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We all did at some point. Give it time :)
It's sad but it's really looking that way. Like they have nothing. If they had something real and either there was still a chance of it working out or even if they realized it won't work there is no reason I can think of to keep investors in the dark. If you tried your best, worked on an actual product and then something happened that brought the whole thing to a stop tell us what it is and we will decide what to do from there and who is responsible. This whole waiting and shutting us out is ridiculous and only really points to one thing. And the pps reflects that.
How can a company be surrounded by so much negativity, basically every single investor complaining through every single channel available and do absolutely nothing about it, give no information, no explanations and instead ridicule and attack their own investors? It is crazy. They look at ihub, at FB, yahoo, emails, phone etc, hundreds and hundreds of complaints and they decide that it is the investors that are crazy and in the wrong. If one guy or even ten guys complain about your conduct while everyone else is content, which used to be the case a couple of years ago, then ok, they may be crazy or bashers or whatever and just ignore them. But right now the vast majority agrees the company is a joke and yet they are still on their high horse and admit no wrong, pretty much psychopath behavior. WDRP, when almost EVERYONE tells you that you messed up you do not have the option of calling them crazy or negative anymore. You just don't, not without looking completely crazy. You have to do your best to make it better. But, why do I even bother, not like anything will change...
Honestly I am not an expert in this type of hands-on test. It is technically possible that there is a piece of equipment or several pieces that they need and that they are trying to get to Intertek. It is possible they are doing their best and this is genuinely how long it takes to locate, buy and ship the equipment they need. It is also possible that by now they rescheduled and maybe even carried out the tests and did not want to announce the date for fear of missing it again. But I doubt it. The bottom line is if there wasn't a chance what they said was 100% true I would have pretty much sold everything by now.
That said, when you look at the facts their excuse is very flimsy. We all know how long it takes to ship something from A to B and it is not months. We all know how large of a company Intertek is, how much equipment they have, how many equipment manufacturers and retailers they musk know and how long it would take them to locate something. We also know that when you plan to test something you make a list of the specific equipment you need beforehand instead of finding out you don't have it the moment you start testing. And finally we all know the company's history of delays and generally failing to deliver...
Personally, for me to be satisfied with their excuse for the delay I'd need answers to at least the following questions:
- Why did they not know what equipment was needed before the test, when it was being defined.
- Why, when they realized that they did not have whatever complex equipment, didn't they just carry out at least a fairly basic test of efficiency, a "black box" type thing, just inputs and outputs, since really, at the end of the day that is all that matters.
- What specific equipment they need, why and where will they get it from.
- Why does it take over a month to have that equipment available.
- What are they doing to obtain it and when do they think it will be available.
They may well have good reasonable answers to those questions but if they do they certainly have not provided them.
I have spoken to Andrew on the phone and over email several times in the past, not recently. But he always insists on talking on the phone rather than putting things in writing in an email and he always insists that I do not share our conversations with other investors. That seems fishy to me. I think everyone should be given the same information and anything that is said to one investors should be available to any investor and they should be ok with us copy and pasting any conversation anywhere. But the biggest problem really is that he never really gave me any useful information at all. And this is fine, really it is the way it should be since any meaningful information should be shared publicly. Because of the reasons above calling the company is only good if you want to listen to a soothing voice telling you all will be ok rather than actually getting more information.
And I am not saying we need to be informed of every single little detail through a PR but the fact is this company needs to go above and beyond to prove themselves honest and real at this point. Let's be honest, the facts do not make them look good right now so a PR frequency that may be fine for a blue chip is horribly inadequate for a small start-up with absolutely 0 proven results, with years of delays, with very flimsy excuses, with PRs later proven false, with AMF investigations and so on. And the excuse that some people will not like the PR or will attack it is so childish that it doesn't even need to be mentioned.
Almost 2 months since last PR. These guys really couldn't care less about investors... They don't even bother to come up with some believable excuses and stories...
