how it differs from the brand of Christianity that Mlsoft and mike m are talking about, see http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=695361 , third paragraph.

Sam

[mlsoft]

"How can one commit one the most heinous crimes (to Christianity and Judaism alike, suicide) and have a deathbed conversion, that is a ludicrous presumption."
--------------------------------------------------------------

Zeev...

Perhaps you misunderstood my comment - I never referred to suicide. Some Christian teachers that I respect doubt that a truly saved Christian could ever commit suicide, but I personally do not have an opinion on the matter.

I did say that even a murderer could have a deathbed conversion and be saved, and I do believe that. From a Christian standpoint, either the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross was sufficient for all sin or it was not. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that it was, for all those that accept it.

As for Hitler, like I said, I believe based on other scripture that the chances of his having a deathbed conversion are zero.

Speaking of Jeremiah, God declared that "when you were in the womb, I knew you and before you came out of the womb I sanctified you." Just one of a number of Scriptural arguments that equate abortion with murder, a number of which are in the New Testament. I am not as convinced as many Christians as to the arguments equating abortion with murder, and I think that it is possible that since God knows which fetuses are to be aborted, He never places a soul in them. That is a minority position, to be sure, but I do not think that it is wise to speak for God unless it is soundly based on what God has Himself said, so the matter is an open question theologically for me, although I am opposed to abortion because the arguments equating it with murder may be correct. The same reasoning is true concerning stem cell research, with which I have no problem as long as the fetus is neither created nor aborted for the purpose of harvesting stem cells - using a fetus that died naturally for stem cell research causes me no problem in and of itself. Cloning is a different story.

As for Falwell, I do not follow him closely and base my thoughts on the Bible, not Falwell.

I agree with Judaic teaching on degrees of sin - very scriptural, in my opinion. I still think a distinction must be made between "killing" and "murder".

mlsoft

[jdaasoc]

RE Abortion and Judaism. Let's take the controversial situation where a man rapes a Jewish woman that results in a pregnancy. It would be my understanding that Jewish law would frown on abortion in this case and it would be the duty of woman/husband to raise the child as her own or is their some wiggle room for abortion or adoption.
I know that Catholicism would not condon abortion in this situation but raising the child as one's own is something I would like clarification on.