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Thursday, August 31, 2023 10:37:10 PM
‘He thinks Mike deserves it’: Trump said rioters were right to call for vice-president’s death
Trump aides wanted to be ‘doing something more’ to stop the riot, Cassidy Hutchinson told January 6 committee
Martin Pengelly @MartinPengelly
Wed 29 Jun 2022 05.42 AEST
Last modified on Fri 23 Dec 2022 21.44 AEDT
[...]
Liz Cheney, the committee vice-chair, repeated: “When rioters chanted ‘hang Mike Pence’, the president of the United States, Donald Trump, said that, quote, ‘Mike deserves it’ and that those rioters were not doing anything wrong.”
Hutchinson’s description of Trump’s words was included in a previous hearing, via recorded testimony. The committee had also previously shown that at one point the mob was just 40ft away from Pence.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/28/trump-pence-deserved-it-hanged-capitol-attack
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From burning evidence to smoking gun: See Trump nightmare witness: Melber Report
MSNBC
2,005,800 views Jun 8, 2023 #JackSmith #Trump #WhiteHouse
Top White House aide Mark Meadows testified in Special Counsel Jack Smith’s two Trump probes. It comes as The Guardian reports Trump’s lawyers have been informed he is the target of a criminal investigation in the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case. In this special report, MSNBC Chief Legal Correspondent Ari Melber breaks down why Meadows is so key in the investigation and the damning evidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8N-LUIrUOo
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Remainder of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony (with connecting overlap):
LIZ CHENEY: And do you remember which crimes Mr. Cipollone was concerned with?
"January 6 hearing: Trump aide Cassidy Hutchinson full testimony
[...to end of that post...]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: In the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's hear about some of those concerns that you mentioned earlier in one of your interviews with us. [Begin videotape]"
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: In the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's hear about some of those concerns that you mentioned earlier in one of your interviews with us. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Having a private conversation with Pat late in the afternoon of the 3rd or 4th that Pat was concerned it would look like we were obstructing justice or obstructing the Electoral College count. And I apologize for probably not being so very clear with my legal terms here, but that it would look like we were obstructing what was happening on Capitol Hill.
And he was also worried that it would look like we were inciting a riot or encouraging a riot to erupt on the Capitol — at the Capitol. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: In fact, in the days before January 6th and on January 6th itself, President Trump expressed to multiple White House aides that he wanted to go to the Capitol after his speech. Here's what various White House aides have told the committee about the president's desire to go to the Capitol. [Begin videotape]
UNKNOWN: Did the president tell you this, that he wanted to speak at the Capitol.
MAX MILLER: Correct. Yes.
UNKNOWN: During the meeting in the dining room, did the — the idea of the president proceeding or walking to the Capitol on the 6th after his speech come up?
MAX MILLER: Walking to the Capitol? No.
UNKNOWN: Driving to the Capitol?
MAX MILLER: It came up.
UNKNOWN: Ok. How did it come up and what was discussed?
MAX MILLER: He brought it up. He said I want to go down to the Capitol.
UNKNOWN: What about him marching to the Capitol on the 6th?
NICK LUNA: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Tell us about that.
NICK LUNA: So, it's kind of a general thing. I mean, to get into the specifics of it, I — I was aware of the desire of the president to potentially march to the — or — or accompany the rally attendees to the Capitol.
UNKNOWN: When did you first hear about this idea of the president accompanying rally attendees to the Capitol on the 6th?
NICK LUNA: Well, this was at the 6th. This was during the — and after he finished his remarks. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: When the president said that he would be going to the Capitol during his speech on the Ellipse, the Secret Service scrambled to find a way for him to go. We know this from witnesses and the Secret Service, also from messages among staff on the president's National Security Council. The NSC staff were monitoring the situation in real time, and you can see how the situation evolved in the following chat log that the committee has obtained.
As you can see, NSC staff believed that MOGUL, the president, was "going to the Capitol," and "they are finding the best route now." From these chats, we also know the staff learned of the attack on the Capitol in real time. When President Trump left the Ellipse stage at 1:10, the staff knew that rioters had invaded the inaugural stage and Capitol Police were calling for all available officers to respond.
When Republican leader Kevin McCarthy heard the president say he was going to the Capitol, he called you, Ms. Hutchinson, isn't that right?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's correct.
LIZ CHENEY: And in this text message, you told Tony Ornato, "McCarthy just called me too. And do you guys think you're coming to my office?" Tell us about the call that day with Leader McCarthy during the president's speech on the Ellipse.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I was still in the tent behind the stage. And when you're behind the stage, you can't really hear what's going on in front of you. So, when Mr. McCarthy called me with this information, I answered the call. And he sounded rushed, but also frustrated and angry at me. I — I was confused because I — I didn't know what the president had just said.
He then explained the president just said he's marching to the Capitol. You told me this whole week you aren't coming up here. Why would you lie to me? I said I'm — I'm not lying. I wasn't lying to you, sir. I — we're not going to the Capitol. And he said, well, he just said it on stage, Cassidy. Figure it out.
Don't come up here. I said I'll — I'll — I'll run the traps on this and I'll shoot you a text. I can assure you we're not coming up to the Capitol. We've already made that decision. He pressed a little bit more, believing me but I think frustrated that the president had said that. And we ended the phone conversation after that.
I called Mr. Ornato to reconfirm that we weren't going to the Capitol, and which was also in our text messages. I sent Mr. McCarthy another text telling him the affirmative, that we were not going up to the Capitol, and he didn't respond after that.
LIZ CHENEY: And we understand, Ms. Hutchinson, that the plans for the president to come up to the Capitol had included discussions at some point about what the president would do when he came up to the Capitol on January 6th. Let's look at a clip of one of your interviews discussing that issue with the committee. [Begin videotape]
UNKNOWN: When you were talking about a scheduled movement, did anyone say what the president wanted to do when he got here?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: No, not that I can specifically remember. I remember — I remember hearing a few different ideas discussed with — between Mark and Scott Perry, Mark and Rudy Giuliani. I don't know which conversations were elevated to the president. I don't know what he personally wanted to do when he went up to the Capitol that day.
You know, I — I know that there were discussions about him having another speech outside of the Capitol before going in. I know that there was a conversation about him going into the House chamber at one point. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: As we've all just heard, in the days leading up to January 6th, on the day of the speech, both before and during and after the rally speech, President Trump was pushing his staff to arrange for him to come up here to the Capitol during the electoral vote count. Let's turn now to what happened in the president's vehicle when the Secret Service told him he would not be going to the Capitol after his speech. First, here is the president's motorcade leaving the Ellipse after his speech on January 6th. Ms. Hutchinson, when you returned to the White House in the motorcade after the president's speech, where did you go?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: When I returned to the White House, I walked upstairs towards the chief of staff's office, and I noticed Mr. Ornato lingering outside of the office. Once we had made eye contact, he quickly waved me to go into his office, which was just across the hall from mine. When I went in, he shut the door, and I noticed Bobby Engel, who was the head of Mr. Trump's security detail, sitting in a chair, just looking somewhat discombobulated and a little lost.
