Replies to post #732299 on NorthWest Biotherapeutics Inc (NWBO)

[Hopeforthefuture3]

Ex, thanks for putting forth that example. I was wanting to reply and make the same point but your example makes it so all should be able to understand. Had I thought of it I would have used realist instead of bear as I fully endorse the point but I am still thinking there can be success and thus not a bear. The best case from the direct trial was stable disease and that is why I was very interested when Bosch said there was to be a follow-up paper. Had it been written it may have answered the question how long did SD last? Did it result in some/any long term survivors? I found the initial results very intriguing- did it continue?

[The Danish Dude]

Throwing ORR onto the pile of shit.

With this info at our hands, we can thoroughly debunk the fud bear BS about ORR.

https://aacrjournals.org/clincancerres/article/24/16/3845/277824/Cytokines-Produced-by-Dendritic-Cells-Administered
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6093019/
https://clinicaltrials.gov/study/NCT01882946

The references you provided add valuable context to the understanding of DCVax-Direct and its Phase I trial outcomes.

Study Context:

The Phase I trial of DCVax-Direct (NCT01882946) focused on patients with inoperable solid tumors, many of whom had failed multiple prior treatments. This population often has a poor prognosis and limited treatment options, emphasizing the need for alternative therapeutic approaches like DCVax-Direct.

Mechanism and Immune Response:

DCVax-Direct is a dendritic cell-based therapy designed for direct intratumoral injection, aiming to stimulate an immune response against the tumor. The therapy involves injecting activated dendritic cells directly into a tumor, which then present tumor antigens to T-cells, potentially initiating a broad immune response targeting both the treated tumor and other metastases.

The article from Clinical Cancer Research highlights that cytokine production by dendritic cells administered intratumorally correlates with clinical outcomes in patients. This suggests that the quality and quantity of cytokines produced by DCVax-Direct-treated cells may be indicative of a positive immune response, potentially explaining the observed extended survival times in certain patients.
Survival vs. Response Rate:

While objective response rate (ORR) was not the primary endpoint, the data does focus on survival as a key metric. The trial did not report significant tumor shrinkage or traditional ORR (complete or partial responses), which may lead some to conclude a "0% ORR" in conventional terms.

However, the trial's results, particularly in survival outcomes, indicate potential benefits that do not align with a simple ORR measure. The top 20% of patients exceeded two years of survival, and the top 30% achieved an average survival time more than double their expected life expectancy (26.7 months actual vs. 12.3 months expected).

The lack of ORR does not necessarily imply ineffectiveness; rather, it may reflect the mechanism of action for immunotherapies, which often show benefits in overall survival (OS) rather than rapid tumor shrinkage. This aligns with the broader understanding in oncology that immunotherapies can result in delayed but durable responses and improved survival outcomes, even in the absence of measurable ORR.

Potential for Combination Therapy:

An interesting finding from the trial and related studies is the potential for combining DCVax-Direct with checkpoint inhibitors. The study reports that 64% of evaluable patients showed increased PD-L1 expression following treatment, which could enhance the effectiveness of checkpoint inhibitors in future combination therapies.

This suggests that, although DCVax-Direct alone may not lead to substantial tumor shrinkage (ORR), its use could sensitize tumors to other immunotherapies, providing a synergistic effect in combined treatments.

In summary, while the DCVax-Direct Phase I trial did not show traditional ORR, the survival benefits and immune profile enhancements support the potential for DCVax-Direct as part of a therapeutic strategy, especially when considering immune system engagement and possible synergy with other therapies. This trial illustrates an exploratory phase where survival and immune response, rather than ORR, are significant indicators of therapeutic potential.

I gave Gemini the same data and ChatGPTs answer and asked it to research itself and give me "its" opinions

ChatGPTs analysis of DCVax-Direct and the provided references is excellent. It accurately identified the key points and addressed the limitations of focusing solely on Objective Response Rate (ORR). Here are some additional thoughts:

Strengths of the analysis:

Contextualizes the trial:
Highlighting the challenging patient population emphasizes the potential value of DCVax-Direct even without high ORR.

Explains mechanism:
Explaining how DCVax-Direct stimulates an immune response helps understand why ORR might not be the best measure of success.

Differentiates ORR from survival:
Clarifying the focus on survival outcomes provides a more accurate picture of potential benefits.

Highlights potential for combination therapy:
Discussing the possibility of using DCVax-Direct with checkpoint inhibitors adds another dimension to its potential impact.

Additional considerations:

Long-term follow-up:
While the presented data offers promise, longer-term follow-up studies would strengthen the evidence for DCVax-Direct's effectiveness.

Mechanism of action needs further investigation:
Understanding the specific immune response triggered by DCVax-Direct could inform future optimization of the therapy.

Limited data:
The Phase I trial involved a relatively small patient population. Larger, Phase II and Phase III trials are needed to confirm the observed benefits and identify optimal use cases.

Overall, the analysis suggests a balanced perspective on DCVax-Direct. It acknowledges the lack of high ORR but highlights the potential benefits in survival and the possibility of combination therapy.

This approach is more informative than simply stating a "0% ORR."

ChatGPT's response :

Discussing the limitations of ORR for immunotherapies.

Providing potential explanations for the extended survival observed in some patients.

Exploring the potential of combination therapy with checkpoint inhibitors.

By addressing these additional points, this analysis offers a more nuanced and informative perspective.