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Dances-W-waves

02/11/05 9:08 AM

#357512 RE: zztops #357504

but you need to look more on the positive side

Some people can never do that.....


Pisses me off. <g>
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westpacific

02/11/05 10:42 AM

#357646 RE: zztops #357504

OT Many of those things happened before 1971 IDIOT.

America was a great country and its people are still the best in the world. Who cannot love America. It is the leadership that is letting it down - via FIAT.

Prior to 1971 America ROCKED, its people worked hard, a buck was worth something, your child could play in the street with no fear.

----And you my friend need to get out and see the rest of the world. You are so centric in your thinking. It is a big world and not everyone lives in America. Scary.

And I do not get into politics, just look at were a buck goes today and you should have fear. What will a house cost my 3 year old in 20 years. Millions...........







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cannabis

02/11/05 10:46 AM

#357650 RE: zztops #357504

"Would we have an internet if not for America"...no,not without Al Gore.<g>
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jathor

02/11/05 9:06 PM

#358002 RE: zztops #357504

west doesn't get..he never has..
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Iblayz

02/11/05 10:48 PM

#358007 RE: zztops #357504

Heck of a post dude....
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Burk

02/11/05 11:16 PM

#358008 RE: zztops #357504

Great post!! My sentiments exactly.
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girlfriend

02/11/05 11:30 PM

#358009 RE: zztops #357504

All I can say is WOW.....what a great post.
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brightness

02/12/05 12:04 AM

#358010 RE: zztops #357504

I agree with the sentiment of both of you and WestPac. I think you guys are talking past each other. The 12 points that you have listed (and many more can be added) are great accomplishments. Yet, none of them was contingent upon fiat money. WestPac's criticism was against fiat money, not America, per se. Fiat money is quite unAmerican; in fact, the Constitution quite clearly left out the fourth institution called central bank, the likes of which were being established in Europe prior to the Revolutionary War. Founding Fathers, like Jefferson and Madison, were quite vehement in their objection to central banking.

Rome brought great liberty, freedom and prosperity to people of the known world (all around the Mediteranean). Yet, it was the devaluation of its currency (a very barbaric form of taxation) that eventually brought the Republic-Empire to its knees. Free Roman citizens sold themselves to be part of large estates in order to avoid being taxed and/or using/posessing the rapidly devaluing currency. Roman currency, the silver Dinar had its silver content cut from nearly 99% to less than 2% over 200 years after the early Julian-Claudian Emperpors; that's when all hell started to break loose. The US dollar had practically no devaluation in the first 140 years of the Republic. The last 70 years since circa 1933 however have witnessed a 95% devaluation in gold terms ($21/oz to $420/oz). Read Greenspan's own essay on gold and economic freedom.
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langostino

02/12/05 12:25 AM

#358012 RE: zztops #357504

All good points zztops

Balance is good. Deliberately ignoring the portion of facts that don't comport with the axe one wants to grind is somewhere between unfortunate and intellectually dishonest.

One thing, though ... while it's true the U.S. once was the most generous nation on earth, we aren't at the top of the list, per capita any longer. IMO, something happened in the 80s and we've been sliding rapidly downhill since. A certain undefinable yet palpable self-indulgence and wastefulness.

The 80s began the journey to a crass culture where money-worship became a more central value. Advertising began to deliver the message "buy it for yourself, because you deserve to indulge yourself". In a country where most of the people were raised to think conspicuous consumption might not be a particularly admirable goal, now it's blatantly celebrated. Regrettably, that focus seemed to lead to feelings of general entitlement. It wasn't "what can i do for my neighbor" any longer, it was "how can i get what's mine, what I'm entitled to, so I can have as much as (or more than) my neighbor".

There were some good things that came from the Reagan years, but there were also some very bad things -- chief among them, IMO, this consumerism and selfishness. Once we, as a society, respected the man who put in an honest hard day's work with his hands. Now kids see a political and corporate culture that flaunts openly lying and cheating, and seems to smirk at hard work. As a result, cheating in school is rampant. Is it any wonder after growing up like that when they graduate to the workforce it continues?

