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I'm not saying it will out turn bad but honestly it could. And it is very possible that there is no "variable to tweak" to make the technology they have competitive. It is possible it just can't be made to work efficiently, at least not with the resources they have available. Like, I don't know... a wood powered car. Technically they do/did exist and do work but they aren't exactly taking the market by storm and it would take a huge amount of tweaking to make them competitive and it is likely that it is simply impossible to make them work to the needed standards. Same could go for their heat engine.
As for the reason he said that negative stuff there are 3 possibilities:
1. They know this won't turn out well and are preparing everyone for it. They already dug themselves deep with all the super positive and promising PRs so maybe this is trying to balance that knowing things are bad.
2. They are cautiously optimistic and believe things will turn out well but are trying to play it safe based on all the previously missed deadlines and promises.
3. They know for sure it will work great and are trying to pick up cheap shares before results are out.
Everyone has an opinion as to which one of these options is most likely...
I'd be down for suing them if it turns out they had nothing all along. I mean their PRs were saying this works great in no uncertain terms. But honestly I'm not so sure it would help much. I guess lets see what they come up with in two weeks. If it turns out that thing is a joke then we can go after them, just to feel better if nothing else.
This is total bullshit. Years of PRs saying they are super confident the technology is "all that and a bag of chips" and now they're saying "well, lets see if it works, better start making plans for when it won't". As late as a month or two ago they were saying tests look great, their previous observations are being confirmed, etc. Now they are obviously preparing us for when it will be a shitty result.
Wow, new low... And technically he is right too, all the stress probably literally shaved a few weeks or months off some investors' lives. Saaaad WDRP, real sad!
At this point I really think these guys are trying to wear us out and then when most people have given up just quietly disappear. They won't release any big news ever because that would bring in new investors, with fresh energy, which if you have no product is a problem. The old longs are mostly worn out by now and are starting to give up, maybe only subconsciously at this point but still.
It's up to us if we let that happen or not. Maybe we need a slightly more organized approach, emailing every address we have every week, calling the numbers, maybe contacting the SEC, looking into hiring a lawyer, that type of thing. Maybe also compiling an archive of their statements so we can have a comparison later of what was said promised vs what was delivered.
The whole thing is getting pretty ridiculous... They specifically say they'll give a timeline right after the 4th and two weeks later nothing... Even though they should be done with testing itself by now, forget timelines. Looks like they are giving up on even pretending they have something competitive. All they do is delete posts on FB, like some teenage girl...
Cut the BS WDRP, either show us what you have or admit it won't work out and let the chips fall where they may.
If it's really efficient but it costs a thousand pps still goes up because there will be months, maybe even years between when efficiency is announced and when a unit price is set. So being efficient is all we need right now.
And I wouldn't say that what I said is the definition of a scam. What I was saying is that they could have a genuine product but one that is only so-so in terms of capabilities and value and never makes it very far. But since they are in a huge market and since they are going from being a "possibly scam penny stock" to "legit company with product on shelves" the pps could go up significantly, even for a longer period of time.
Plus, if it is a scam, if this goes to 10c in a month, am I going to care that it did it on actual merit or on smoke and mirrors? Not really... At this point we should push them to finally show what they have and not call it a scam until it's proven to be one.
At this point they definitely have something and I'm 99.99% it heats water because, well, we know microwaves do that. The question is if it can do it efficiently. Even if at this point it isn't reliable and it keeps breaking that would not be a huge problem since an experienced manufacturer (or a collection of them for various parts) could make it handle municipal water and whatever else I am sure. If all the issues they have been having (supposedly) are real that is not such a big problem. The problem comes if they were just ways to stall because the contraption never had a real chance of working and it was always meant as the cover for a scam, regardless of who knew about it, who was involved etc. Unfortunately we don't seem to be any closer to finding out anything, the 4th came and went, the promised timeline is nowhere to be seen and even if we saw it it still wouldn't mean much... But the bottom line is in theory they could have something that while super unreliable and maybe not even that efficient could be good enough to make the pps go up and that's what it's about...
Hmm, fair enough, there may be something there. Still, don't think the AMF or SEC will do anything about anything any time soon. And technically just because they have some connection to some guy who may be involved in some shady stuff doesn't have to mean everything he touches is a scam and this can't be something to make money in. Not necessarily revolutionary but good enough. The thing that is troubling is that there are these connections AND no product which paints a really dark picture. With a product these possible shady connections wouldn't mean much since so far there's no proof of any actual wrongdoing and if there is something to make money on people will jump in anyway. And without a product even if they looked squeaky clean this would still keep falling, just maybe slightly slower. So that's still what it comes down to, how efficient is that contraption, not much else. But yeah, all in all it's not looking great...
