Replies to post #1074 on OPEN DISCUSSION BOARD

[blasher]

perfectly stated 'PokerSam' .. thanks!
I agree totally.

[JLS]

Poker,

As I stated earlier, my use of the word 'fact' is in the scientific sense -- as in the Scientific Method -- and that is the same sense as the dictionary defines the word.

All I'm saying is that if we are going to have a discussion of religion using the English language, let's use the words as an English dictionary defines them.

Using the Scientific Method, no religion nor no God can be proven to exist. All religions are faith based.

I realize that (most) religious people accept many (all) of the things they believe as being fact. That's were the problem is. What they believe is based on faith, not fact.

And as you say, and rightly so -- many people have had to change their religious beliefs based on what science has shown to be true.

For instance, it was once believed (as religious fact) that the earth was the center of the universe; in fact, that the earth was the center of our solar system. Many people were imprisoned -- in fact, tortured and often put to death in cruel ways by religious zealots -- for believing otherwise. We all know what the Scientific Method did with that religious 'fact'.

Notice I used the word zealot. It is not intended as an insult. The word means to show excessive enthusiasm. That's all. It doesn't mean that the zealot is crazy or stupid, or even mentally sluggish. But it would be a fair description of one who thinks of his religious beliefs as being fact-based and not faith-based. It takes too much enthusiasm to accept as fact that which is based only on faith.

Another example: most religious people do not accept evolution as fact.

I say: evolution is fact, and religious people should faithfully believe that God created evolution as a means of continuing His work.

[JLS]

Pokersam,

I know you don't fully understand my point.

That's because you mix, and misuse, words such as fact, faith, existence, revelation, believe, know, evidence, visions, authority, and knowledge; and don't distinguish or appreciate their differences.

Consider some major Biblical writings which are the basis of modern Christian and Jewish belief. Consider when those writings were made and by whom.

Many, if not all, the major writers (and I could make a list) were imprisoned, often put in an environment of low oxygen and high carbon monoxide, tortured, made slaves, subjected to malnutrition, contracted disease and viruses while imprisoned, or eventually outright put to death (usually by what we would call torture, or given to the Gladiators to play with). It is no wonder that they would not eventually under those circumstances (while surviving, or if they survived) suffer illnesses and have visions and dreams and see angels. To them, death would be the ultimate gift, a sort of Heaven, and I'm sure they knew that death would take them to a better place. Who wouldn't?

That life, if you call it that, is not the stuff of divine revelation and truth and knowledge and authority. It's the stuff of hallucinations, and some pretty good story telling and metaphor and poetry which are the only things the Bible is good for -- in my mind. And that makes the Bible a group of interesting and entertaining stories, but not fact.

I don't mind using the word revelation. But revelation is only information revealed, not fact revealed. Information can be true, but it can just as easily be false.

As a child, I had the record (of all adults and children) in my hometown for the number of years I went to church without missing a single day. I received a medal every year that would form a string of medals that would hang from my chest when pinned to my suit jacket. I had 14 medals when I moved from town. I was 14 years old. In our new town I was asked if I wanted to go to the local church. I said "no, thank you". My mother, devoutly religious, always gave me my way. That freedom of choice never spoiled me, and I have always been quite the frugal person. But, too bad she didn't ask earlier. It was just that their God never made logical sense to me. So I, like hundreds of millions of others, made up my own God, and it makes logical, scientific sense; and it is both alive and dead and is everywhere, listens and speaks, receives and gives, and is both good and evil. Just like the God in the Bible without all the garbage and the collection plate.