First of all we have no idea what "the" equipment it. Second there is no reason it should take this long to get, if they post on this board what they need we can have it there within a week at the very most. And third it isn't really true that he answers every call and email. Bottom line is one detailed PR per month updating on progress should be the minimum for a company in their position, with years of delays and a huge number of PRs that were proven to not be true, not to mention the investigation and all the rest. Assuming of course they care about their image, their credibility and their investors.
Yeah, waiting is fine, up to a point, but not having any idea why you have to wait or what you are waiting for is not ok. I can't see any good reason why they have to go dark and refuse to talk to their own investors. If you did not mess up then why not explain the delays. If you did mess up own up to it and tell us what's going on, don't act like scared little kids.
I'll send them an email about the meet and greet but one person can do nothing. We need several emails, here, on FB, phone, whatever so that they can't ignore it. It's sad since we are their investors but it is what it is...
It's looking a whole lot like they hooked the thing up at Intertek and it was immediately obvious the results would suck so they either pulled the plug on testing or did some but pretended they didn't. The whole story where nothing at all is available for tests in over a month just doesn't fly. And if there was a good reason for the delay (equipment shipped, no time slots available etc) and there was a specific date when testing could be resumed they would have said so by now. The fact they are so quiet looks really bad to me. Still haven't sold anything but I'm not waiting that much longer...
I completely agree that this is all about the product and I have been saying that over and over. None of the AMF stuff and all the other pie in the sky scam theories that some keep banging on about matter one way or another as long as there isn't a competitive product out there to sell. If there's no good product I couldn't care less why exactly that is, scam or whatever. But now the question is: IS there a product?
The efficiency of the technology and talking about it only matters once you establish that
1. It is actually physically possible to do it competitively,
2. they are genuinely trying to do it
3. they are reasonably close to doing it
There are a lot of things lately that put those three points under some doubt. Basically what I am saying is if this is actually a scam or if they realized it can't be done (or just that they can't do it) then asking questions about the technology will tell us nothing. Other than giving us almost full specifications (which they won't do) there is not a whole lot that they can tell us that would convince us the product is functional and competitive. Some of the reasons I am starting to doubt there actually IS a product:
- huge list of PRs and other info that were proven either false or did not deliver what they promised
- years of constant delays, one after the other, with vague explanations and excuses
- absolutely no verifiable results of any kind in over 3 years
- very strong refusal to answer even the most reasonable investor questions and being very aggressive and unprofessional
- the meet and greet where they obviously had nothing at all to show and tried to make it so that hardly anyone could attend
- the latest excuse that a company like Intertek could not get the equipment to measure a water heater in 2 months
- refusal to release internal testing results or a video, even after promising them
- the AMF investigation
Because of all those reasons and probably some more that I forgot I am way more interested in checking if they actually are on the up and up and are genuinely working on something real. And yes, I would even go as far as to pull the thing from Intertek if they agree to it just for a chance to see it, or for some of us to see it at least. The bottom line is they look really really bad right now and they could fairly easily be transparent and clear their name by talking to us and explaining everything. We all know what they choose to do instead. I used to think that it was just because they were incompetent novices, maybe no people skills, but more and more I'm not so sure. Hopefully they get their act together and prove me wrong.
I'm all for being simple and I didn't mean backing them into a corner but at the same time they do have a history of skirting questions and the last meet and greet was a completely futile exercise as far as actually improving confidence. They scheduled and rescheduled it so that not many people could be there and had nothing to actually show. It worked great to prove to the people that were actually there that things aren't what they seem... If things happen the same way this time we will learn nothing as far as actual information. Although we will be able to assume a lot...
And as far as getting info about the technology and having an interest in it, I don't think they will want to talk about it and I don't think that's what most investors are most interested in at the moment anyway. Personally I am a lot more concerned with overall progress, with the discrepancies between PRs and reality and with what the plan is going forward then I am with the technology.
Hmm, ok so "the" mcmhu suggests they only have one and it's there so as far as a meet and greet and touch the unit it probably can't happen yet. I suppose if Intertek comes up with a time slot for testing on short notice it could make sense to leave the unit there and maybe they also didn't know how long it would be until it could be tested. Giving them the benefit of the doubt here but a conference call and a video should still happen.
