Replies to post #72788 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[huffandpuff]

Flush your head z

[titan3]

Bush's mystery bulge

http://cryptome.org/bush-bulge.htm#28

[ieddyi]

It could be argued that in fact his actions and the resultant loss of will on the part of the american public resulted in MORE deaths to the vietnamese and Laotians and cambodians. Did you forget the 100s of thousands that died in the communist purges that followed our withdrawl?
How can you laud efforts that included branding his fellow soldiers as barbarians, as people who took part in war crimes on a daily basis. If you were one of the soldiers at the hanoi hilton you wouldn't have lauded his efforts as you heard his testimony boradcast as you were in captivity in an effort to break your will.
NONE of the allegations of the Swifties has been authoritatively disputed. Many have been verified as Kerry has admitted that he wasn't in cambodia on christmas eve and that the first purple heart was caused by a self inflicted wound. Evidence has come to light that teha ction report for his bronze star and 3rd purple heart was written by kerry himself.
Rather than using pretzel logic to try and refute the claims of the swifties, you dismiss them offhand you resort to writing it all off to faulty memory.
If Kerry was possesed of unusual guts and courage he would admit he made a mistake in his characterization of his fellow soldiers and apologize. He though he was playing to his constituency in making the charges, aimed at advancing his political career. He played off the scare tactics of hte nixon admin. to gain political favor in way liberal Mass.
If the only logic you can use to refute the validity of hte swifties charges is that nixon didn't drop the hammer on him then, and that satisfies you, then so be it. But, looked at in any logical way, it does not do anyhting to dispute the truthfullness of their allegations. You cn't pint to any of their charges that have been refuted with facts

[huffandpuff]

Nixon ended the war that was lost not in nam but here in America,the millions of people murdered after we pulled out were forgotten and hidden by the media slimeballs that helped us lose as they want to happen here!The political correct crap that kept us from winning nam is what's killing our troops now!We had no problem killing christians in bosnia nor blowing up every bridge and main road in the f ing place but that war had a D on it and the monica thing was hitting home,something had to be done for billybob.Not only was the protesting of that fiasco never seen or herd but it is touted as a great clinton success - it meant NOTHING and still means nothing unless your are a terrorist in that case I guess it was a victory,in bosnia the churchs are burning as we speak by the islamofaciast garbage that is creaping into the country like a cancer,the u.n. can't help anyone over there and the press doesn't give a flying crap.But they're all concerned about the freedom fighters,the insurgents and the stinkin mosque,they care more for the mosque than the soldiers.The head chopping is no big deal but God forbid we put the panty's on the head of these slimeballs.Like I say their INSANE!That panty thing gets ol kennedy all foaming from the lips or was that from something else?teddy didn't bat an eye over drowning the girl or at least watching her drown,funny how we never looked into that - little media slippage there. So kerry's gonna form a coalition of the willing to help us fight a wraang waar at the wraaang place,what a leader -?- and he's gonna ask the criminals that stabbed us in the back,sold weapons to sadam and stole oil for food $ to be our buddy's now and fight with us,hmmm wonder how much that's gonna cost?Oh I cant wait,I bet the Iraqi people cant wait to be slaughtered by the millions just like the last time liberalism got involved in a war.I dont hear all you good libs concern about them?I'll bet our soldiers are gonna be real thrilled to have john kerry as their commander - you can always trust a jiggalo,especially one that has and will conspire with our enemy's.I mean he's been real helpful so far hasn't he?Why doesn't the dem party find their roots?They thru out Zell Miller the only one that could have saved them or did he just get fed up and walked out of the cesspool that used to be a proud party?
I'm starting to get an attitude and dont need this Zeev well I love ya man cause I know your a good person but I'll never ever understand your thinking on this,oh and I hate this site it stinks!Not that you should care!Good Evening!

[tinner]

I said almost the same thing and be aware that hap put me on ignore, as if you would care.

[wstera2]

"Can you explain why the Nixon white house did not use all these "evidence" against Kerry when the memories of the event were clear and succinct"....

That's easy. At the time John O'Neill was not working with the Swift Boat Vets. He was actively opposing John Kerry's slanderous anti-war activities. He knew John Kerry was calumnious & self-serving, using his anti-war activities to jump start his political career (in ultra-liberal MA with no worries about Tricky Dick). John O'Neill wanted to correct the record because Kerry had horrifically smeared every Vietnam Vet who served honorably. Kerry's lies placed our POW's at greater risk & that infuriated O'Neill. And O'Neill felt that Kerry & Fonda were two of the main people to turn America against the war.

Back then, it was solely about returning stolen honor & nothing else for O'Neill. For Nixon, it was about the havoc Kerry was causing across America regarding his anti-war activities.

And for the record, when O'Neill & Nixon met, O'Neill took everyone there by surprise when he told them he & his family were Democrats & he had voted for Hubert Humphrey.

Kerry's gaming the system & other service related lies would not become apparent until O'Neill & the Swift Boat Vets for Truth would get together last year (perhaps early this year). O'Neill got them together to once again oppose Kerry for his anti-war activities because they all felt that America needed to know the truth about what Kerry did to smear them. They felt he was "unfit" to be CIC of our armed forces mainly due to Kerry's anti-war activities. And of course, the liberal MSM had never properly informed America about any of this.