The conservatives are right, we've got a moral decay that's eating America from the inside. But it doesn't have a damn thing to do with their singular obsession with sex or sexuality, or Jerry Falwell's narrow-minded politics. It's got to do with the pursuit of material consumption, the celebration of "winning" over honor - by any means necessary. And all of the rationalizations that come with it.

You are right, historically, America has done immeasurably great things for the world. It's just that those sorts of things we once did, we don't do nearly so much any more. You know, it's not some random coincidence that the U.S. is so poorly regarded around the world -- worse than at any time in our country's history. Ask anyone who travels or works internationally and they'll tell you how incredible and rapid the change has been. Decades of goodwill, burnt up in a few short years.

Instead of doing the self-indulgent thing and assuming this change is the result of the other guy having somehow failed, we should be looking inward. Our greatest enemy is the one within. And the biggest threat to our greatness doesn't come from outside our border.
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choad

02/12/05 1:23 AM

#358014 RE: zztops #357504

zz, Don't worry about being called an idiot, you're in good company! LOL
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lee kramer

02/12/05 3:02 AM

#358022 RE: zztops #357504

Hi ZZ: What gets my goat, [and I don't have a goat though I may get one] is that we often spend a ton of money overseas, and I understand and aqree with this...but tend to ignore children, older folks, and the terribly high cost of medical care at home, especialy for those who don't have a lot of money.
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marketmaven

02/12/05 8:26 AM

#358036 RE: zztops #357504

Kudos, ZZ outstanding post. I think Westy is concerned, as am I, that the lack of financial responsibility by our government (non-partisan) and ethics by corporate America are signalling a deep cancer exists in the system. People want something for nothing, UNLIKE the total American sacrifice for WW1 and WW2 and the Korean War, to a lesser extent. Instead, the sheeple are getting bamboozled and robbed by the GOOGs and Mary Meekers who sell snake oil
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Zeev Hed

02/12/05 9:28 AM

#358041 RE: zztops #357504

If we stayed on the gold standard, the economic cycle would drastically amplified and we would go from massive inflation followed by depressions every decade. I have presented a detailed analysis of the "sodom bed" of the gold standard few times (#msg-507644, msg#-555089, #msg-1150995, #msg-1150808, #msg-1471212).

A lot of people think that Greenspan is still a gold bug, well you may want to read "Maestro" by Bob Woodward to get an inkling on his conversion. I think that today, Greenspan would consider being called a "GOLD bug" or a supporter of backing currencies with GOLD as an asteisticon. Of course, this assertion may be nothing more than indulgence in obnubilation on my part. Many still maintain that Greenspan never left the "Austrian discipline" camp, I think these people are witnessing nothing but kinephantoms, though.
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urmygold1

02/13/05 9:28 AM

#358175 RE: zztops #357504

NON STOCK POST OF THE YEAR ;o) BUT IT IS TIME TO STOP THE GRAVY TRAIN FOR SOME....MAINLY FRANCE,GERMANY AND THE REST WHO OPPOSE US AT ALL POINTS IN THE UNITED NATIONS...MAYBE ITS TIME TO END THE UNTED STATES INVOLVEMENT IN THE UNITED NATIONS....PULL OUR TROOPS OUT OF EUROPE AND CUT ALL FORIEN AID! TELL ALL NATIONS AS TRUMAN SHOULD HAVE ITS TIME TO MOVE TOWARDS DEMOCRACY "IF" YOU WANT U.S. HELP! CHINA IS THE WORST! HUMAN RIGHTS DO NOT EXIST IN CHINA! AND WE TRADE WITH THEM LIKE THIS IS NOTHING! MEANWHILE OUR DEFICIT GROWS WITH ABANDON MAINLY BECAUSE OF CHINA. A STUDY WAS DONE RECENTLY THAT SAID IF THE U.S. ENDED FOREIN AID THE BUDGET DEFICIT WOULD BE BALANCED WITHIN 2 YEARS...SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN TO ME! ;o) AMERICANS STILL WOULD GIVE PRIVATELY TO THE POOR AND STARVING AND VICTIMIZED POEPLES ALL OVER THE WORLD! URMY! ;o)