On one had I agree these guys are messing up and we should do something to shake them up a bit. If there's anything there at all we'll finally see it, if not at least we'll know and move on. And hell, it'd feel good to see them hang if they ripped us off.
However, saying it is certain that the SEC is investigating is 100% unsubstantiated. There is no proof whatsoever they are involved in any way. Not saying they shouldn't be, just that they aren't. Even the whole AMF deal, I'm 99.99% sure is pretty much dead and nothing will come of it. And also, saying that the three stooges in their garage are part of some giant mafia thing with politicians in their pockets... dunno bout that.
Agree with Beers 100%, a company that is in the position they are in absolutely needs to update investors at the very least at the end of every week. They have had a ridiculous amount of delays with very weak excuses, they are being investigated and most importantly they have delivered ABSOLUTELY nothing in years even though they promised a whole lot. That is not Apple or Ford...
It is not that hard writing a couple of paragraphs in a blog, FB page, newsletter or whatever, takes ten minutes, many people write weekly reports as part of their jobs. And there is absolutely no excuse for not doing it. The lack of answers is by far and away the biggest problem everyone has with them. Sure, you are a tiny company, working part time, small budget, brand new technology, whatever, so things go wrong often, tons of delays... We can understand that but they need to keep us informed, not disappear for months and then come up with some really flimsy excuse that either makes no sense and nobody is buying or would only account for a couple of days of delays.
That is assuming they have something to tell us. But it is becoming more and more obvious that they don't.
Ok, I'll trust your DD, you seem very sure, bold and all...
Robert has been working on it (actually working, not thinking about it at night) for less than FOUR YEARS.
Read it again ... FOUR YEARS
jmo
Fortunately Robert could produce a viable water heater.
jmo :)
Perhaps he realizes nothing will come of it since the technology is not competitive and because of that doesn't want to sink too much time into it. Just enough for the photo-ops to keep the alibi alive and keep all of them out of trouble a while longer. The market for water heating is so huge worldwide and the possibilities for profit are so big that if this was even remotely competitive, forget revolutionary, they would be falling all over themselves, not sleeping or eating, to finish it as soon as possible.
At this point the excuses and delays are becoming ridiculous. Sure, one or two things can always go wrong but years of delays without the tiniest shred of proof of anything coming out of it... Not looking good. They said they'd put out a timeline right after the 4th... that's nowhere to be seen.
Yeah... If Intertek comes out and says anything along the lines of "these guys are talking crap, lying and tarnishing our reputation" or even if they drop them as clients, that's it, end of the line, last nail in the coffin. The fact they are testing over there with a known company is the only thing that gives them the tiniest shred of credibility.
Hopefully a timeline next week. Although WDRP timelines... hardly a guarantee of anything.
I would say at this point both are a given. It is obvious they are lying about some stuff, they are definitely not open about progress, about what really happened at each delay, about what they actually have, about what they had months and years before, etc. And it is also quite obvious they are incompetent otherwise they would either have an actual product by now or would be running a better scam and wouldn't be in this much trouble.
The really sad part is that not only have they not made any progress at all from last year like you said but they actually delivered and proved absolutely nothing whatsoever in all the years they worked on this. I mean what they have shown so far (not just promised but actually proved to have) is something that someone would have after one week of working on this. Some pvc pipes from Home Depot or wherever, some old microwave oven parts, a cord and plug, a plain metal enclosure and bingo, you have a device that heats water to some degree. I am not saying that's all they have but that is absolutely all they have proven they have, so far. No third party confirmation of a working product, no numbers, no graphs, no manufacturer contracts, no firm orders for products, no videos, no demonstrations, absolutely nothing. And on top of that they keep insisting on not telling us anything and berating us for asking...
He didn't say "they have a product that heats water but just not to the claims they made", he said "they do have a device that does heat water but that just doesn't have a chance of becoming the marketable products they have claimed". That's a very different statement. If they have something that is somewhat competitive with existing units but just not revolutionary then yes we are in good shape. But if they have something that technically does raise the temperature of water somewhat but isn't nearly efficient enough then it's not much different from having nothing.
The 4 options would be:
1. They have something really revolutionary, like they promised, 30% more efficient than existing units. I don't think anyone believes that anymore, literally not a single person. If they had anything like that they would not have acted the way they did. Not technically impossible but...
2. They have something that is somewhat competitive with existing units and could be sold somewhere for some purpose. This is definitely technically possible but becoming less and less likely as time goes by. It would be the best case scenario for us.
3. They have something that technically heats water but is very inefficient. I would say this is the most likely scenario at this point unfortunately, at least the one that best matches their behavior.