I looked at Tony and he had said, did you f'ing hear what happened in the beast? I said, no, Tony, I — I just got back. What happened? Tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got in the beast, he was under the impression from Mr. Meadows that the off the record movement to the Capitol was still possible and likely to happen, but that Bobby had more information.
So, once the president had gotten into the vehicle with Bobby, he thought that they were going up to the Capitol. And when Bobby had relayed to him we're not, we don't have the assets to do it, it's not secure, we're going back to the West Wing, the president had a very strong, a very angry response to that.
Tony described him as being irate. The president said something to the effect of I'm the f'ing president, take me up to the Capitol now, to which Bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the West Wing. The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel.
We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol. Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel. And Mr. — when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles.
LIZ CHENEY: And was Mr. Engel in the room as Mr. Ornato told you this story?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: He was.
LIZ CHENEY: Did Mr. Engel correct or disagree with any part of this story from Mr. Ornato?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Engel did not correct or disagree with any part of the story.
LIZ CHENEY: Did Mr. Engel or Mr. Ornato ever after that tell you that what Mr. Ornato had just said was untrue?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Neither Mr. Ornato nor Mr. Engel told me ever that it was untrue.
LIZ CHENEY: And despite this altercation, this physical altercation during the ride back to the White House, President Trump still demanded to go to the Capitol. Here's what Kayleigh McEnany, the White House press secretary at the time, wrote in her personal notes and told the committee about President Trump's desire to go to the Capitol after returning to the White House. [Begin videotape]
UNKNOWN: When you wrote POUTS wanted to walk to the Capitol, was that based solely on what the president said during his speech or anything that he or anybody else said afterwards?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY: So, to the best of my recollection, I believe when we got back to the White House he said he wanted to physically walk with the marchers. And according to my notes, he then said, you'd be fine with just writing the piece, but — so that's my recollection. He wanted to be a part of the March in some fashion.
UNKNOWN: Alright. And just for the record, the piece refers to the Presidential limousine?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY: Yes. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: President Trump did not go to the Capitol that day. We understand that he blamed Mark Meadows for that. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: So prior to leaving the rally site when he got off the stage and everybody was making the movement back to the motorcade, I had overheard Mr. Meadows say to him then, as I had prior to Mr. Trump taking the stage that morning, that he was still working on getting an off-the-record movement to the Capitol.
So when Mr. Trump took the stage, he was under the impression by Mr. Meadows that it was still possible. So when he got off the stage, I had relayed to Mr. Meadows that I had another conversation with Tony. The movement was still not possible. Mr. Meadows said, Ok. And then as they proceeded to go to the motorcade and Mr. Meadows had reiterated, we're going to work on it, sir.
Talk to Bobby. Bobby has more information. Mark got into his vehicle, to my understanding. Trump got into the [Inaudible]. And after we had all arrived back at the White House later in the day, it had been relayed to me via Mark that the President wasn't happy that Bobby didn't pull it off for him, and that Mark didn't work hard enough to get the movement on the books. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: The physical altercation that Ms. Hutchinson described in the Presidential vehicle was not the first time that the President had become very angry about issues relating to the election. On December 1, 2020, Attorney General Barr said in an interview that the Department of Justice had not found evidence of widespread election fraud sufficient to change the outcome of the election.
Ms. Hutchinson, how did the President react to hearing that news?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Around the time that I understand the AP article went live, I remember hearing noise coming from down the hallway. So I poked my head out of the office. I saw the valet walking towards our office. He had said, get the Chief down to the dining room. The President wants him. So Mark went down to the dining room, came back to the office a few minutes later.
After Mark had returned, I left the office and went down to the dining room and I noticed that the door was propped open and the valet was inside the dining room changing the tablecloth off of the dining room table. He motioned for me to come in and then pointed towards the front of the room near the fireplace mantel and the TV, where I first noticed there was catsup dripping down the wall and there was a shattered porcelain plate on the floor.
The valet had articulated that the President was extremely angry at the Attorney General's AP interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall, which was causing him to have to clean up. So I grabbed a towel and started wiping the catsup off of the wall to help the valet out. And he said something to the effect of, he's really ticked off about this.
I would stay clear of him for right now. He's really, really ticked off about this right now.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, was this the only instance that you are aware of where the President threw dishes?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: It's not.
LIZ CHENEY: And are there other instances in the dining room that you recall where he expressed his anger?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: There were — there were several times throughout my tenure with the Chief of Staff that I was aware of him either throwing dishes or flipping the tablecloth to let all the contents of the table go onto the floor and likely break or go everywhere.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, Attorney General Barr described to the Committee the President's angry reaction when he finally met with President Trump. Let's listen. [Begin videotape]
WILLIAM BARR: And I said, look, I — I know that you're dissatisfied with me and I'm glad to offer my resignation. And he pounded the table very hard and everyone sort of jumped in, and he said, accepted. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Mr. Chairman, I reserve.
BENNIE THOMPSON: The gentlewoman reserves. The Chair requests those in the hearing room to remain seated until the Capitol Police have escorted our witness from the room. Pursuant to the order of the Committee of today, the Chair declares the Committee in recess for a period of approximately 10 minutes. [Recess]
The Committee will be in order. The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Wyoming, Vice Chair Cheney.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before we turn to what Ms. Hutchinson saw and heard in the White House during the violent attack on the Capitol on January 6th, let's discuss certain communications White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows had on January 5th. President Trump's associate, Roger Stone, attended rallies during the afternoon and the evening of January 5th in Washington, DC On January 5th and 6th, Mr. Stone was photographed with multiple members of the Oath Keepers who were allegedly serving as his security detail.
As we now know, multiple members of that organization have been charged with or pled guilty to crimes associated with January 6th. Mr. Stone has invoked his Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination before this committee. General Michael Flynn has also taken the Fifth before this committee. Mr. Stone previously had been convicted of other federal crimes unrelated to January 6th.
General Flynn had pleaded guilty to a felony charge, also predating and unrelated to January 6th. President Trump pardoned General Flynn just weeks after the Presidential election, and in July of 2020, he commuted the sentence Roger Stone was to serve.
The night before January 6th, President Trump instructed his Chief of Staff Mark Meadows to contact both Roger Stone and Michael Flynn regarding what would play out the next day. Ms. Hutchinson, Is it your understanding that President Trump asked Mark Meadows to speak with Roger Stone and General Flynn on January 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's correct. That is my understanding.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, is it your understanding that Mr. Meadows called Mr. Stone on the 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm under the impression that Mr. Meadows did complete both a call to Mr. Stone and General Flynn the evening of the 5th.
LIZ CHENEY: And do you know what they talked about that evening, Ms. Hutchinson?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm not sure.
LIZ CHENEY: Is it your understanding that Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Eastman, and others had set up what has been called, quote, a war room at the Willard Hotel on the night of the 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I was aware of that the night of the 5th.
LIZ CHENEY: And do you know if Mr. Meadows ever intended to go to the Willard Hotel on the night of the 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Meadows had a conversation with me where he wanted me to work with Secret Service on a movement from the White House to the Willard Hotel so he could attend the meeting or meetings with Mr. Giuliani and his associates in the war room.
