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mlsoft

03/01/03 2:59 PM

#81780 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

Zeev...

I understand your point about disposable income, but there are other limitations that come into play as a result of the record consumer debt. It is undeniable that the average consumer is at least somewhat in distress, as is attested to by the rapidly rising levels of bankruptcies and defaults, especially on their homes - mortgage delinquencies and defaults are both at all time highs.

The consumer has been holding the economy up with steady spending at very high rates, which I believe are unsustainable. The source of much of the money used for the extra spending in recent years has been the consumer draining the equity out of his home in absolute terms even as its value has increased. But there is a limit as to how much money can be taken out that has nothing to do with the monthly payment, and that is the value of the home itself - lending institutions will not lend more than the house is worth and normally will lend only some percentage of the home's value (around 80% without some penalties). I believe that substantially all of the equity cash that is reasonably available has already been tapped by those consumers that are willing to do so.

The final factor is that with all the uncertainties in the world, including the slowing economy and rising unemployment, the consumer is even more unwilling to tap into his equity for other than debt consolidation and not to finance new spending.

The net result of all the above is that the consumer can no longer be counted on to support the economy and indeed will be pulling in his horns and drag the economy down.

Just my opinion, though.

mlsoft
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Mustache Pete

03/01/03 3:00 PM

#81781 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

A while back you stated your belief that the demise of the space shuttle was the result of sabotage. One. Mississippi. Two. Mississippi. Three. Who was the culprit?

a.
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mish

03/01/03 3:01 PM

#81782 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

The figure of "merit" is debt service to disposable income and that is far from a record.

ahhh.
But what about increasing layoffs and bankruptcies?
Where are the jobs to support this debt?
Is it getting worse or better?
Also is the debt evenly spread out or is there a lot of consumer debt in the hands of those that do not have the income to pay? I think bankruptcies explains that last question.

I think continued loss of jobs especially high paying jobs to India etc, in return for marginally paying jobs is going to be a huge disater.

I believe I asked this before but did not get an answer.
Where are job increases going to come from?
What kind of jobs will they be?
What happens when GM or F goes on strike. I think those contracts are up this year but perhaps I am wrong.

Given the stall speed this economy is heading into, with a possible double dip coming up, are these debt levels more like a country at the bottom of a recession or at the top? Unfortunately the double dip has not even hit yet. What will that do to the ability to afford this debt?

Lots of questions here Zeev.
Unfortunately I have no answers.
Does anyone?

M




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optionking

03/01/03 3:35 PM

#81792 RE: Zeev Hed #81766


ZEEV...u think the Al-Qaida suspect arrrest could spook the markets higher next week???
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ajtj99

03/01/03 3:38 PM

#81794 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

Well, I just thought you'd get a kick out of the J6P being used in the headline. <G>
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profit_guy

03/01/03 3:40 PM

#81795 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

zeev,

what would you expect the mkt reaction to be if the US starts the war with iraq next sunday (mar 9th) and we are at say 1400 by close next fri?...would you expect a sharp sell off to the 1200 area still, or would a rally commence from 1400?...imo, with turkey agreeing to allow US troops on their soil today, and with the Screaming Eagles having been deployed yesterday according to CNN, the US is very close to telling france, germany and russia that "they can all talk resolutions til they are blue in the face, but we're going in NOW"

thanks in advance,

pg


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jdaasoc

03/01/03 7:30 PM

#81812 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

that consumer debt is at a record level is really not that critical if consumer's disposable income is also at a record level

Agreed. The consumer is going back to the stores again with reckless abandon. Fueling their spending and cushioning the lenders from what could be any 1-2% higher default rates are low interest rates and deficit government spending.

The potential of falling GDP is more remote and growing more remote month by month since people are hard pressed to stop spending.

Bush seems to totally committed to reducing our oil import dependent deficit by pushing full speed ahead with war with Iraq.
It is the manufactured goods deficit I just can't see clearly how we fix it. A much cheaper dollar could in theory fix the shortfall in exports but I don't see how it comes without the pain of domestic inflation in the form of increased cost of imported goods since at some point the Asian countries would not mark their currencies to US dollar. This would be very bitter medicine to take IMO. I can see Americans complaining much more bitterly then what has visited South America.