4. They have nothing at all, like some here claim. This is very very unlikely since in 3-4 years of development and with Robert being a real inventor and microwaves heating water being a proven concept, Intertek being involved etc. that's just not very likely.
Basically all comes down to those efficiency results. And I think they will be very complex and hard to read with missing info so should be interesting when they come out :)
I didn't say this was a scam and I definitely didn't say he wanted to be in it. Things are not always black and white, there are a lot of scenarios.
Maybe they all genuinely believed they had something but realized later they didn't.
Maybe they had no intention of coming up with a real product and never believed in what he had but he didn't know that and genuinely believed in his product.
Maybe his other business doesn't make enough money and he willingly went into the scam. Or maybe he thought it might be a scam but he also thought there is a chance the product will work out.
Maybe it isn't a scam at all and they will release something at some point.
There's a lot of possible scenarios, a lot of possible motivations for all the players involved. All I was saying was that IF this was a scam what they are doing by stalling does actually make some sense.
Agree 100%. And I'm sure a lot, probably most investors feel exactly the same way. But you know, given enough years... It will have an effect.
Well, it may actually be to delay the inevitable and not go to jail. If you put yourself in a situation where u are staring jail in the face, what do you do, just admit to it and go in or keep buying yourself time, even knowing that chances are very slim you get away with it? It's simple human nature, even if you are 100% sure that you will go to jail you still try as hard as possible to delay it.
And in most cases, such as this case, there is a chance that the longer they drag it on the more likely something is to happen like the case being dropped, evidence being inadmissible due to some mistake or some legal challenge from them, etc. And especially investors being worn out, that's a big one. If everyone slowly mentally becomes ok with the idea that nothing will come of it and money is gone they are less likely to sue than if a bomb is dropped on you one day that all the promises were smoke and mirrors and there's nothing there. If someone told me the company is a scam (and it was proven) 3 years ago I would have been shocked and on the phone with a lawyer straight away. If proof comes out today I won't be very shocked at all. Maybe that's what they are trying to do, wear us out.
And last point is they maybe are trying to build an alibi, where when it eventually turns out they had nothing or had a joke of a product they can say, no, look, we had all this stuff that looked amazing and was tested by a national company and they loved it and we were so close but whatever, something happened, investors were impatient or a technical thing didn't work like we thought or Robert got sick or something. But we had something very real, we weren't lying, it just didn't work out like so many start-ups don't, but we tried for years to make it work. Not bullet-proof but much better for them than saying yeah we promised all this stuff and never had anything.
So bottom line, yes, I think they could know full well nothing will ever come of this, they may have known for years, and they could still drag it on exactly the way they are doing right now and it would make perfect sense. It's not a genius plan that guarantees them anything but it's far better than nothing and can only benefit them in the long run.
That's my reaction too... Disbelief. Intertek has equipment at one location that only an engineer at some other location can adjust?? Is there no staff at this location? And these components need to still be adjusted after 3 years of almost being ready for production, according to them? I will give them the benefit of the doubt, since they at least told us something, as opposed to the ridiculous 1 sentence followed by a month of silence before. And they did say days, not weeks or months. But for me one more snag like this and I'll be convinced they have nothing and are stalling.
Lol... Typical WDRP wording, can have 10 different meanings. Since it's followed by "and receipt" I would say by "disposition" they meant parts being sent. And since it says "critical components" I am guessing they don't mean destroying them and they do know what they are and what they need. I realize that was sarcasm, pretty sure we all know what they tried to say, in their usual murky way. What it actually means, now that's a different story...
This here is the new new new new new WDRP. That deadline was from the new new new new WDRP, which is now old news. So technically these guys haven't had any delays so far, everything is going according to plan and something major and revolutionary is just around the corner.
Also, don't expect 30% more efficient than existing units, won't happen. In fact, it's starting to look like the only hot water will be the one they'll be in when we finally sue them and/or some government entity gets their claws in them...
I think if I was these guys, with their huge history of badly worded PRs and vagueness, constantly torn apart whenever they say anything, I would sweat every single word I put out there ten times over, maybe have someone who is not Canadian go over posts before, etc. and avoid these constant communication problems. Unless of course the lack of clarity is on purpose. Wonder which one it is...
Lol seriously? We all know what they said. And what they delivered so far... And anyway I specifically said it wasn't a literal quote. but they did say something along those lines. It boggles my mind that someone can still be defending the company at this stage. Wondering exactly how many delays and broken promises does it take for everyone to realize things are not peachy? I mean completely ignoring the entire AMF deal and ties to shady characters and all that mess, focusing only on their promises vs what they delivered and nothing else, how can someone read all those awesome PRs over years, then look at what has been delivered so far, which is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and then say, yeah ok, things are moving along nicely??