Like I said for the near future I don't have access to FB but anyone feel free to post over there anything I post here, I have nothing to hide. If I had the time I'd post there too and on yahoo and whatever.
If the unit is at Intertek of course nobody would ask for it to be removed just to be shown to investors. However, at this point it would be fairly worrying if they only had one reasonably well functioning prototype. And if that is the case it should only be left there in case tests are about to be performed in the near future, otherwise it's actually more productive for us to see it than to leave it there indefinitely.
Even assuming the unit has to stay there they have claimed they have video of it (they must by this point) and there is still a huge list of questions to be answered in order to restore confidence. So maybe a conference call and video for now with a possible meet and greet later. Hell, even an email or PR that addresses in an honest and direct way a list of questions we have would go a really long way.
As far as the unit still being there, are we assuming that or have they said that? If Robert needs/wants to be there during testing he will have to go there again anyway so it does not make a lot of sense to leave it there. And if they are as concerned as they claim to be about intellectual property it again doesn't make sense to leave the unit there for a month or two. And since this is still a prototype that could benefit from further development it again doesn't make sense to leave it there and not touch it for a long time.
I agree, we should be as nice as possible since the goal here is getting information, not throwing around accusations or tin-foil-hat scam conspiracy theories. But at the same time we should try to close any loopholes they might use to weasel out of the meeting/call or to avoid providing answers. If the communication is 100% positive on our side but at the same time the requests are detailed it puts them in a position where saying no makes it obvious that they have something to hide.
This is IHUB, everyone has to think exactly what I think and I am 100% sure of everything I post, just like everyone else here, you know that. :)
That said, do you really think there is a significant number of investors that believe the whole AMF thing will actually result in anything? Not a rhetorical question. I'm not saying the company isn't a total failure and I'm not saying it's not a scam just that even if those things are true the whole AMF thing has been really lame so far and it's very far from even coming up with any proven accusations against the company, much less convictions.
Lol I have a FB account but I haven't used forever so I forgot the password to it and the email account it's linked to apparently I don't control anymore. I can figure it out somehow or make a new one but in the mean time anyone feel free to ask for the meet or CC on FB.
Come on guys, seriously, enough with the whole AMF thing. You let it die for a few months and now it's back from the closet, all fresh again. And again with this being cease traded in Canada, which just isn't true and has been disproved by investors from there. Yes, maybe 3 people involved with the company can't buy shares while in Canada, not exactly huge news. And the whole investigation was pretty weak and vague in the initial report and has had zero progress or updates in over a year.
Don't get me wrong, if this turns out to actually be a scam there's nothing I want more than to see these guys hang. And even if it isn't a scam being shaken up a little by someone, even the AMF, can only do them good and make them be more transparent and stop dragging their feet. So I'm not saying I don't want an investigation, just saying that we all know that this investigation isn't going to amount to anything, for better or for worse... If there was a serious concern that people are being scammed and if there was serious proof of that, this would not have gone dark a year ago.
And at the end of the day I don't think the scam explanation is the most likely. Even if they are currently lying to investors it is far more likely to be because they realized they can't get the product to work than because it's a scam that's been going on for years and years. The company has made it plenty clear how incompetent they are and on what a limited time and budget they work so it's more than enough to explain the lack of results, we really don't need all these completely unsupported statements that you are sure it's a scam and the AMF is just about to bust them...
Whenever I talked to Andrew, not in many months, I didn't feel any better or worse since he told me nothing relevant. And at least once he became pretty angry at me asking questions even though I was 100% positive.
If there is some information that some investors get over the phone that makes them feel better about things then the company should share this information with all of us so that we don't have to have every single investor call Andrew personally. One good way to do that would be a conference call or meet and greet.
Ok, first of all the answer to that is actual information, cold hard facts so you know better than to ask for something like that. But the answer would be something along the lines of: Some investors feel the need to question everything about the company and to these doorknobs, who have not invented anything in their lives and who are the reason the value is dropping we say sell and move on, while the majority of our investors wait for the release of the revolutionary product which will pay off for all of us, very soon, within the coming weeks. Insert a little more indignation, a few more excuses, boil until any trace of a verifiable fact is gone, stir in some more name-calling, a pinch of vague promises and presto! you got your answer.
