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NYBob

08/30/13 5:08 AM

#33045 RE: JONAH 2 #33042

Putin to cut the West off from the Saudi oil - #1 ussr target -
he must be a pawn to the 666 khazarian oil king pin Rockefeller -

http://www.eutimes.net/2013/08/putin-orders-massive-strike-against-saudi-arabia-if-west-attacks-syria/

gasoline will be $10.-/liter if you find any to buy -

the food will be gone from all stores in no time -
it will be hard to find anything to eat for most People -
and you can thx 666 BS osama anti-Christ for it? -

http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=91553924

God Bless
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JONAH 2

08/30/13 6:25 PM

#33046 RE: JONAH 2 #33042

THOUGHT PROVOKING COMMENTS ON--
---JOHN 8:58 ----
"RS reads: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [Greek, e·go' ei·mi'].’” ( NE, KJ, TEV, JB, NAB all read “I am,” some even using capital letters to convey the idea of a title. Thus they endeavor to connect the expression with Exodus 3:14, where, according to their rendering, God refers to himself by the title “I Am.”)

However, in another Bible translation the latter part of John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (The same idea is conveyed by the wording in AT, Mo, CBW, and SE translations)

Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·go' ei·mi' as a title to the holy spirit.

[url][/url][tag]insert-text-here[/tag]Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·mi'] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go' ei·mi'] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394."

"AT JOHN 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”?
At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised.

The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’”

The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:

1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—
see Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.

Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”—The Simple English Bible. "

"Jesus—“Jehovah of the Old Testament”?
" Obviously, Jesus was not an ordinary human. He was unique because, as the Bible tells us, he enjoyed life in heaven before coming to the earth. (John 6:38, 62) He thus had knowledge and abilities beyond those of ordinary humans. This helps to explain his miracles and his outstanding wisdom.

But does Jesus’ prehuman existence mean that he was God? A teacher’s manual makes that claim, saying: “Whenever Jesus referred to Himself as ‘I Am’ . . . , He identified Himself as the Jehovah of the Old Testament.” Is this true?

According to the King James Version rendering of Exodus 3:13, 14, Moses asked: “When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” About this text,

The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (Hebrew text with English translation and exposition, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz) says that in the phrase “I am that I am . . . the emphasis is on the active manifestation of the Divine existence.” Its use as a title or name for God was therefore appropriate because by delivering them from Egyptian bondage God was about to manifest his existence in behalf of his people in an outstanding way. Hertz says that “most moderns follow Rashi [a renowned medieval French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering ‘I will be what I will be.’”

This agrees with the rendering of the New World Translation of the Bible, which reads: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”

At John 8:58, once again the King James Version has Jesus using the expression “I am” in connection with himself, saying, “Before Abraham was, I am.” But here the expression is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or title but simply as a means of explaining his prehuman existence.

Thus, according to the New World Translation, the more correct rendering of John 8:58 is: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

Clearly, no Scriptural basis exists for the claim that Jesus is the same as Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the teacher’s manual previously quoted admits: “That Christ existed before His birth in Bethlehem does not in itself prove He was God (He could have existed as an angel).” In fact, this is what the Bible teaches. In his prehuman existence, Jesus was “a god,” or divine one, but not the God, the almighty God Jehovah.—please see John 1:1-3; Moffatt Translation --1 Thessalonians 4:16 -Galatians 4:14--Exodus 23:20-23 ."
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JONAH 2

09/03/13 9:47 PM

#33063 RE: JONAH 2 #33042

" Development of Trinity in the Creeds---
PROBABLY most churchgoers today believe that Jesus Christ and his apostles developed the doctrine of the Trinity. However, Professor E. Washburn Hopkins explains in his book Origin and Evolution of Religion, page 336: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; at any rate, they say nothing about it.” They formulated no creed defining a Trinity.

