Replies to post #72801 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[ergo sum]

Here you can start here. Have fun.
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

Do you have a good guide to Kitty Kelly's book?

[zitboy_rev_11_3]

You (can't point) to any of their charges that have been refuted with facts

when he previously brought up the subject, i chimed in and got no follow up, so i doubt you will get any response

http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=4134155

and why would he respond, when there's nothing to respond with..........the only response they have is to smear them, and say it's a conspiracy...........gee, what's new?

[Suppressed Sound Link]

[Chris McConnel]

From the SBV site



1. KERRY'S FIRST PURPLE HEART


—————————————————————————————————————————
1.1 Forearm or not?

[NOW]

Grant Hibbard, today : "He had a little scratch on his forearm"

[THEN]

Grant Hibbard, two weeks after the "little scratch" incident in 1968 that so deeply troubled Hibbard : "Of 16 categories for rating, including professional knowledge, moral courage and loyalty, Mr. Hibbard checked “not observed” in 12. Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of “one of the top few” in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, “above the majority,” in military bearing."

Kerry's medical report from 1969 (which Letson claims to have authored but did not) : "3 DEC 1968 U.S. NAVAL SUPPORT FACILITY CAM RANH BAY RVN FPO Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and appl. Bacitracin. Ret. to duty"


—————————————————————————————————————————
1.2 "Turned down" Purple Heart or not?

[NOW]

Grant Hibbard, today : "I turned down the Purple Heart request"

[THEN]

Grant Hibbard, April 2004 : "I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it. I finally said, 'Ok, if that's what happened ... do whatever you want.' After that I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it. I don't know how"

Grant Hibbard, two weeks after the "little scratch" incident in 1968 that so deeply troubled Hibbard : "Of 16 categories for rating, including professional knowledge, moral courage and loyalty, Mr. Hibbard checked “not observed” in 12. Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of “one of the top few” in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, “above the majority,” in military bearing."


—————————————————————————————————————————
1.3 Kerry "requested" Purple Heart or not?

[NOW]

William Schacte, today : "Kerry requested a Purple Heart"

Grant Hibbard, today : "Hibbard said Kerry came into his office "to apply for a Purple Heart," but that he turned down Kerry's "Purple Heart request."

[THEN]

Grant Hibbard, a few months ago : "But in a conflicting interview this summer, Hibbard said Kerry did not directly ask for the medal but a medical report."


—————————————————————————————————————————
1.4 "Learned" from people "with" Kerry at the time or not?

[NOW]

Larry Thurlow : "I learned that from the people who had been with him [Kerry] at that time, when he reported that he received an injury from hostile fire, when in fact, there was none...The only name that comes to mind now is a guy that is actually a member of our group...Steve Gardner."

[NOW]

Steve Gardner : "Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6."


—————————————————————————————————————————
1.5 Three, or is four, or is it "possibly four" men with Kerry?

[NOW]

John O'Neill : "During his August 12 appearances on Crossfire and on MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews , O'Neill claimed that [in addition to the three men on the boat, including Kerry] another anti-Kerry veteran, William Schachte , served on a boat (a small whaler) with Kerry the night Kerry received the injury that resulted in his first Purple Heart."

[A LITTLE LATER]

John O'Neill : "When pressed on Crossfire by Former Clinton White House special counsel Lanny Davis about the number of men on the whaler, O'Neill could only reply that "[t]here were at least three and possibly four men on the whaler."..."

[SBV WEBSITE AT THAT TIME]

SBV website at that time : "While waiting to receive his own Swift boat command, Kerry volunteered for a nighttime patrol mission commanding a small, foam-filled "skimmer" craft with two enlisted men."

[SBV WEBSITE SOME DAYS LATER]

SBV website some days later, after Media Matters pointed out how Schacte and O'Neill's story contradicted SBV's website : "While waiting to receive his own Swift boat command, Kerry volunteered for a nighttime patrol mission on a small, foam-filled "skimmer" craft under the command of Lt. William Schachte. The two officers were accompanied by an enlisted man who operated the outboard motor."

eRiposte note: Three men, four men, or possibly four men? On top of that some compassionate website editing...