LIZ CHENEY: And what was your view as to whether or not Mr. Meadows should go to the Willard that night?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I had made it clear to Mr. Meadows that I didn't believe it was a smart idea for him to go to the Willard Hotel that night. I wasn't sure everything that was going on at the Willard Hotel, although I knew enough about what Mr. Giuliani and his associates were pushing during this period. I didn't think that it was something appropriate for the White House Chief of Staff to attend or to consider involvement in, and made that clear to Mr. Meadows.
[INSERT: Donald Trump's real conspiracy: It's much larger than even Fani Willis imagines
Trump's Georgia indictment is impressive in scale. His conspiracy to end democracy is a lot bigger than that
[...]And according to the indictment just filed by Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis, this was all part of an overall conspiracy — a criminal enterprise under racketeering law — led by the Hamberder King. Mark Meadows, Trump's former White House chief of staff, who also participated in the infamous call with Raffensperger on Jan. 2, 2021, has also been charged with that same felony. (It's No. 28 of the 41, if you're keeping score). One suspects that all the guys who were in the "war room" at the Willard Hotel in Washington on Jan. 5 and 6 will eventually face similar charges from Jack Smith.
p - But Trump's conspiracy to falsify the Georgia vote count, as heinous and as blatant as it was, pales in comparison to his ongoing and highly successful effort to train a sizable chunk of the American public to despise their own government, to hate the free press, to dehumanize their political opponents, not to take even the most basic precautions in a public health emergency and to embrace all kinds of dangerous conspiracy theories.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=172609926]
Throughout the afternoon, he mentioned a few more times going up to the Willard Hotel that evening, and then eventually dropped the subject the night of the 5th and said that he would dial in instead.
LIZ CHENEY: So General Flynn has appeared before this committee. And when he appeared before our committee, he took the Fifth. Let's briefly view a clip of General Mike Flynn taking the Fifth Amendment. [Begin videotape] General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified?
UNKNOWN: Can we have a minute?
LIZ CHENEY: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Alright, we're back. Congressman Cheney, could you repeat the question please?
LIZ CHENEY: Yes. General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified?
UNKNOWN: Is that — can I get a clarification? Is that a moral question or are you asking a legal question?
LIZ CHENEY: I'm asking both.
MICHAEL FLYNN: I said — I said the Fifth.
LIZ CHENEY: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified morally?
MICHAEL FLYNN: Take the Fifth.
LIZ CHENEY: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified legally?
MICHAEL FLYNN: Fifth.
LIZ CHENEY: General Flynn, do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the United States of America?
MICHAEL FLYNN: The Fifth. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: That's the — Let's move on now to January 6th and the conduct of Donald Trump and Mark Meadows during the attack on the Capitol. Ms. Hutchinson, I'd like now for us to listen to a description — your description of what transpired in the West Wing during the attack. For context in this clip, you describe the time frame starting at about 2:00 p.m. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: So I remember Mark being alone in his office for quite some time. And, you know, I know we've spoken about Ben Williamson going in at one point, and I don't personally remember Ben going in. I don't doubt that he had gone in. But I remember him being alone in his office for most of the afternoon. Around 2:00 to 2:05 — around 2:00 to 2:05, you know, we were watching the TV and I could see that the rioters were getting closer and closer to the Capitol.
Mark still hadn't popped out of his office or said anything about it. So that's when I went into his office. I saw that he was sitting on his couch on his cell phone, same as the morning where he was just kind of scrolling and typing. I said, hey, are you watching the TV, Chief? Because his TV was small and I — you can see it, but I didn't know if he was really paying attention.
I said, you watching the TV, Chief? He was like, yeah. I said, the rioters are getting really close. Have you talked to the President? And he said, no, he wants to be alone right now; still looking at his phone. So I start to get frustrated because, you know, I sort of felt like I was watching a — this is not a great comparison, but a bad car accident that was about to happen where you can't stop it, but you want to be able to do something.
I just remember — I remember thinking in that moment, Mark needs to snap out of this and I don't know how to snap him out of this, but he needs to care. And I just remember I blurted out and I said, Mark, do you know where Jim's at right now? And he looked up at me at that point and said, Jim? And I said, Mark, Is — he was on the floor a little while ago giving a floor speech.
Did you listen? He said, yeah, it was real good. Did you like it? And I said, yeah. Do you know where he's at right now? He said, no, I haven't heard from him. And I said, you might want to check in with him, Mark. And I remember pointing at the TV and I said, the rioters are getting close. They might get in. And he looked at me and said something to the effect of, Alright, I'll give him a call. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Not long after the rioters broke into the Capitol, you described what happened with White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: No more than a minute, minute and a half later, I see Pat Cipollone barreling down the hallway towards our office; and rush right in, looked at me, said, is Mark in his office? And I said, yes. He just looked at me and started shaking his head and went over — opened Mark's office door, stood there with the door propped open and said something to — Mark is still sitting on his phone.
I remember like glancing and he's still sitting on his phone. And I remember Pat saying to him something to the effect of, the rioters have gotten to the Capitol, Mark. We need to go down and see the President now. And Mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, Pat. And Pat said something to the effect of — and very clearly had said this to Mark — something to the effect of, Mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your f'ing hands.
This is getting out of control. I'm going down there. And at that point, Mark set up from his couch, both of his phones in his hand. He had his glasses on still. He walked out with Pat. He put both of this phones on my desk and said, let me know if Jim calls. And they walked out and went down to the dining room. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: A few minutes later, Representative Jordan called back. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: A couple minutes later, so likely around between 2:15. 2:25 — I know the tweet went out at 2:24. I don't remember if I was there when the tweet went out or if it happened right afterwards, but Jim had called. I answered the phone, said, one second. He knew it was — I guess he knew it was — and I introduced myself, but I — I don't remember if he called my cell phone or if he had called one of Mark's. But I answered the phone and said, one sec, Mark's on the hall.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm going to go hand the phone to him and he said, Ok. So I went down. I asked the valet if Mark was in the dining room. The valet said, yes. I opened the door — The dining room, briefly stepped in to get Mark's attention. I showed him the phone, like flipped the phone his way so he could see it said Jim Jordan. He had stepped to where I was standing there holding the door open, took the phone, talking to Jim with the door still propped open, so I took a few steps back.
So, I probably was two feet from Mark. He was standing in the doorway going into the Oval Office dining room. They had a brief conversation. And in the crossfires — you know, I heard briefly, like, what they were talking about, but in the background I had heard conversations in the Oval Dining Room with the — at that point talking about the hang Mike Pence chants. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: That clip ended, Ms. Hutchinson, with you recalling that you heard the president, Mr. Meadows, and the White House counsel discussing the hang Mike Pence chants, and then you described for us what happened next. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: It wasn't until Mark hung up the phone, handed it back to me. I went back to my desk a couple of minutes later. Him and Pat came back, possibly Eric Herschmann too. I'm pretty sure Eric Herschmann was there, but I'm — I'm confident it was Pat that was there. I remember Pat saying something to the effect of, Mark, we need to do something more.