You have been focusing on trade deficit to GDP ratio as short circuiting the stock market as it gets to 5%. Go over this one more time with as many of new facts as they now stand.
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Culmus

03/02/03 9:05 AM

#81858 RE: Zeev Hed #81766

Zeev, re housing market and consumer debt

I have been looking into precisely these matters last year, if I may add some comments to the discussion:

Household debt service has indeed reached a close to record high again during the third quarter last year at 14.0% of disposable income, though it was down from the record high of 14.39% during 2001Q4:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Household_Debt_Service_Burden.pdf

The previous record high was at 14.38% (ggg) during 1986Q4. There is no reliable data available prior to 1980. The debt service burden of private households reached a record for mortgage debt during 2001Q4, while consumer debt service at 7.8% of disposable income currently is indeed below the previous record of 8.5%, reached also in 1986Q4.

I believe the single most important point to ponder in this discussion is the fact that interest rates are vastly lower compared to the last time debt service was at such an elevated level. Looking at the picture in the context of interest rates now and then:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Household_Debt_Service_Burden_and_interest_rates.pdf

Ooops, I realize I forgot to translate that one (g). Same graph as above, total debt service in pink, consumer debt service in green, mortgage debt service in in blue and the interest rate of 10-year treasury securities with constant maturity in red.

IMO this shows that the impact of any notieceable rate hike will have a disproportionately negative impact on private consumption as the debt service burden will increase sharply.

As mlsoft rightly pointed out, even as interest rates are at record lows the number of private bankruptcies reached a record 1.5 million during 2002:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Household_Debt_Service_and_insolvencies_2002Q4.pdf

The same goes for credit and debit card charge-offs of banks and their reserves for bad debt.

In my personal opinion the US economy is living on borrowed time as the strong housing market is keeping the consumer afloat, for the moment. But there is underlying weakness, portending economic distress once this housing boom runs out of steam. Just look at the sharply lower equity stake in household real estate taken from the Flow of Funds accounts:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Owners_Equity_of_Household_Real_Estate.pdf

Households' equity in real estate is down from around 70% in the early Eighties to around 57% now, all this while household real estate ownership has reached a new record level.

This, of course, is due to refinancing activities which have been extremely high during the last one and half years. The majority of households have increased their mortage when refinancing and many used the proceeds to improve on their homes:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Housing_Market_-_Mortgage_and_Refinancing_Activity_MBAA_200210...

But cash-out refinancings also have reached record levels, which has boosted private consumption, especially during 2001 and 2002:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Housing_-_Cash-out_Chart_TSC_20020926.jpg

I agree that all this does not pose a problem as long as home prices continue to increase and as long as inflation remains low. However, this should not be expected indefinately.

That the situation does not further improve but rather starts to deteriorate is evidenced by record high vacancy rates:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/q402tab1.html

Note, vacancy rates now are much higher than they were at the end of the Eighties after the savings and loan debacle. While home prices continue to rise and construction continues to boom due to record low interest rates the rising vacancy rate indicates that it makes less and less economic sense to build homes intended for rent. Probably the most telling aspect of all this is evidenced by the following graph:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/culmus/Housing_-_Home_Prices_-_CPI_-_Rents_200301.pdf

Home prices have been increasing a lot faster than both, the CPI and owner's equivalent rents as shown with the indexed comparison posted above. It is the same discrepancy that preceeded the slowdown in the real estate market after 1988. Mind you, for a profound (negative) impact of the housing market on the economy we don't need a bursting real estate bubble. If prices do just stop to increase at their current rates it will put a noticeable damper on private consumption. This happend from 1989 to 1994 and we had a recession in between. According to the housing association the real estate market comprises about 20% of the economy, if that slows down a lot of the forces keeping the economy afloat right now will dissipate.

If interest rates should increase just 2 percentage points the debt service will hit the consumer quite hard.

The next consumer led recession resulting from rising inflation and hence followed by interest rate hikes could turn into a rather nasty one. IMVHO.

Regards,

Culmus

ps. Thanks for all the work you are doing here. ggg