The fact is, the word “trinity” does not even once occur in the Holy Bible. Nor are such expressions as “one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” or “one substance with the Father,” found in the Bible. To the contrary, the Bible speaks of Christ as “the beginning of the creation by God,” and says that “the head of the Christ is God.” (Rev. 3:14; 1 Cor. 11:3) Thus, the New Catholic Encyclopedia says of the Trinity: “It is not, as already seen, directly and immediately the word of God.”—Volume 14, page 304.

UNKNOWN TO EARLY CHURCHMEN
Nor was the ‘three persons in one God’ concept developed immediately after the death of Jesus and his apostles. This is noted by Episcopal professor of church history James Arthur Muller, who writes: “This lack of a formulated doctrine of the Trinity reflects the theological thought of the second century. In the works of Justin Martyr, who wrote in about 150 A.D., the preexistence of the Son is stressed, yet in relation to the Father He is spoken of as ‘in the second place.’”—Creeds and Loyalty, page 9.

Even toward the end of the second century the prominent churchman Irenaeus spoke of Christ as being subordinate to God, not equal to him.—See Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 2, chapter 28, section 8.
Thus the Trinity was unknown to early churchmen. Actually it was some 400 years or more after the death of Christ that the concept of ‘three persons in one God’ was finally formulated by men and introduced into the church.

THE APOSTLES’ CREED
“But,” someone may object, “did not the apostles themselves compose the Apostles’ Creed? And does not this creed teach the Trinity?”
That the twelve apostles wrote this creed was taught for centuries, and it was piously believed. But this claim has been proved untrue. Actually, the evidence reveals that the “Apostles’ Creed” was framed by men living hundreds of years later!

The Faith of Christendom, a source book of creeds and confessions, edited by B. A. Gerrish, observes: “So far, then, from being composed by the Apostles in person, we have no reason to assume that the Creed which bears their title appeared less than five hundred years after their time.”

Examine the Apostles’ Creed set forth below:
“I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost; born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.”

You can see that nothing is said here about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost as being “one God.” However, during the years in which the Apostles’ Creed was being formulated great controversy developed over the nature of Christ. What exactly was his relationship to God? Was he lesser than and distinct from God, or was Jesus God himself?

THE NICENE CREED
By the fourth century some churchmen, including the young archdeacon Athanasius, were arguing that Jesus and God were one and the same person. On the other hand, men such as the presbyter Arius held to the position of the Bible, that Jesus was created by God and was subordinate to his Father.

In 325 C.E. a church council, called by Roman Emperor Constantine, met in Nice, Asia Minor, to decide on such issues. At this council pagan Emperor Constantine favored the side of Athanasius. Therefore, the views expressed by Arius, although based solidly on the Bible, were declared heretical.

Hence there followed an ‘experimenting with words and sharpening of phrases’ to design a creedal tool to use against those who held that Christ had a beginning and was not the same substance as the Father. In its original form, the Nicene Creed was clearly designed to combat the position of Arius.

It concluded with this pronouncement, which was later dropped from the creed:
“But those who say there was a time when he was not; or that he was not before he was begotten; or that he was made from that which had no being; or who affirm the Son of God to be of any other substance or essence, or created, or variable, or mutable, such persons doth the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematize [curse].”

Noteworthy, too, is the fact that the original creed drawn up at Nice did not give personality to the Holy Ghost. However, later additions, believed to have been made at the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E., did.

The creed drawn up at Nice in 325 C.E., with its later alterations, passed into history as the Nicene Creed. It reads as follows:
“I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And I believe one catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

After carefully reading the Nicene Creed, it is interesting to note that in it the Trinity is not yet completely defined. The Father and Son are asserted to be of the same substance, and the Holy Ghost is called “Lord and Giver of Life,” but these three are not said to be “one God.” There was to be yet further ‘experimenting with words and sharpening of phrases.’