They're literally calling for the vice president to be f'ing hung. And Mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him, Pat. He thinks Mike deserves it. He doesn't think they're doing anything wrong, to which Pat said something, this is f'ing crazy, we need to be doing something more. Briefly stepped into Mark's office, and when Mark had said something — when Mark had said something to the effect of he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. Knowing what I had heard briefly in the dining room coupled with Pat discussing the hanging Mike Pence chants in the lobby of our office and then Mark's response, I understood "they're" to be the rioters in the Capitol that were chanting for the vice president to be hung. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Let me pause here on this point. As rioters chanted hang Mike Pence, the president of the United States, Donald Trump, said that "Mike deserves it," and that those rioters were not doing anything wrong. This is a sentiment that he has expressed at other times as well. In an interview with ABC News correspondent Jonathan Karl, President Trump was asked about the supporters chanting hang Mike Pence last year.
Instead of condemning them, the former president defended them. [Begin videotape]
JONATHAN KARL: Saying hang Mike Pence.
DONALD TRUMP: Because it's — it's common sense, Jon. It's common sense that you're supposed to protect — how can you — if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress? [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: President Trump's view that the rioters were not doing anything wrong and that "Mike deserved it" helps us to understand why the president did not ask the rioters to leave the Capitol for multiple hours. In fact, he put this tweet out at 2:24 PM. Ms. Hutchinson, do you recall seeing this tweet, in which the president said the vice president did not have the courage to do what needed to be done?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I do.
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson, what was your reaction when you saw this tweet?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: As a staffer that worked to always represent the administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things that he had done for the country, I remember feeling frustrated and disappointed, and really it felt personal. I — I was really sad. As an American, I was disgusted. It was unpatriotic.
It was un-American. We were watching the Capitol building get defaced over a lie, and it was something that was really hard in that moment to digest, knowing what I've been hearing down the hall and the conversations that were happening. Seeing that tweet come up and knowing what was happening on the Hill, and it's something that I — it's still — I still struggle to work through the emotions of that.
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson, we have also spoken to multiple other White House staff about their reaction to Donald Trump's 2:24 tweet condemning Mike Pence for not having the courage to refuse to count electoral votes, an act that would have been illegal. Matthew Pottinger, a former Marine intelligence officer who served in the White House for four years, including — including as deputy national security adviser, was in the vicinity of the Oval Office at various points throughout the day.
When he saw that tweet, he immediately decided to resign his position. Let's watch him describe his reaction to the president's tweet. [Begin videotape]
MATTHEW POTTINGER: One of my staff brought me a printout of a tweet by the president, and the tweet said something to the effect that Mike Pence, the vice president, didn't have the courage to do what he — what should have been done. I — I read that tweet and made a decision at that moment to resign. That's where I knew that I was leaving that day once I read that tweet. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Ultimately, members of the White House staff, Sarah Matthews, Cabinet members Secretary Chao and Secretary DeVos resigned as well. Here is Secretary DeVos's resignation letter. As you can see, in resigning on January 6th, Secretary DeVos said to the president, "There's no mistaking the impact your rhetoric had on the situation, and it is the inflection point for me." Let's also look at Secretary Chao's resignation statement.
When Secretary Chao resigned, she spoke of the January 6th attack and she said, "As I am sure is the case with many of you, this is deeply troubled me in a way I simply cannot set aside." Ms. Hutchinson, in our prior interviews, we've asked you about what the president's advisers were urging him to do during the attack.
You've described roughly three different camps of thought inside the White House that day. Can you tell us about those?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: There was a group of individuals that were strongly urging him to take immediate and swift action. I would classify the White House Counsel's Office, Mr. Herschmann, Ms. Ivanka Trump in that category of really working to get him to take action and pleading with him to take action. There was a more neutral group where advisors were trying to toe the line, knowing that Mr. Trump didn't necessarily want to take immediate action and condemn the riots, but knowing something needed to be done.
And then there was the last group, which was deflect and blame. Let's blame Antifa. These aren't our people. It's my understanding that Mr. Meadows was in the deflect and blame category, but he did end up taking a more neutral route, knowing that there were several advisors in the president's circle urging him to take more action, which I think was reflected in the rhetoric released later that day in the videos.
LIZ CHENEY: You told us that the White House Counsel's Office was in the camp encouraging the president to tell the rioters to stop the attack and to leave the Capitol. Let's listen. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: White House counsel's office wanted there to be a strong statement out to condemn the rioters. I'm confident in that. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Now let's look at just one example of what some senior advisers to the president were urging. Ms. Hutchinson, could you look at the exhibit that we're showing on the screen now? Have you seen this note before?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's a note that I wrote at the direction of the chief of staff on January 6th, likely around 3:00.
LIZ CHENEY: And it's written on a chief of staff note card, but that's your handwriting, Ms. Hutchinson?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's my handwriting.
LIZ CHENEY: And why did you write this note?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: The chief of staff was in a meeting with Eric Hirschman and potentially Mr. Philbin, and they had rushed out of the office fairly quickly. Mark had handed me the note card with one of his pens, and sort of dictating a statement for the president to potentially put out.
LIZ CHENEY: And — no, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's Ok. There are two phrases on there, one illegal and then one without proper authority. The illegal phrase was the one that Mr. Meadows had dictated to me. Mr. Herschmann had chimed in and said also put without legal authority. There should have been a slash between the two phrases. It was an — an or if the president had opted to put one of those statements out. Evidently he didn't. Later that afternoon, Mark came back from the Oval Dining Room and put the palm card on my desk with illegally crossed out, but said we didn't need to take further action on that statement.
LIZ CHENEY: So, to your knowledge, this statement was never issued.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: It was — to my knowledge, it was never issued.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, did you understand that Ivanka Trump wanted her father to send people home?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's my understanding, yes.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's play a clip of you addressing that issue. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I remember her saying at various points, you know, she wants him — she wanted her dad to send them home. She wanted her dad to tell them to go home peacefully, and she wanted to include language that he necessarily wasn't on board with at the time. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: You will hear more about this at our later hearings, but we have evidence of many others imploring Donald Trump and Mark Meadows to take action. Here is some of that evidence, text messages sent to Mark Meadows during the attack. This is a text message at 2:32 from Laura Ingraham, hey, Mark, the president needs to tell people in the Capitol to go home.
In the next message, this is hurting all of us. And then, he's destroying his legacy and playing into every stereotype. We lose all credibility against the BLM/Antifa crowd if things go south. The president's son, Don Jr., also urgently contacted Mark Meadows at 2:53. He wrote, he's got to condemn this shit ASAP. The Capitol Police tweet is not enough.
As you will see, these are just two of the numerous examples of Trump supporters and allies urging the president to tell his supporters to leave, the Capitol. It would not have been hard for the president to simply walk down to the briefing room a few feet down the hall from the Oval Office, as Norah O'Donnell noted during an interview with House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy, where Leader McCarthy said he believed the attack was un-American. [Begin videotape]
NORAH O'DONNELL: I want to quickly bring in Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader. Leader McCarthy, do you condemn this violence?
KEVIN MCCARTHY: I completely condemn the violence in the Capitol. What we're currently watching unfold is un- American. I am — I'm disappointed. I'm sad. This is not what our country should look like. This is not who we are. This is not the First Amendment. This has to stop and this has to stop now.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Leader McCarthy, the president of the United States has a briefing room steps from the Oval Office. It is — the cameras are hot 24/7, as you know. Why hasn't he walked down and said that now?