—————————————————————————————————————————
1.6 Scrape or not?

[NOW]

Grant Hibbard, today : "He had a tiny scratch...less than from a rose thorn"

Grant Hibbard, today : "...[Kerry's wound was like a] "scrape from a fingernail"..."

[NOW/THEN]

Louis Letson, today : "What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle. I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm."

eRiposte note: A "tiny scratch" from a "fingernail scrape" that was "sticking superficially" but "penetrated" no more than 3-4 mm! How swift!

Kerry's medical report from 1969 (which Letson claims to have authored but did not) : "3 DEC 1968 U.S. NAVAL SUPPORT FACILITY CAM RANH BAY RVN FPO Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and appl. Bacitracin. Ret. to duty"

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm

[Chris McConnel]

From the SBV site


2. KERRY'S BRONZE STAR

2.1 Enemy fire or not?

[via Kevin Drum, Political Animal ]
[NOW]

Larry Thurlow, today: "...there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."

Van O'Dell, today : "There was no enemy fire from either bank."

[THEN]

Larry Thurlow's [OWN] Bronze Star citation, 1969 - which he accepted without so much as a grunt back then: "...all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."


—————————————————————————————————————————
2.2 Enemy fire required for purple heart or not?

[NOW]

Larry Thurlow - on his own Bronze Star : "..."It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting." Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said."

[THEN]

George Elliott in 1969, on Thurlow's Bronze Star : "All of these actions by LTJG THURLOW took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG Thurlow completely ignored in providing immediate assistance to the boat and crew."

eRiposte note:

Thurlow claims he thought his Bronze Star was for a rescue he attempted even though there was no enemy fire - and felt he deserved it (until this "recent revelation" of enemy fire) . He is critical, at the same time of Kerry having received a Bronze Star for a rescue Kerry did in the supposed absence of enemy fire! So, what is it Mr. Thurlow? Do you deserve a Bronze Star even if there was no enemy fire? Or do you not?
—————————————————————————————————————————
2.3 Kerry wrote report or not?

[NOW]

Roy Hoffmann : "Adm. Roy Hoffmann, who commanded all Swift boats in Vietnam, said he believed that Kerry wrote the March 13 after-action report on the basis of numerical identifiers at the top of the form."

[THEN]

Roy Hoffmann, a little later : "He later acknowledged that the numbers referred to the Swift boat unit, and not to Kerry personally. "It's not cast-iron," he said. "


—————————————————————————————————————————
2.4 Medal simply based on "Kerry's" report or not?

[NOW]

George Elliott : "I did not expect my officers [Kerry] to be submitting inaccurate reports"

[THEN]

George Elliott, a little earlier : "The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and [Adrian] Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts."

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm

[Chris McConnel]

From the SBV site


3. KERRY'S SILVER STAR

3.1 Kerry "simply" shot the guy or not? Heroic or not? Regrets or not? What's the prevailing mood today, Mr. Elliott?

[NOW]

George Elliott, now : "...[Kerry] 'lied about what occurred in Vietnam . . . for example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back."

[A LITTLE LATER]

George Elliott, a little later : ''I still don't think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here." Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ''time pressure" from those involved in the book. ''That's no excuse," Elliott said. ''I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake."

[A DAY OR SO LATER]

George Elliott, a day or two after the previous statement : "...On Friday, a member of that group who was one of Kerry's supervisors in Vietnam, George Elliott, appeared to back off an earlier affidavit in which he suggested Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star. In the affidavit, he said, "I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back."
...
Elliott later issued another affidavit -- witnessed and notarized -- this time saying he was misquoted by the Globe and reaffirming his belief that Kerry has "not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."..."

George Elliott on his revised affidavit/statement : "I do not claim to have personal knowledge as to how Kerry shot the wounded, fleeing Viet Cong.
...
I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand"

[THEN]

George Elliott, not too long ago : "John was one of 50 young officers who performed extremely well," Elliott said in an interview in May. "I wrote his fitness report, and I stand by that."