It wasn't until they starting sharing personal experiences & reviewing records that they started to see a clear pattern emerge. The reason was that each person only had a small piece of relevant info that, when put together, made it clear Kerry had gamed the system. And it took a thorough reading of Kerry's books, journals & Biographies along with the Swifties sworn testimony & what few records Kerry released (yes he lied about releasing "all" of his records too) to clearly establish many of Kerry's lies & deceptions about his service time. Kerry's own contemporaneous journals & quotes sealed his own fate.

The Swifties simply had no idea back in 1971 about Kerry's gaming the system regarding medals, etc.

O'Neill also had no idea about "Christmas in Cambodia" back in 1971 because John Kerry had yet to invent that lie. Amazingly, the one story John Kerry could have used to really turn America against the war, was also allegedly a seminal event that Kerry claimed it him turned against the war (per his own testimony, biographies, etc.). Kerry didn't mention "Christmas in Cambodia" in 1971, when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. It wasn't part of any of his many anti-war speeches at the time. It was used at least 50 times in public by Kerry, but well after the fact. The earliest I can document Kerry talking about Cambodia was a 1979 interview with the Boston Globe.

Go Figure. Kerry testified about war crimes committed "on a day to day basis with the full awareness of all levels of command". He pressed home how the Gov't was creating "monsters", "murdering" 200,000 Vietnamese every year & misleading America about the Vietnam War. Yet, he somehow forgot to mention the single event that turned him against the war - being ordered by Nixon (before he was President) to make an illegal trip ferrying guns & special forces on his infamous "Christmas in Cambodia" trip, where he engaged the Khmer Rouge (more than a year before they ever entered Cambodia) & received friendly fire from drunk Buddhists celebrating "Christmas" no less.

....Consider the history. In 1973, Kerry was a leader of
the anti-war movement. That same year, the American Left
went nuts when the Nixon administration admitted it had
secretly invaded Cambodia in 1969 and 1970 to roust out
Communist fighters.

It's hard to overstate just how big an issue this was in
1973. Cambodia was officially a neutral country, and it
was the contention of the anti-war movement that any
movement across Cambodia's borders constituted a violation
of international law.

If Kerry is to be believed, then this leader of the anti-
war movement remained silent in 1973 when he could have
spoken out about how he was ordered to violate Cambodian
neutrality as early as 1968. Which is why Kerry is not to
be believed on this matter..... NEW YORK POST

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=20445033

So you can blame Kerry for not having yet inventing his biggest lies back in 1971 when Nixon & John O'Neill wanted to go after this horrific liar for his anti-war activities. Unfortunately, John Kerry waited until they became politically expedient before he invented them. And give Kerry credit for doing a good job of gaming the system so well that it took a thorough investigation of his whole record to expose them some 30 years after the fact.

John O'Neill on Nixon
http://viewfromaheight.blogspot.com/2004/09/john-oneill-on-nixon.html

Kerry's Congressional Record - "Christmas in Cambodia", "seared, seared" in my memory....
http://instapundit.com/images/kerrycambfull.jpg

[lemming]

Zeev,

(Your quote: "why should I believe that what is being presented now as "truth" is nothing but the result of faulty 30 plus year old memories coupled with deep political division resulting in real hatred.")

The mention of the word Auschwitz brings back bad memories coupled with deep political division resulting in real hatred. Auschwitz took place twice as long ago as Vietnam, yet I would never question those memories, neither would I ridicule a Jew's anger over the Holocaust. Nor would hold in contempt those who questioned the logic in Kurt Waldheim's 1992 candidacy for President of Austria, after his involvement in the Nazi's war attrocities in Yugoslavia were widely made known.

Even though Vietnam does carry the gravity of the Holocaust, I do not see a problem in what the Swiftboat Veterans are doing.

If I were serving in Vietnam and someone who was discharged after only 16 weeks duty called me a war criminal before Congress and gave my enemy ammunition to use against me and my buddies in some Vietcong POW rats nest, I would probably be pretty angry, too. Wouldn't you?

I would probably be furious when he decided to run for public office and fuming when he became a Senator. However, when he became a candidate for commander in chief, I think I would draw the line, too.

I agree that the Swiftboat Vets were probably very angry and felt that their best course of action was to tell their opinion of John Kerry to prevent someone who underminded the military from controlling the military.

That being said, do the Swiftboat Veterans hold a candle to the anger expressed by many Democrats (groups and individuals) against President Bush for 2-3 solid years now?

(Your quote: "Whatever differences you may have with Kerry philosophy, you should laud his efforts in the early seventies to shorten the Vietnam war and thus drastically reduce the senseless dying of our own young men and thousands of Vietnamese civilians.")

Many of our soldiers "senselessly" died in Vietnam because it was a war they were not allowed to win. John Kerry was a contributor to our not being allowed to win, and therefore he was a contributor to the "senselessless" of our men's deaths.

Incidentally, do you have any idea how to find out how many civilians die annually in Vietnam today?

-David

P.S. - My guess is that if Kerry does win, we can count on a draft; officers will be resigning and enlisted soldiers will be leaving the ranks in droves. That will be their "protest".

[lemming]

Apology in order (mine)

Zeev (and anyone else who read my previous post),

Ugh! Here is what I posted (emphasis added):


"Even though Vietnam does carry the gravity of the Holocaust, I do not see a problem in what the Swiftboat Veterans are doing."


What I had meant to post was this:


"Even though Vietnam does NOT carry the gravity of the Holocaust, I do not see a problem in what the Swiftboat Veterans are doing."


Vietnam is nothing compared to the savagery inflicted upon the Jews during the Holocaust.

Please forgive my careless and irresponsible typo on this matter.

-David