KEVIN MCCARTHY: I — I conveyed to the president what I think is best to do, and I'm hopeful the president will do it. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Republican House member Mike Gallagher also implored the president to call off the attack. [Begin videotape]
MIKE GALLAGHER: Mr. President, you have got to stop this. You are the only person who can call this off. Call it off. The election is over. Call it off. This is bigger than you. It's bigger than any member of Congress. It is about the United States of America, which is more important than any politician. Call it off. It's over. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Despite the fact that many people close to Donald Trump were urging him to send people home, he did not do so until later, much later. At 4:17 PM, Donald Trump finally told the rioters to go home and that he loved them. Here's a portion of the video President Trump recorded from the White House. [Begin videotape]
DONALD TRUMP: We have to have peace, so go home. We love you. You're very special. You've seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel, but go home and go home in peace. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: But as we will show in even greater detail in future hearings, Donald Trump was reluctant to put this message out and he still could not bring himself to condemn the attack. Ms. Hutchinson has told us that, too. [Begin Videotape]
The one that he put out at 4:17?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm sure you've discussed it. And just to elaborate if I hadn't already, at that point I recall him being reluctant to film the video on the 6th. I was not involved in any of the logistics or the planning for that video. I just remember seeing the video go out and feeling a little shocked after it went out. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: On the evening of January 6th and the day after the President's family and his senior staff and others tried to encourage the President to condemn the violence and commit to the peaceful transition of power. At 3:31 p.m. on January 6th, Sean Hannity of Fox News texted Mark Meadows.
Mr. Hannity said quote, "Can he make a statement. I saw the tweet. Ask people to leave the [Capitol]." Later that evening Mr. Hannity sent another text message to Mark Meadows. This time he shared a link to a tweet. That tweet reported that President Trump's cabinet secretaries were considering invoking the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from office.
As you can see on the screen, the 25th Amendment to the Constitution creates a process for the transition of power if a President is unfit or unable to serve. The 25th Amendment has never been used to remove a President. But the committee has learned that after the attack on the US Capitol this was being discussed by members of President Trump's cabinet as a way of stripping the full power of the presidency from Donald Trump.
President Trump's supporters were worried. In addition to the tweet that he sent Mark Meadows after the attack, Sean Hannity apparently spoke with President Trump and warned him about what could happen. We understand that this text message that Sean Hannity sent to Kayleigh McEnany on January 7th shows what Mr. Hannity said to the President.
First, no more stolen election talk. Second, impeachment and 25th amendment are real. Many people will quit. Ms. Hutchinson, you told us that you were hearing about discussions related to the 25th amendment. Here's part of what you said. [Begin Videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Trump had every chance to have the conversation with Mr. Meadows in case he hadn't heard the discussions amongst cabinet secretaries. And from what I understand, it was more of a — this is what I'm hearing. I want you to be aware of it, but I also think it's worth putting on your radar because you are the Chief of Staff.
You're technically the boss of all the cabinet secretaries. And, you know, if the conversations progressed you should be ready to take action on this. I — I'm concerned for you and your positioning with this. Reach out to me if you have any questions or, like, if I can be helpful with you at all. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Inside the White House the President's advisors, including members of his family, wanted him to deliver a speech to the country. Deputy White House counsel Pat Philbin prepared the first draft of what would be the President's remarks on national healing, delivered via pre-taped video on January 7th. When he arrived at the White House on the 7th, Mr. Philbin believed that more needed to be said.
So he sat down and started writing. He shared the draft with Pat Cipollone, who also believed the President needed to say more. Mr. Cipollone agreed with the content as did Eric Herschmann, who reviewed the draft. The committee has learned that the President did not agree with the substance as drafted and resisted giving a speech at all.
Ms. Hutchinson, do you recall discussions about the President's speech on January 7th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I do.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's listen, Ms. Hutchison, to what you told us about that and about the process of crafting those remarks. [Begin Videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I learned from a conversation with Mark and overhearing between him and White House Counsel and Eric Herschmann as well that Trump didn't necessarily think he needed to do anything more on the 7th than what he had already done on the 6th. When he was convinced to put out a video on the 7th he — I understand that he had a lot of opinions about what the context of that announcement were to entail.
I had original drafts of the speech where, you know, there were — several lines didn't make it in there about prosecuting the rioters or calling them violent. He didn't want that in there. He wanted to put in there that he wanted to par — potentially pardon them. And this is just with the increased emphasis of his mindset at the time which was he didn't think that they did anything wrong.
He — the people who did something wrong that day or the person who did something wrong that day was Mike Pence by not standing with him. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: But the President's advisors urged him to give the speech. [Begin Videotape]
UNKNOWN: Who convinced him to do the video on the 7th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm not sure who convinced him or if it was a group of people that convinced him.
UNKNOWN: Who was in the group that you're aware of?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That I'm aware of, Mark, Ivanka, Jared Kushner, Eric Herschmann, Pat Cipollone, Pat Philbin. Those are the people that I'm aware of.
UNKNOWN: Do you know why that group of people thought it was necessary for him to release a statement?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I believe Kayleigh McEnany as well. From what I understood at the time and from what the reports were coming in there was a large concern of the 25th amendment potentially being invoked and there were concerns about what would happen in the Senate if it was — if the 25th was invoked. So the primary reason that I had heard other than, you know, we did not do enough on the 6th, we need to get a stronger message out there and condemn this is — otherwise this will be your legacy.
The secondary reasons to that was, you know, think about what might happen in the final 15 days of your presidency if we don't do this. There's already talks about invoking the 25th amendment. You need this as cover. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: The President ultimately delivered the remarks. Unlike many of his other speeches, he did not adlib much.
He recited them without significant alteration except one. Even then on January 7th, 2021, the day after the attack on the US Capitol, the President still could not bring himself to say, quote, "But this election is now over." One other point about the speech, Ms. Hutchinson. Did you hear that Mr. Trump at one point wanted to add language about pardoning those who took part in the January 6th riot?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I did hear that, and I understand that Mr. Mead — that Mr. Meadows was encouraging that language as well.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you. And here's what you told us previously about that. [Begin Videotape]
UNKNOWN: You said he was instructed not to include it. Who was instructing him not to include language about the pardon in that January 7th speech?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I understood from White House Counsel's Office coming to our office that morning that they didn't think that it was a good idea to include that in the speech.
UNKNOWN: That being Pat Cipollone?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's correct. And Eric Herschmann. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson, did Rudy Giuliani ever suggest that he was interested in receiving a Presidential pardon related to January 6th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: He did.
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson did White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a Presidential pardon related to January 6th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Meadows did seek that pardon. Yes, ma'am.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you, Ms. Hutchinson. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
BENNIE THOMPSON: I want to thank our witness for joining us today. The members of the select committee may have additional questions for today's witness and we ask that you respond expeditiously in writing to those questions. Without objections, members will be permitted 10 business days to submit statements for the record, including opening remarks and additional questions for the witness.