George Elliott, years ago : "When [Kerry] came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when [Kerry] came back and I heard his debrief, I said, 'John, I don't know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,'" Elliott recalled in an interview.
"But I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that," Elliott said. A Silver Star, which the Navy said is its fifth-highest medal, commends distinctive gallantry in action.
Asked why he had raised the issue of a court-martial, Elliott said he did so "half tongue-in-cheek, because there was never any question I wanted him to realize I didn't want him to leave his boat unattended. That was in context of big-ship Navy — my background. A C.O. [commanding officer] never leaves his ship in battle or anything else. I realize this, first of all, it was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush even though you usually find no more than two or three people there. On the other hand, on an operation some time later, down on the very tip of the peninsula, we had lost one boat and several men in a big operation, and they were hit by a lot more than two or three people."
Elliott stressed that he never questioned Kerry's decision to kill the Viet Cong, and he appeared in Boston at Kerry's side during the 1996 Senate race to back up that aspect of Kerry's action.
...
Indeed, the Silver Star citation makes clear that Kerry's performance on that day was both extraordinary and risky. "With utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets," the citation says, Kerry "again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only 10 feet from the Viet Cong rocket position and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy . . . The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lt. Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission."

George Elliott, 1996 : "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is not something not to be looked down upon but it was an act of courage. And the whole outfit served with honor..."[T]here was no question that it was above and beyond anything that we had seen down there in that case at that time frame...It just so happened that this one was so outstanding that the Silver Star was eventually awarded." [eRiposte note: More here .]
—————————————————————————————————————————
3.2 Medal based simply on "Kerry's" report or not?

[NOW]

SBV, today : "The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal [Silver Star]."

[THEN]

George Elliott and Adrian Lonsdale, today : "But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.
"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."..."

Roy Hoffmann, years ago : "...Hoffmann said...he supported the actions on the day Kerry won the Silver Star. "It took guts, and I admire that," Hoffman said."

[NOW]

Larry Clayton Lee, today : "..."I have no problems with him getting the Silver Star," said Lee...
Rood wrote that Kerry gave the order to turn into the fire and charge the Viet Cong, who were dug in along the river.
"That was the first time it had been done that I know of, and I don't think it was ever done after that," Lee said of the tactic. "I think it was great."..."
—————————————————————————————————————————
3.3 Enemy fire or not?

[NOW]

O'Neill, today : "...[O'Neill] said the congratulatory note from Hoffmann was based on the belief that Kerry was under heavy fire from the Viet Cong. But O'Neill claimed that "didn't happen."..."

[NOW]

Larry Clayton Lee, today : "..."I have no problems with him getting the Silver Star," said Lee...
Rood wrote that Kerry gave the order to turn into the fire and charge the Viet Cong, who were dug in along the river.
"That was the first time it had been done that I know of, and I don't think it was ever done after that," Lee said of the tactic. "I think it was great."..."
—————————————————————————————————————————
3.4 SBV member saw teenager in "loincloth" being shot or not?

[NOW]

O'Neill, today : "The account in our book is very similar to Bill Roods article except that Bill Rood's article makes the Vietcong killed by John Kerry into an adult clothed in pajamas whereas our book describes him as a young Vietcong in a loincloth...Mr. Larry Lee on Bill Rood's boat confirmed our description."

[NOW]

Larry Clayton Lee, today : "...Lee said he didn't see Kerry chase a soldier behind a hooch — a thatched hut — and kill him, but he said he doesn't question the account. "I was too busy firing my gun," Lee said. "I didn't have time to check and see what he was doing."..."

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm

[Chris McConnel]

From the SBV site


4. KERRY AND CAMBODIA

4.1 O'Neill in Cambodia or not? Was 50 miles from Cambodia border or 100 feet from border or at the border or inside Cambodia? Was the border with Cambodia watery or not? Impossible to go into Cambodia by Swift Boat or not? What is it Mr. O'Neill?

What is the swift boat veteran "truth" as of 5 minutes ago and what will it be 5 minutes later?