THE ATHANASIAN CREED
It is in the Athanasian Creed that the Trinity was finally defined. As you recall, Athanasius was the young archdeacon who prominently supported the views set forth in the Nicene Creed. Did he also compose this creed bearing his name?

This is what was believed for centuries, but this has definitely been proved untrue. The Faith of Christendom observes on page 61: “The attribution of the Creed to Athanasius was exposed in the seventeenth century by the Dutch scholar G. J. Voss. It has been argued on internal evidence that the document may be dated to the period between A.D. 381 and 428.”

However, there is no certain evidence for such an early date for the creed. In fact, there is no reference to it in completed form until hundreds of years later! Thus, John J. Moment, in his book on the creeds, states flatly: “Athanasius had been dead for five hundred years when it appeared.” (We Believe, page 118)

Observe how the Athanasian Creed defines the Trinity:
“ . . . we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
“So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet there are not three almightys, but one almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say there be three Gods and three Lords.

“The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. . . . ”

So, many hundreds of years after the death of Jesus Christ, the Trinity doctrine was finally formulated. Men had, in the words of theologian N. Leroy Norquist, “experimented with words, sharpened phrases, until they had defined the relation of the three ‘persons’ of the Trinity in such a way that they could finally say, ‘Unless you believe this you’re not a true believer.’”
In this way, therefore, the concept of God now held in most churches was formularized.

WIDE ACCEPTANCE
Perhaps, though, you may not believe that your church really approves these creeds. It is true that the trend has been not even to attempt to teach parishioners the perplexing concept of God that they propound. But this does not mean that the creeds have been rejected by the churches. To the contrary, almost all churches still hold to their confusing concept of God.

That the Roman Catholic Church does is clearly stated in The Catholic Encyclopedia under its heading “Trinity.” After citing a portion of the Athanasian Creed, it declares: “This, the Church teaches.”
The Church of England also endorses the Apostles’, Nicene and Athanasian creeds. The Protestant Episcopal Church does too, explaining that from the Church of England it “is far from intending to depart . . . in any essential point of doctrine.”

Lutheran bodies also embrace these creeds. The constitution of the Lutheran Church in America, Article II, section 4, says: “This church accepts the Apostles’, the Nicene, and the Athanasian creeds as true declarations of the faith of the Church.” Similarly, the constitution of the United Church of Christ states: “It claims as its own the faith of the historic Church expressed in the ancient creeds . . . ”

Presbyterians endorse the Nicene Creed, and so do major Methodist bodies. These religions officially hold the Trinitarian concept. Although Baptist bodies generally do not subscribe to creeds, the Associate General Secretary of the American Baptist Convention observes regarding the Athanasian Creed: “I am confident that most American Baptists would be in substantial agreement with its contents.”
It is true that certain churches of Christendom may not officially endorse any creeds, yet almost all do uphold the Trinitarian dogma that they developed.

Thus John J. Moment wrote regarding the Athanasian Creed in his book We Believe: “Its stereotyped definitions have continued to be accepted in Protestantism, more or less consciously, as the norm of orthodoxy.”
God’s Word, however, is in direct opposition to this ‘three persons in one God’ concept. The Bible says that God is the “King of eternity,” and is without beginning or end. (1 Tim. 1:17; Ps. 90:2)

But the Bible says that, unlike his eternal Father, Jesus is “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Rev. 3:14) Further proof that Jesus and God are not one and the same or equal is seen in the fact that upon Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, “God exalted him to a superior position.” (Phil. 2:9) If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, he could not have been exalted any further, for that would have made him superior to God.

How evident that the Trinity doctrine was not taught by the first-century Christians!
The Bible teaching is clear. Jehovah is the Almighty God who “created all things.” (Rev. 4:11) Jesus Christ is “God’s Son,” not Almighty God himself. (Luke 1:35) And the holy spirit is not a person but is God’s active force with which persons can be filled. (Acts 2:4) --------
Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite.—Jer. 10:10." "

------Bible Commentary ---