Replies to post #3609 on Qualcomm Inc (QCOM)

[moonster99]

RTe: The ITU might consider 118 kbps EDGE a 3G technology, I don't know.

The ITU doesnt consider 118 kbps = 3G. All you have to do is have a 'nameplate' speed of over 144 kbps to qualify for 3G

[Jim Mullens]

carranza2- "The ITU might consider 118 kbps EDGE a 3G technology, I don't know. "

FWIW I printed out and saved an old ITU briefing chart in March 2001 that lists both GPRS and EDGE as 2.5G along with CDMA is-95B. It lists as 3G- WCDMA, UWCC-136, and CDMA2000 1X and 3X.

Hard facts such as written and published documentation by the renowned International Telecommunication Union doesn't matter much to the elite "analyst" and journalist communities and others who report otherwise.

I exchanged emails with AO regarding the above and he replied that Qualcomm forced the ITU into submission on listing 1X as 3G. I didn't know Qualcomm had such power.

jim

[Eric]

EDGE: To 3G or not to 3G

c2,

<< So far Nokia is the only manufacturer with an EDGE set on the market--it promised "millions and millions" on the shelves by the end of '02, but screwed up ... >>

I'd be curious to know to whom you attribute that "millions and millions" statement?

I personally think you'll find it exceptionally difficult to substantiate it with a reference, but if you have one, I'd sure like to see it.

I have followed EDGE development rather closely, and follow Nokia as closely as I follow Qualcomm. In any statement made publicly by Nokians that I have heard, or any statement attributed to them that I have seen reported in print, no volumes were attached to any statement that EDGE terminals would both launch and ship in 2002.

<< EDGE also needs lots of new infra in order to reach 3G speeds. >>

Does it?

On EDGE ready GPRS receivers an upgrade requires a software load. All of Cingular's equipment with the exception of some of the equipment in its legacy (former PacBell and BellSouth Mobility) markets falls in this category. >90% of AWS's GSM GPRS gear falls in this category.

Legacy equipment (using non-EDGE ready transceivers) requires insertion of EDGE capable carriers (card for transceiver or a new transceiver). Some older base station cabinetry may need to be replaced or modified in order to house existing as well as new transceivers.

Density of cell coverage does of course affect overall average throughput and QoS across the cell and fallback on an EDGE cell edge is now GPRS CS3 and CS4 in addition to the original GPRS coding schemes CS1 and CS2.

Of course cell density is in play with any technology, because distance from cell site, line of site, v. non-line of site transmission, terrain, cell loading, QoS, and any number of network optimization techniques are in play when a network is configured to deliver a desired average throughput per user, either guaranteed or best effort, with an optimal high carrier-to-interference ratio (C/I) to provide good signal quality and high rates of data throughput.

Cell density is minimized in an EDGE deployment with two EDGE specific protocols, link adaptation (LA) and incremental redundancy (IR), as well as vendor proprietary techniques that increase the cell data coverage area.

<< The Nokia phone--the only one on the horizon--is limited to a max of 118 kbps >>

The Nokia phone (6200U) is only "limited" to 118 kbps if used in the user software selectable symmetrical 2+2 (2 timeslots downlink and 2 uplink) configuration. If used in the optional user selectable 3+1 configuration it is capable of 177 kbps peak downlink - if the user is standing by the base station - just like the Motorola T725 expected to ship Q3 which Motorola touts as being capable of "up to" 177 kbps. Sony Ericsson has not yet announced available configurations of the GC82 EDGE PCMCIA modem, but you can probable expect, 3+3, 4+2, 5+1, etc., but the network will have to support that to take advantage of whatever configurable timeslot configurations are available to the user.

Throughput per timeslot, using MCS-9 theoretically approaches 60 kbps peak (59.2 kbps) and field trialing is bearing that out, but MCS-9 will not be deployed across a cell, hence a relatively conservative statement of throughput even when configured with 3 timeslots downlink.

You may recall that when it was released the Nokia 6500 had a stated peak throughput of 128 kbps. One month later the claimed 128 kbps peak was raised to 384 kbps peak. The difference was that in September the 6500 hadn't been field trialed at 384 kbps on a network capable of supporting that rate. By October it had. The phone didn't change although the software rev in it may have, and probably did.

The AWS EDGE test bed in Dallas which uses a Nortel core and Ericsson RAN with 2 BSC's and 12 850/1900 MHz BST's is testing with the 6200U and reports the following throughputs utilizing 2 timeslots without Link QC (LA or IR) in field trialing on a 500 kb FTP file download:

- 114.2 kbps using MCS9 
 - 105.0 kbps using MCS8 
 -  86.5 kbps using MCS7 
 -  57.2 kbps using MSC6 
 -  43.0 kbps using MCS5

Bearing in mind that in urban environments cell sites are separated by hundreds of yards (or less), not miles, on the AWS test bed using two timeslots, utilizing max MCS8 with LA and IR with 3 test points in a test cluster on a given sector face, AWS has reported this throughput with that same 500 kb FTP file download:

At site            90 kbps 
 ½ mile from site   78 kbps   
 1 mile from site   35 kbps

<< The ITU might consider 118 kbps EDGE a 3G technology, I don't know. >>

The ITU (Working Group 8F) that evolved 3G requirements doesn't test terminals, and they simply leave it up to carriers and vendors to hype their products any way they choose. They have more important matters to concern themselves with.

The ITU approved both TDMA-EDGE (originally submitted by the UWCC) and GSM EDGE (subsequently submitted by 3GPP) as 3G IMT-2000 technologies. As a consequence AWS, Cingular, T-Mobile, Rogers, or whomever, once they have commercially launched EDGE (EGPRS), are as entitled to label their networks as 3G, just as PCS or Verizon currently do with their deployments of 1xRTT Release Zero. Whether they do so or not is their choice. Currently this is Cingular's position paper on the subject:

http://www.cingular.com/about/newsroom_topic_3Gnetworks

This is AWS's:

http://www.attws.com/press/presskits/3g/index.jhtml

Nokia chooses not to label the 6200U as a 3G terminal, Nokia instead focuses on data transmission rates that users can realistically expect using it (with max 3+1 and alternatively 2+2) at this point in time) in an EDGE phase 1 environment, rather than on peak data rates:

The Nokia 6200 supports CSD/GPRS, in addition to EGPRS, which is an implementation of EDGE, the 2.5G data layer upgrade for GSM cellular networks. ... [with] high-speed data transmission via EDGE (up to 40 - 80 kbps) and GPRS.

http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/6200/

http://www.forum.nokia.com/main/1,6566,015_245,00.html

Best,

- Eric -