Jokes aside, that would be a very good question to add to the list of questions if they ever agree to answer some.
Ok, so lets make sure they don't get to do any of that. The meet and greet is set up for our benefit so it should be set for a time that is reasonable for us. And we should explicitly demand to see the contraption working, at least in a basic but verifiable way if not with super detailed measurements. With the first meet and greet we got burned because we did not know what to expect but this time we can do better. And if the scenario repeats exactly the way it did last time or they weasel out of things in some other way that will pretty much tell us what we need to know, still achieving the purpose of the whole thing. Bottom line is we need to close as many of the loops they are using to not answer questions and show the product...
If they do not even address the idea of meeting, showing us something and answering questions, if they just straight delete it I would say that speaks pretty clearly about what is going on, no need to really say anything else... Refusing to publish detailed results, refusing to publish pictures of the inside of the box etc maybe can be justified if you stretch enough but plainly refusing to have any contact with your investors (other than FB name calling) is the equivalent of running abroad pretty much...
The AMF thing was a really long time ago and the whole "maybe" tone is much more recent, pretty much after new year. Maybe there was a little more restraint after that but there were still plenty of very very confident PRs and definitely no talk whatsoever of the possibility of this not working. But yes, it is possible that's what's going on. Unfortunately, if that's the case I don't see the AMF or SEC doing anything about it, that first report had pretty much nothing in it and there has been no progress or updates for many months.
A meet and greet and questions being answered directly is pretty much the only way for them to prove to us they aren't a scam.
To help clear all this out maybe we need another meet and greet. They clearly claim they have a product that is capable of heating water. This time there is no doubt we are supposedly dealing with a functional product since they took it in for testing, no more prototypes, no more lack of electric cords etc. There should be no problem to have it hooked up to an electric meter and stick a thermometer on each end. There is no need for any elaborate demonstrations or detailed graphs, measurements of individual components, etc etc. Just show us hot water coming out of it. That, combined with a list of carefully thought out questions that should be answered directly and with verifiable facts should go a very long way towards clearing things up. If for whatever reason they refuse to meet face to face at least a conference call answering our questions with an online video demonstration would still be far better than nothing.
If they say no to the above then we can start calling it a scam. What say you Wanderport? You recently said we are afraid to confront you directly, here is your chance to clear your name.
Honestly overall the scam went bad is a possibility. And it's not even that much of a stretch. But it's a little strange that they waited this long to start saying the thing might not work, why wait years and be so vehement that there is no doubt this is the best thing ever and will revolutionize the market. I would be more inclined to think that the sudden change in tone is either due to us complaining about promises not kept or due to results at Intertek not being great, not to this having been a scam all along and only just now starting to say it does not work.
Another thing that is a little strange is the fact that they did work with Intertek and Design1, they must have shown those guys something to be taken seriously and be allowed to use their name in PRs and have pictures taken there etc. So they must have at least something very uncompetitive but that does work in some way...
But at the end of the day, yeah, there's no proof that this isn't a way for them to get out of something bad. Just like there's no proof for any of the other theories. The lack of results so far could be down to a long list of explanations, all of them very plausible...
I'd say theory #2, Intertek results sucked, is by far the most likely out of the 3. The scam theory is pretty unlikely, not a very productive scam if it drags on for years and years with no volume, no dilution, nothing. The internal disagreement is also unlikely if they have a great product. They might argue for a bit but sooner or later they'll all want to make money and something is better than nothing.
I'd add theory #4, product is decent, they agree what to do with it, no horrible test results but they are just incredibly incompetent and/or not motivated and they keep messing up over and over.
And theory #5, everything is ok and they are genuinely trying but bringing this to market is just very complex and despite doing their best it's taking forever. I'd like to believe this but all the progress PRs that were proven to be false prove that they have no problem with misleading investors...
Hope we find out soon which it is, getting a bit tired of this.