Without objection the Chair recognizes the Vice Chair for a closing statement.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to begin by thanking Ms. Hutchinson for her testimony today. We are all in her debt. Our nation is preserved by those who abide by their oaths to our Constitution. Our nation is preserved by those who know the fundamental difference between right and wrong. And I want all Americans to know that what Ms. Hutchinson has done today is not easy.
The easy course is to hide from the spotlight, to refuse to come forward, to attempt to downplay or deny what happened. That brings me to a different topic. While our committee has seen many witnesses, including many Republicans, testify fully and forthrightly this has not been true of every witness. And we have received evidence of one particular practice that raises significant concern.
Our committee commonly asks witnesses connected to Mr. Trump's Administration or campaign whether they've been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony. Without identifying any of the individuals involved, let me show you a couple of samples of answers we received to this question.
First, here is how one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witness' testimony. Quote, "What they said to me is as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I'm on the right team. I'm doing the right thing. I'm protecting who I need to protect, you know, I'll continue to stay in good graces in Trump World." "And they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts.
And just keep that in mind as I proceed through my interviews with the committee." Here's another sample in a different context. This is a call received by one of our witnesses. Quote, "A person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow." "He wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. He knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition." I think most Americans know that attempting to influence witnesses to testify untruthfully presents very serious concerns.
We will be discussing these issues as a committee, carefully considering our next steps. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I yield back.
BENNIE THOMPSON: Gentlewoman yields back. Ms. Hutchinson, thank you. Thank you for doing your patriotic duty and helping the American people get a complete understanding of January 6th and its causes. Thank you for your courage in testifying here today. You have the gratitude of this committee and your country. I know it wasn't easy to sit here today and answer these questions.
But after hearing your testimony in all its candor and detail, I want to speak directly to the handful of witnesses who have been outliers in our investigation. The small number who have defied us outright, those whose memories have failed them again and again on the most important details, and to those who fear Donald Trump and his enablers.
Because of this courageous woman and others like her, your attempt to hide the truth from the American people will fail. And to that group of witnesses, if you've heard this testimony today and suddenly you remember things you couldn't previously recall, or there are some details you'd like to clarify, or you discovered some courage you had hidden away somewhere, our doors remain open.
The select committee will reconvene in the weeks ahead as we continue to lay out our findings to the American people. The Chair requests those in the hearing room to remain seated until the Capitol Police have escorted the witness and members from the room. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.
List of Panel Members
PANEL MEMBERS: REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MISS.), CHAIRMAN REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CALIF.)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CALIF.)
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CALIF.)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FLA.) REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD.)
REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA.)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WYO.)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-ILL.)
FORMER TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE AIDE CASSIDY HUTCHINSON
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/28/1108396692/jan-6-committee-hearing-transcript
Trump aides wanted to be ‘doing something more’ to stop the riot, Cassidy Hutchinson told January 6 committee
Martin Pengelly @MartinPengelly
Wed 29 Jun 2022 05.42 AEST
Last modified on Fri 23 Dec 2022 21.44 AEDT
[...]
Liz Cheney, the committee vice-chair, repeated: “When rioters chanted ‘hang Mike Pence’, the president of the United States, Donald Trump, said that, quote, ‘Mike deserves it’ and that those rioters were not doing anything wrong.”
Hutchinson’s description of Trump’s words was included in a previous hearing, via recorded testimony. The committee had also previously shown that at one point the mob was just 40ft away from Pence.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/28/trump-pence-deserved-it-hanged-capitol-attack
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From burning evidence to smoking gun: See Trump nightmare witness: Melber Report
MSNBC
2,005,800 views Jun 8, 2023 #JackSmith #Trump #WhiteHouse
Top White House aide Mark Meadows testified in Special Counsel Jack Smith’s two Trump probes. It comes as The Guardian reports Trump’s lawyers have been informed he is the target of a criminal investigation in the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case. In this special report, MSNBC Chief Legal Correspondent Ari Melber breaks down why Meadows is so key in the investigation and the damning evidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8N-LUIrUOo
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Remainder of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony (with connecting overlap):
LIZ CHENEY: And do you remember which crimes Mr. Cipollone was concerned with?
"January 6 hearing: Trump aide Cassidy Hutchinson full testimony
[...to end of that post...]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: In the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's hear about some of those concerns that you mentioned earlier in one of your interviews with us. [Begin videotape]"
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: In the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's hear about some of those concerns that you mentioned earlier in one of your interviews with us. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Having a private conversation with Pat late in the afternoon of the 3rd or 4th that Pat was concerned it would look like we were obstructing justice or obstructing the Electoral College count. And I apologize for probably not being so very clear with my legal terms here, but that it would look like we were obstructing what was happening on Capitol Hill.
And he was also worried that it would look like we were inciting a riot or encouraging a riot to erupt on the Capitol — at the Capitol. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: In fact, in the days before January 6th and on January 6th itself, President Trump expressed to multiple White House aides that he wanted to go to the Capitol after his speech. Here's what various White House aides have told the committee about the president's desire to go to the Capitol. [Begin videotape]
UNKNOWN: Did the president tell you this, that he wanted to speak at the Capitol.
MAX MILLER: Correct. Yes.
UNKNOWN: During the meeting in the dining room, did the — the idea of the president proceeding or walking to the Capitol on the 6th after his speech come up?
MAX MILLER: Walking to the Capitol? No.
UNKNOWN: Driving to the Capitol?
MAX MILLER: It came up.
UNKNOWN: Ok. How did it come up and what was discussed?
MAX MILLER: He brought it up. He said I want to go down to the Capitol.
UNKNOWN: What about him marching to the Capitol on the 6th?
NICK LUNA: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Tell us about that.
NICK LUNA: So, it's kind of a general thing. I mean, to get into the specifics of it, I — I was aware of the desire of the president to potentially march to the — or — or accompany the rally attendees to the Capitol.
UNKNOWN: When did you first hear about this idea of the president accompanying rally attendees to the Capitol on the 6th?
NICK LUNA: Well, this was at the 6th. This was during the — and after he finished his remarks. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: When the president said that he would be going to the Capitol during his speech on the Ellipse, the Secret Service scrambled to find a way for him to go. We know this from witnesses and the Secret Service, also from messages among staff on the president's National Security Council. The NSC staff were monitoring the situation in real time, and you can see how the situation evolved in the following chat log that the committee has obtained.
As you can see, NSC staff believed that MOGUL, the president, was "going to the Capitol," and "they are finding the best route now." From these chats, we also know the staff learned of the attack on the Capitol in real time. When President Trump left the Ellipse stage at 1:10, the staff knew that rioters had invaded the inaugural stage and Capitol Police were calling for all available officers to respond.
When Republican leader Kevin McCarthy heard the president say he was going to the Capitol, he called you, Ms. Hutchinson, isn't that right?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's correct.
LIZ CHENEY: And in this text message, you told Tony Ornato, "McCarthy just called me too. And do you guys think you're coming to my office?" Tell us about the call that day with Leader McCarthy during the president's speech on the Ellipse.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I was still in the tent behind the stage. And when you're behind the stage, you can't really hear what's going on in front of you. So, when Mr. McCarthy called me with this information, I answered the call. And he sounded rushed, but also frustrated and angry at me. I — I was confused because I — I didn't know what the president had just said.