[NOW]

O'Neill and Corsi, today : "Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War. ... Areas closer than 55 miles from the Cambodian border in the area of the Mekong River were patrolled by PBRs, a small river patrol craft, and not by Swift Boats. Preventing border crossings was considered so important at the time that an LCU (a large, mechanized landing craft) and several PBRs were stationed to ensure that no one could cross the border."

O'Neill, today : "How do I know he's [Kerry] not in Cambodia? I was on the same river, George. I was there two months after him. Our patrol area ran to Sedek, it was 50 miles from Cambodia. There isn't any watery border. The Mekong River's like the Mississippi. There were gunboats stationed right up there to stop people from coming. And our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek. So it was a made-up story."

O'Neill, today : "I was never in Cambodia, and Kerry lied when he said he was in Cambodia."

[NOW AND THEN]

O'Neill, in 1971 :

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.
NIXON: In a swift boat?
O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

O'Neill now :

"In an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday, O'Neill did not dispute what he said to Nixon, but insisted he was never actually in Cambodia.
"I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia," O'Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon."


—————————————————————————————————————————
5. KERRY OTHER

5.1 Knew Kerry "well" or not?

[NOW]

Roy Hoffmann, today : " I knew him well, because I operated very closely with him."

[NOW AND THEN]

Roy Hoffmann, a little earlier : "...Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally. [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel ]"

Roy Hoffmann, a little earlier : " Well, I can tell you that I did not know Kerry personally. I didn't ride the boat with him."
—————————————————————————————————————————
5.2 Swear based on personal knowledge or not?

[NOW]

Alfred French, earlier : " I am able to swear, as I do hereby swear, that all facts and statements contained in this affidavit are true and correct and within my personal knowledge and belief."
Alfred French, earlier : " I served with John Kerry. . . . He is lying about his record."

[A LITTLE LATER]

Alfred French, a little later : " I was not a witness to these events but my friends were."

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm

[Chris McConnel]

From the SBV site


6. KERRY'S LEADERSHIP, CHARACTER OR CAPABILITIES

6.1 Good ("honest") man or not?

Kevin Drum, Political Animal

[NOW]

Roy Hoffmann, today: "John Kerry has not been honest."

[THEN]

Roy Hoffmann, 2003: "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man."

 
        ————————————————————————————————————————— 
 

[NOW]

George Elliot, today: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."

[THEN]

George Elliot, 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage."
...


—————————————————————————————————————————
[NOW]

Grant Hibbard, today: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."

[THEN]

Grant Hibbard's evaluation of Kerry, 1968: "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."


—————————————————————————————————————————
6.2 Lacks the capacity to lead or not?

Other

[NOW]

Adrian Lonsdale, today: "He lacks the capacity to lead."

[THEN]

Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Adrian Lonsdale, 1996 : "As far as I was concerned, the war was won over there in that part for that period. And it was mainly won because of the bravado and the courage of the young officers that ran the boats, the SWIFT boats and the Coast Guard cutters and Senator Kerry was no exception."

Adrian Lonsdale, years ago : "I don't like what he said after the war...But he was a good naval officer."


—————————————————————————————————————————
6.3 "Unfit" to be Commander-in-Chief ? Really? How touching!

[NOW]

Roy Hoffmann, now : "Our thesis is just simply that Kerry is not fit to be the commander in chief of the armed forces of the United States...I was on many combat missions with boats in the same group against the same enemies at the same time, and I know enough about Kerry to feel very confident that he is not qualified."

[THEN]

Roy Hoffmann, years ago : "...Hoffmann said...he supported the actions on the day Kerry won the Silver Star. "It took guts, and I admire that," Hoffman said...."

Roy Hoffmann, years ago : "...Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes..."

George Elliott, 1969 : In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).
[Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively]
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

Larry Thurlow, many years ago : "He was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point."

Grant Hibbard, years ago : "One of the top few in his willingness to seek and accept responsibility."
...[Quoted by Alan Colmes as follows]: Here is what Grant Hubbard [sic], who's now part of your group, here's what he had to say back then about John Kerry. And he signed -- let's put it up on the screen -- a report on Kerry. He said on initiative, one of the top few. Cooperation, one of the top few. Personal behavior, one of the top few...[E]verything he [Hibbard] did observe him [Kerry] on he [Kerry] was superlative.