So now the language is all IF it pans out, WE HOPE results are good and only know the date in coming WEEKS... This is looking really bad.
1. Realistically if they had a good product that they had tested in house they should be more confident, like they were (or pretended to be) before.
2. There is no reason to need two months since the test was initially failed (because lets face it that's what happened) to try it again. How long does it take to order a piece of testing equipment? Two weeks, assuming slow ground shipping...
3. There is no reason not to take some basic measurements, temp in, temp out, flow rate and current once they were already at Intertek. No reason whatsoever and the basic equipment needed for that was 100% available, it must have been since they sheduled the test.
My guess is when Intertek hooked the device to their testing equipment the results sucked and now they are scrambling to do something about it. The sad part is we are obviously kept in the dark and pretty much lied to...
Lol, so how do most investors feel? Happy? Neither the comments nor the pps seem to suggest that.
And saying that most of the statements regarding progress were proven false and most of the promises were not kept are not investors' feelings, they are facts. Beer and others have poster numerous PRs from the past proving that. We could put them all together in a nice little collection, what was said vs what was proven later and send it to them but it would be a waste of time. Anyway, glad to know there are still happy investors out there.
Feel free to put it on FB anyone. Although I doubt it will actually do anything... I'm sure they know they aren't doing what they should be but we probably "can't handle the truth"...
I am in no way saying that they should not post on FB or keep any information at all away. What I was saying is that they give us no actual information, just very very vague one liners. I definitely think they should put out as much info as possible even if it means using an informal outlet like FB.
Yeah I forgot they don't owe us anything and we never invented anything in our lousy lives and the fall in pps is because of our negativity anyway so we shouldn't complain. We are lucky to have WDRP and should be grateful...
Why put out statements like "We are working to provide Intertek the right specs for them to acquire the necessary testing equipment." after they said that the test was ready to go and even when it was interrupted they said they knew that the equipment was not available anywhere close to them so they must have known what equipment they were looking for! Now they are saying they don't even know what equipment they need. It's insane. Two thermometers, a multimeter, something to measure flow rate, a bucket and a hose. Not that freaking complicated. Unless you want to make it complicated in order to buy time and later make the results impossible to interpret.
And how hard would it be to actually explain to us WHY exactly the test, which supposedly had been outlined in advance was not able to be carried out and what exactly it is that they are doing right now for the last few weeks. A company like Intertek should be able to get enough equipment together to measure one lousy water heater, especially given a month. Claiming otherwise is just insulting investors.
I'm sure many of us would gladly leave if we could. But because of the company's lack of any kind of measurable progress (and only because of that) the pps is where it is and we are stuck holding these shares. I've been defending the company for 3 years now, got banned/suspended several times because of it on ihub but everyone has a point where they say enough, you've had your chance. In this case they have had multiple chances. And nothing ever comes of them. There are countless PRs that clearly state they are in a place where it becomes very obvious they weren't. Or even close. And countless PRs that promised certain things would happen on certain timelines and virtually none of them has happened. At least no hard evidence of any progress. You can argue investors can't have a problem with a startup's rate of progress, you can argue they can't complain if one or two promises aren't kept but when you are essentially lied to for years, then it becomes a little harder to swallow. And to top it all off the company is actually upset because investors are trying to hold them accountable for the many many promises they themselves made. And the fall in pps actually gets blamed on investors.
Right now for example they have the option of explaining exactly how far along they are in figuring out the intertek situation. Of explaining exactly what internal tests have been performed so far. Of explaining why these tests have not been released. Of telling us what the plan is as far as actually making money out of this technology. And I won't even mention explaining what really caused all the delays so far and why they actually were so far off where they said they were. What do they choose to do instead of all those things? Argue with people on FB, insult the vast majority of their investors, blame them for the fall in pps and keep on promising how revolutionary and amazing the technology is without giving any facts or specifics at all.
Basically neither loving it nor leaving it are really viable options for most people right now.