He then explained the president just said he's marching to the Capitol. You told me this whole week you aren't coming up here. Why would you lie to me? I said I'm — I'm not lying. I wasn't lying to you, sir. I — we're not going to the Capitol. And he said, well, he just said it on stage, Cassidy. Figure it out.
Don't come up here. I said I'll — I'll — I'll run the traps on this and I'll shoot you a text. I can assure you we're not coming up to the Capitol. We've already made that decision. He pressed a little bit more, believing me but I think frustrated that the president had said that. And we ended the phone conversation after that.
I called Mr. Ornato to reconfirm that we weren't going to the Capitol, and which was also in our text messages. I sent Mr. McCarthy another text telling him the affirmative, that we were not going up to the Capitol, and he didn't respond after that.
LIZ CHENEY: And we understand, Ms. Hutchinson, that the plans for the president to come up to the Capitol had included discussions at some point about what the president would do when he came up to the Capitol on January 6th. Let's look at a clip of one of your interviews discussing that issue with the committee. [Begin videotape]
UNKNOWN: When you were talking about a scheduled movement, did anyone say what the president wanted to do when he got here?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: No, not that I can specifically remember. I remember — I remember hearing a few different ideas discussed with — between Mark and Scott Perry, Mark and Rudy Giuliani. I don't know which conversations were elevated to the president. I don't know what he personally wanted to do when he went up to the Capitol that day.
You know, I — I know that there were discussions about him having another speech outside of the Capitol before going in. I know that there was a conversation about him going into the House chamber at one point. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: As we've all just heard, in the days leading up to January 6th, on the day of the speech, both before and during and after the rally speech, President Trump was pushing his staff to arrange for him to come up here to the Capitol during the electoral vote count. Let's turn now to what happened in the president's vehicle when the Secret Service told him he would not be going to the Capitol after his speech. First, here is the president's motorcade leaving the Ellipse after his speech on January 6th. Ms. Hutchinson, when you returned to the White House in the motorcade after the president's speech, where did you go?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: When I returned to the White House, I walked upstairs towards the chief of staff's office, and I noticed Mr. Ornato lingering outside of the office. Once we had made eye contact, he quickly waved me to go into his office, which was just across the hall from mine. When I went in, he shut the door, and I noticed Bobby Engel, who was the head of Mr. Trump's security detail, sitting in a chair, just looking somewhat discombobulated and a little lost.
I looked at Tony and he had said, did you f'ing hear what happened in the beast? I said, no, Tony, I — I just got back. What happened? Tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got in the beast, he was under the impression from Mr. Meadows that the off the record movement to the Capitol was still possible and likely to happen, but that Bobby had more information.
So, once the president had gotten into the vehicle with Bobby, he thought that they were going up to the Capitol. And when Bobby had relayed to him we're not, we don't have the assets to do it, it's not secure, we're going back to the West Wing, the president had a very strong, a very angry response to that.
Tony described him as being irate. The president said something to the effect of I'm the f'ing president, take me up to the Capitol now, to which Bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the West Wing. The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel.
We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol. Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel. And Mr. — when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles.
LIZ CHENEY: And was Mr. Engel in the room as Mr. Ornato told you this story?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: He was.
LIZ CHENEY: Did Mr. Engel correct or disagree with any part of this story from Mr. Ornato?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Engel did not correct or disagree with any part of the story.
LIZ CHENEY: Did Mr. Engel or Mr. Ornato ever after that tell you that what Mr. Ornato had just said was untrue?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Neither Mr. Ornato nor Mr. Engel told me ever that it was untrue.
LIZ CHENEY: And despite this altercation, this physical altercation during the ride back to the White House, President Trump still demanded to go to the Capitol. Here's what Kayleigh McEnany, the White House press secretary at the time, wrote in her personal notes and told the committee about President Trump's desire to go to the Capitol after returning to the White House. [Begin videotape]
UNKNOWN: When you wrote POUTS wanted to walk to the Capitol, was that based solely on what the president said during his speech or anything that he or anybody else said afterwards?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY: So, to the best of my recollection, I believe when we got back to the White House he said he wanted to physically walk with the marchers. And according to my notes, he then said, you'd be fine with just writing the piece, but — so that's my recollection. He wanted to be a part of the March in some fashion.
UNKNOWN: Alright. And just for the record, the piece refers to the Presidential limousine?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY: Yes. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: President Trump did not go to the Capitol that day. We understand that he blamed Mark Meadows for that. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: So prior to leaving the rally site when he got off the stage and everybody was making the movement back to the motorcade, I had overheard Mr. Meadows say to him then, as I had prior to Mr. Trump taking the stage that morning, that he was still working on getting an off-the-record movement to the Capitol.
So when Mr. Trump took the stage, he was under the impression by Mr. Meadows that it was still possible. So when he got off the stage, I had relayed to Mr. Meadows that I had another conversation with Tony. The movement was still not possible. Mr. Meadows said, Ok. And then as they proceeded to go to the motorcade and Mr. Meadows had reiterated, we're going to work on it, sir.
Talk to Bobby. Bobby has more information. Mark got into his vehicle, to my understanding. Trump got into the [Inaudible]. And after we had all arrived back at the White House later in the day, it had been relayed to me via Mark that the President wasn't happy that Bobby didn't pull it off for him, and that Mark didn't work hard enough to get the movement on the books. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: The physical altercation that Ms. Hutchinson described in the Presidential vehicle was not the first time that the President had become very angry about issues relating to the election. On December 1, 2020, Attorney General Barr said in an interview that the Department of Justice had not found evidence of widespread election fraud sufficient to change the outcome of the election.
Ms. Hutchinson, how did the President react to hearing that news?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Around the time that I understand the AP article went live, I remember hearing noise coming from down the hallway. So I poked my head out of the office. I saw the valet walking towards our office. He had said, get the Chief down to the dining room. The President wants him. So Mark went down to the dining room, came back to the office a few minutes later.
After Mark had returned, I left the office and went down to the dining room and I noticed that the door was propped open and the valet was inside the dining room changing the tablecloth off of the dining room table. He motioned for me to come in and then pointed towards the front of the room near the fireplace mantel and the TV, where I first noticed there was catsup dripping down the wall and there was a shattered porcelain plate on the floor.
The valet had articulated that the President was extremely angry at the Attorney General's AP interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall, which was causing him to have to clean up. So I grabbed a towel and started wiping the catsup off of the wall to help the valet out. And he said something to the effect of, he's really ticked off about this.
I would stay clear of him for right now. He's really, really ticked off about this right now.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, was this the only instance that you are aware of where the President threw dishes?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: It's not.
LIZ CHENEY: And are there other instances in the dining room that you recall where he expressed his anger?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: There were — there were several times throughout my tenure with the Chief of Staff that I was aware of him either throwing dishes or flipping the tablecloth to let all the contents of the table go onto the floor and likely break or go everywhere.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, Attorney General Barr described to the Committee the President's angry reaction when he finally met with President Trump. Let's listen. [Begin videotape]
WILLIAM BARR: And I said, look, I — I know that you're dissatisfied with me and I'm glad to offer my resignation. And he pounded the table very hard and everyone sort of jumped in, and he said, accepted. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Mr. Chairman, I reserve.
