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chipguy

01/29/08 12:04 PM

#57471 RE: wbmw #57466

The bulk of HPC purchases has evolved into clusters of 2s
nodes, a configuration which is right in the middle of the
x86 SHV server heartland. Expecting IPF based 2s systems
to beat x86 in performance/price with a process lag is IMO
absurd. What will happen when both Xeon and IPF are at 32
nm at nearly the same time? I'm pretty damn sure the IPF
chip will easily beat the best x86 chip in absolute FP/HPC
performance but I am also pretty damn sure that the IPF
chip will be priced 2x to 5x higher than Xeon DP because
of its greater system scalability and RAS features. If Intel's
IPF division wants to take a greater share of the HPC cluster
market it will have to figure out a way to defeature IPF MPUs
for SKUs that are still superior to x86 for 2s HPC nodes and
sell them at comparable prices to Xeon DP but defeatured
enough to keep them out of 4s+ systems and commercial
servers which will be targeted by much higher priced SKUs
which is IPF's raison d'etre.
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savantu

01/29/08 12:43 PM

#57476 RE: wbmw #57466

But isn't this similar to what Savantu is saying? Intel and HP have been steadily decreasing the costs of Itanium through economies of scale and volumes, but over the last few years, GFLOPs has stayed relatively constant, doubling once with the introduction of Montecito. Meanwhile, x86 cores have seen dramatic increases in GFLOPs....

Fast forward to Tukwila, and it's obvious that Intel will improve IPF's value prop considerably. Not only will they double the cores and increase the clock, but they'll add plenty of memory bandwidth to help bandwidth constrained applications, of which there are many. That's fine, but won't Intel still be ahead with Nehalem? That's an interesting point, from which I have never been able to form a definitive opinion. Intel's x86 efforts seem to be on a fast trajectory, and I wonder if IPF will ever vault ahead.


Bingo and a big thank you!

That was the entire point of IPF : offering better performance per transistor.

OoO and serial execution were supposed to hit a complexity and thermal wall ; in-order ( moving the complexity to SW ) and parallelism were the foundations of the entire IPF saga.

IPF was ok until 2004 , from then on it fell hopelessly behind to x86 and even other RISCs.
HPC was a market which showed great promise to IPF , yet it managed to get the boot for not upping the frequency , cores , memory BW , you name it.

Paul constantly bragged how small and simple the IPF core is compared to other RISCs or x86 , yet , what's the point of that simplicity if it doesn't translate into higher clocks and lower power consumption ?

Not only that , but the more complex x86 cores managed to trash it performance wise while being cheaper to manufacture and burning far less power.
This must be the screwup of the century in semis when you consider the original goals and what they actually put up!

Since this is an investor forum I challenge you to an exercise : imagine Intel's finances if it hadn't been for Itanium.
Imagine :
-not spending $5-10B in R&D over the past 15 years for IPF
-not taking thousands of engineers from x86 ,slowing x86 development , delaying 64bit x86 and allowing AMD to have the upper hand
-not using thousands of SW engineers to create compilers , help port/optimize apps to IA64 , but using them to improve the x86 ecosystem.

Can you imagine where Intel would be now ?


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Saturn V

01/29/08 1:12 PM

#57480 RE: wbmw #57466

The Itanium family has used large chips on a mature process to implement its products,while the x86 has used smaller chips on the leading edge process. I wish that the two families had been implemented on the same process node simultaneously to allow a proper comparison. That will be finally be happening at 32nm.

I was always skeptical about the Itanium premise for superiority being the elimination of the extra transistors needed by the Out of Order Execution logic.OOO was scary to most computer designers, but once this beast was tamed the justification for Itanium should have been revisited, since with time those extra transistors ceased to be significant. Now the claim is being made that OOO is a power hog, and once you are power dissipation constrained,Itanium will live upto its potential. We will have to wait to see whether the potential is realized.