I agree. At this stage complaining does more good than bad. And this was true starting at least a year ago, not just recently. Yes, it does some bad too but at this point we don't have a whole lot to lose, nothing really. Complaining is like those electric paddles in the ER, not a great idea to zap yourself with most times but a possible lifesaver if your ticker stopped... And if you have a couple of investors complaining as soon as the tiniest thing goes wrong then yes, they aren't helping at all but when you have almost everyone complaining for years then the company screwed up and they are most likely right to complain and try to push things forward.
I am not saying they HAVE to explain anything or inform us on anything, not by law. I'm saying that IF they want to have any credibility and respect at all and IF they want current investors to not complain and IF they want new investors they have to address what they delivered versus what they PROMISED so far. Promised on their own, not forced by anyone. If they don't care about any of those things then yes they aren't obligated to explain anything. But they did promise a lot, many many times and delivered absolutely nothing. So yes, we have the right to complain. We probably have very little legal recourse or any power to force them to do anything but we absolutely have the right to be upset and let them know it. And as for attracting other investors by being positive, come on, lets not kid ourselves, you can only pump something for so many years without delivering anything. Nobody is buying into this thing at this point no matter what we say. Yes, it has huge potential in theory but it has absolutely 0 to actually show after these 3 years. Any serious new investor will spend 15 minutes reading PRs from 2 years ago, look at where we actually are now, laugh and move on.
Lol they way they respond to investors complaining about unprofessional communication is by calling them doorknobs??? Wow, no wonder this thing is progressing at a non-existing pace, they have no clue how to run a company. Wonder if they treat their partners the same... And as for saying that it is the negative investors ruining everyone's investment, lol... It is very obvious to everyone who is ruining the company's value. And if they do spend time on FB addressing something, instead of bickering with the "doorknobs" just like before, why not address all the countless quotes from previous PRs with promises that were never met. Explain to us why nothing ever happens. And to the one broken record going on and on about this being a scam, seriously, do we really need complex Canadian scam network theories here? Their utter inability to perform even the most basic tasks is more than enough to explain why things are going the way they are. This looks nothing at all like a scam and everything like the Three Stooges.
My thoughts exactly. They have lost absolutely any right at all to be upset at investors, no matter how much flak they get. They deserve every single thing coming their way and much more. If they cared so much about being respected and treated professionally they should have thought about it when making the promises they made knowing full well there was no way they could deliver any of it, which at this point is proven fact. And this was not once or twice but systematically over years. So WDRP, either actually deliver something, anything at all, or shut up and take anything and say thank you, may I have another sir. So far all we got for our money is righteous indignation and being told how we never invented anything in our lives so we have no right to ask for anything. It is OUR job to buy shares and YOUR job to deliver the product. I can criticize my doctor or my mechanic for doing an appalling job without having to be better at their job than they are.
I don't know about not communicating progress... If they waited until they actually had results and released nothing at all in the meantime we would have had absolutely 0 PRs in the last 3 years. Or ever really... We would all assume the company was long dead. Honestly I think the only good thing that they have done lately is more communication. Yes, there will always be some people that will complain, regardless of what you do, it just comes with the territory. But when you have their history of missing deadlines and delivering nothing I think explaining yourself and keeping investors as informed as possible is a good thing. And pretty much the only thing they have.
That said, I absolutely agree that they need to be much more professional, just release actual information in a concise way and in case there are pertinent questions that a number of investors have address those too but none of the constant bickering and name-calling that goes on on FB right now. And none of the "just wait and see how awesome and revolutionary this will be". Just as many facts as possible and nothing else.
Continuously posting that you are certain this is a scam with no proof whatsoever is not productive in any way and not really convincing anyone, as you can see from the responses you always get.
And for this to be a scam they would need to have smarts, determination and charisma and they have none of those things. They can obviously barely tie their own shoelaces. Not to mention no shares are being traded and nothing is really happening. There were so many opportunities for them to say well, sorry the product won't work, too bad. Instead they keep saying how amazing and revolutionary it will be. They have known for a long time now that the pps won't budge in any way without actual results and nobody will buy any shares, it would be stupid to keep trying to pump this if they knew there was nothing there. I'm sure it's all part of their master plan of deception...