—————————————————————————————————————————
6.4 Cowardly or not?

[NOW]

Steve Gardner, today :

"...Whenever a firefight started he always pulled up stakes and got the hell out of Dodge...He’s another Bill Clinton and that’s exactly what he is...I don’t care how much John Kerry’s changed after he moved off my boat, his initial patterns of behavior when I met him and served under him was somebody who ran from the enemy, rather than engaged it."

[NOW/THEN]

Larry Thurlow, many years ago : "He was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point."

Larry Clayton Lee, today : "..."I have no problems with him getting the Silver Star," said Lee...
Rood wrote that Kerry gave the order to turn into the fire and charge the Viet Cong, who were dug in along the river.
"That was the first time it had been done that I know of, and I don't think it was ever done after that," Lee said of the tactic. "I think it was great."..."

Roy Hoffmann, years ago : "...Hoffmann said...he supported the actions on the day Kerry won the Silver Star. "It took guts, and I admire that," Hoffman said...."

Roy Hoffmann, years ago : "...Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes..."

George Elliott, 1969 : In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).
[Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively]
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

Roy Hoffmann, today :

"...He was aggressive...He was a 'loose cannon.'..."


http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm

[otraque]

Would you accept a challenge to go in a pit with me and duke it out on this issue until one of us is dead, and the other can say this proves i was right???
That is what is SO NEAT about Vietnam.
It ripped this country apart like The Civil War, and its ever sick bleeding revolting ghost is ripping this country apart now with the emergence of the Iraq War.
Vietnam fought 30 years, 30 years, against the West that had by Western decision divided Vietnam.
And the South propped up artificially by the French and the U.S. could not stop this country from re-uniting
What does that tell you, it tells you the people of Vietnam had Right on their side, they won after 30 years of vicious horrific aggression from Super Powers with massively more fire power and out right diabolical weaponry
I hereby honor the memory of the millions of vietnamese that died in over 30 years of an evil war created by the lunatic aggression from the French and then the U.S.
And to the mighty Pig Kissinger, who called Vietnam a 4th rate power that could be easily beaten; i say what went wrong Henry????
As for the Kampuchea "Killing Fields", we created a mass psychosis of many thousands of illiterate farmers that found their ancient world turn into a a firey hell where they had hundreds of thousands of their people killed from the relentless carpet bombing of our brave flyers.
So this primitive people had a cult figure Pol Pot preach that they were being annihilated by modern civilization, and those of the civilized modern area of Kampuchea were not being killed because they were apart of the evil of modern civilization.
Given that they were dying in large bundles, and having their forest home of millennia turning into a splintered hell with thousands and thousands of cute little blow your legs off mines that our mine dispersal bombs were gifting to them.
Yes this endless bombardment from the sky, sent them into deep shock, they slipped into madness.
It was the murderous /cowardly evil of the Secret Bombing of Cambodia that created this horror.
If it had not happened, this evil secret bombing, they would have remained farmers in their jungle forest, in the timelessness of a primitive society, and would not have given Pol Pot the time of day.

We are a Great Country and our history so immaculate.
i have no country, no nation, no flag; i am my own country, i am not a tribal beast.
But the U.S. is now the biggest strongest tribal beast in the world, it is ALL BULLSHIT.

[BondGekko]

IEDDYI ANOTHER LIE BY YOU, first of all his district was more pro war than anti war and that is why he lost his first election

secondly what you are saying is bunk, our destabilization of Cambodia due to an illegal bombing war brought upon the government of the Khmer Rouge which slaughtered millions of innocent people in one of the world's largest genocide

Because the Khmer Rouge was against communism we sat and did nothing about it, in fact Reagan's secretary of state Schultz actually visited with their leader's.

Kerry was brave in fighting the war and brave in speaking out against the war, if he played a part in ending the war early than he saved lives

we never should have been there to begin with, which is something you obviously don't understand