Not saying they couldn't eventually come up with something but at this point things are getting ridiculous and the fact that some are defending the company here and on FB allows them to say that there is a small group of negative posters trying to bash them, when reality is this whole thing is a "shipwreck", to use their term, and hardly anyone genuinely believes in them anymore.
Ugh, that is not good news... They are STILL tinkering with that thing... And still not telling us what's going on. Do they need parts for the unit? Is it because of it breaking or is it changes to the design or what? Or are the components part of the testing equipment? Something else entirely? When will they be shipped, when will they be received, when is testing expected to be done? Care to answer any of that WDRP? Of course not, cause a company doesn't have to update its investors, ever. Anyway, by the looks of that message minimum another month before we get any kind of news, assuming we ever do.
I said the same thing, that "seen to be good" wording is not very promising. Along with another couple of things they said like "still work to be done" or something like that...
Does anyone have any info on what the progress is, any updates on FB, anything at all? Hopefully we aren't looking at another 6 months of silence and nothing happening...
I'll start, I expect numbers similar to that of a comparable tankless water heater in the $450 range. Numbers to include power consumption(along with input voltage used), flow rate, and temp change. Maybe even the size of the unit, after all, if the WDRP unit to accomplish this is bigger than the bathtub, that hardly won't cut it. You know, something we can compare to the market specs of units currently on the market.
Not saying they HAVE to make a shower heater out of it. If they decide the technology is better used somewhere else then fine. Although home water heaters are such a giant market worldwide it would be really crazy to stay out of it. What I am saying is if the technology is not good enough to be scalable into at least an economic competitive point of use water heater then there is a very serious problem because it means it is very likely also not good enough for most other uses.
Bottom line is if it can't compete with an existing electric tankless unit as far as efficiency, power (delta temp and flow), cost and size then it won't find any place in ANY market since we already know existing heaters with old-school heating elements scale pretty well, from a tiny coffee maker to some giant industrial heater.
The reason they haven't missed any deadlines lately is because they stopped giving deadlines and went completely dark apart from some photos with little explanation. That's not good.
And for a shower water heater to be considered viable it needs to have a flow of about 2.2 GPM and get the water to about 110 deg for a hot shower. With a worst case scenario of ground water close to freezing that's a almost 80deg temperature delta. Maybe 70 might just cut it or less in warmer climates... Those are very rough numbers but definitely in the ballpark. Anything less than that and it isn't a household point of use unit, it is something else... They may be able to market it as something else but if the technology can't be scaled up enough to provide at least a point of use unit (and economically as far as price, size and current needed) then chances are it's a failure.
Well said. The idea of not releasing updates or shooting videos because some will doubt them or attack them is absolutely ridiculous and the lamest excuse ever invented. The only thing going dark for 6 months does is put us where we are now, crap pps, no trust in the company and the old "let us protect you from this scam" crew coming out of the woodwork again.
That "investigation" is slower than the company releasing the heater. Pretty much nothing to start with and nothing else in 2 years now. And yes I know 3 people are maybe cease traded somewhere in Canada, big whoop.
On one hand saying they've been on it for 10 years and that it is a fact that it's a scam and huge conspiracy is a bunch of unsubstantiated hot air. On the other hand it is a fact that they promised a whole bunch of stuff they never delivered. The testing right now looks promising, at least for a temporary pop if not for the long run but like I said before, without actual verifiable results this isn't going anywhere, they have 0 trust left with investors.
Haha, that's exactly what I was thinking, as soon as the results are revealed they might have to "GO!" somewhere warm and far from court rooms...
Meh, who knows maybe they actually have something decent. Not expecting anything ground breaking but any real product should make the pps go up quite a bit. Hopefully after all this testing they have meaningful numbers, not just fluff and "observations".
We wouldn't really have to guess what they are doing and how long it will take if they actually told us. It's been exactly 6 months since the last official PR. That is pretty crazy even with a company with not much going on. There should be a law that no company should be allowed to go more than one quarter without an official update to investors. Their excuses that people will attack their PRs are just lame... Even if you don't have final results there is no reason not to tell us what you've been doing over the past 6 months, what you are doing right now and what the plan is going forward. Mysterious FB photos only go so far.
He probably wants to keep his back warm cause of the surgery or maybe he's one of those people who feels cold all the time. He's the warmest dressed there and one of the other guys is in short sleeves. Most photos these days you can extract the metadata and tell exactly when and where it was taken, doubt they'd risk saying it was one time when it wasn't.
We should have over-analyzed everything much sooner. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Like I said, I hold a ton of shares and really hope they pull this off. But these guys are masters at leaving little gaps that are open to interpretation so they can later justify not delivering anything. Anyway, whatever, no point going back and forth, let's wait and see what happens.