BENNIE THOMPSON: The gentlewoman reserves. The Chair requests those in the hearing room to remain seated until the Capitol Police have escorted our witness from the room. Pursuant to the order of the Committee of today, the Chair declares the Committee in recess for a period of approximately 10 minutes. [Recess]
The Committee will be in order. The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Wyoming, Vice Chair Cheney.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before we turn to what Ms. Hutchinson saw and heard in the White House during the violent attack on the Capitol on January 6th, let's discuss certain communications White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows had on January 5th. President Trump's associate, Roger Stone, attended rallies during the afternoon and the evening of January 5th in Washington, DC On January 5th and 6th, Mr. Stone was photographed with multiple members of the Oath Keepers who were allegedly serving as his security detail.
As we now know, multiple members of that organization have been charged with or pled guilty to crimes associated with January 6th. Mr. Stone has invoked his Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination before this committee. General Michael Flynn has also taken the Fifth before this committee. Mr. Stone previously had been convicted of other federal crimes unrelated to January 6th.
General Flynn had pleaded guilty to a felony charge, also predating and unrelated to January 6th. President Trump pardoned General Flynn just weeks after the Presidential election, and in July of 2020, he commuted the sentence Roger Stone was to serve.
The night before January 6th, President Trump instructed his Chief of Staff Mark Meadows to contact both Roger Stone and Michael Flynn regarding what would play out the next day. Ms. Hutchinson, Is it your understanding that President Trump asked Mark Meadows to speak with Roger Stone and General Flynn on January 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's correct. That is my understanding.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, is it your understanding that Mr. Meadows called Mr. Stone on the 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm under the impression that Mr. Meadows did complete both a call to Mr. Stone and General Flynn the evening of the 5th.
LIZ CHENEY: And do you know what they talked about that evening, Ms. Hutchinson?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm not sure.
LIZ CHENEY: Is it your understanding that Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Eastman, and others had set up what has been called, quote, a war room at the Willard Hotel on the night of the 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I was aware of that the night of the 5th.
LIZ CHENEY: And do you know if Mr. Meadows ever intended to go to the Willard Hotel on the night of the 5th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Meadows had a conversation with me where he wanted me to work with Secret Service on a movement from the White House to the Willard Hotel so he could attend the meeting or meetings with Mr. Giuliani and his associates in the war room.
LIZ CHENEY: And what was your view as to whether or not Mr. Meadows should go to the Willard that night?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I had made it clear to Mr. Meadows that I didn't believe it was a smart idea for him to go to the Willard Hotel that night. I wasn't sure everything that was going on at the Willard Hotel, although I knew enough about what Mr. Giuliani and his associates were pushing during this period. I didn't think that it was something appropriate for the White House Chief of Staff to attend or to consider involvement in, and made that clear to Mr. Meadows.
[INSERT: Donald Trump's real conspiracy: It's much larger than even Fani Willis imagines
Trump's Georgia indictment is impressive in scale. His conspiracy to end democracy is a lot bigger than that
[...]And according to the indictment just filed by Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis, this was all part of an overall conspiracy — a criminal enterprise under racketeering law — led by the Hamberder King. Mark Meadows, Trump's former White House chief of staff, who also participated in the infamous call with Raffensperger on Jan. 2, 2021, has also been charged with that same felony. (It's No. 28 of the 41, if you're keeping score). One suspects that all the guys who were in the "war room" at the Willard Hotel in Washington on Jan. 5 and 6 will eventually face similar charges from Jack Smith.
p - But Trump's conspiracy to falsify the Georgia vote count, as heinous and as blatant as it was, pales in comparison to his ongoing and highly successful effort to train a sizable chunk of the American public to despise their own government, to hate the free press, to dehumanize their political opponents, not to take even the most basic precautions in a public health emergency and to embrace all kinds of dangerous conspiracy theories.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=172609926]
Throughout the afternoon, he mentioned a few more times going up to the Willard Hotel that evening, and then eventually dropped the subject the night of the 5th and said that he would dial in instead.
LIZ CHENEY: So General Flynn has appeared before this committee. And when he appeared before our committee, he took the Fifth. Let's briefly view a clip of General Mike Flynn taking the Fifth Amendment. [Begin videotape] General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified?
UNKNOWN: Can we have a minute?
LIZ CHENEY: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Alright, we're back. Congressman Cheney, could you repeat the question please?
LIZ CHENEY: Yes. General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified?
UNKNOWN: Is that — can I get a clarification? Is that a moral question or are you asking a legal question?
LIZ CHENEY: I'm asking both.
MICHAEL FLYNN: I said — I said the Fifth.
LIZ CHENEY: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified morally?
MICHAEL FLYNN: Take the Fifth.
LIZ CHENEY: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified legally?
MICHAEL FLYNN: Fifth.
LIZ CHENEY: General Flynn, do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the United States of America?
MICHAEL FLYNN: The Fifth. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: That's the — Let's move on now to January 6th and the conduct of Donald Trump and Mark Meadows during the attack on the Capitol. Ms. Hutchinson, I'd like now for us to listen to a description — your description of what transpired in the West Wing during the attack. For context in this clip, you describe the time frame starting at about 2:00 p.m. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: So I remember Mark being alone in his office for quite some time. And, you know, I know we've spoken about Ben Williamson going in at one point, and I don't personally remember Ben going in. I don't doubt that he had gone in. But I remember him being alone in his office for most of the afternoon. Around 2:00 to 2:05 — around 2:00 to 2:05, you know, we were watching the TV and I could see that the rioters were getting closer and closer to the Capitol.
Mark still hadn't popped out of his office or said anything about it. So that's when I went into his office. I saw that he was sitting on his couch on his cell phone, same as the morning where he was just kind of scrolling and typing. I said, hey, are you watching the TV, Chief? Because his TV was small and I — you can see it, but I didn't know if he was really paying attention.
I said, you watching the TV, Chief? He was like, yeah. I said, the rioters are getting really close. Have you talked to the President? And he said, no, he wants to be alone right now; still looking at his phone. So I start to get frustrated because, you know, I sort of felt like I was watching a — this is not a great comparison, but a bad car accident that was about to happen where you can't stop it, but you want to be able to do something.
I just remember — I remember thinking in that moment, Mark needs to snap out of this and I don't know how to snap him out of this, but he needs to care. And I just remember I blurted out and I said, Mark, do you know where Jim's at right now? And he looked up at me at that point and said, Jim? And I said, Mark, Is — he was on the floor a little while ago giving a floor speech.
Did you listen? He said, yeah, it was real good. Did you like it? And I said, yeah. Do you know where he's at right now? He said, no, I haven't heard from him. And I said, you might want to check in with him, Mark. And I remember pointing at the TV and I said, the rioters are getting close. They might get in. And he looked at me and said something to the effect of, Alright, I'll give him a call. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Not long after the rioters broke into the Capitol, you described what happened with White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: No more than a minute, minute and a half later, I see Pat Cipollone barreling down the hallway towards our office; and rush right in, looked at me, said, is Mark in his office? And I said, yes. He just looked at me and started shaking his head and went over — opened Mark's office door, stood there with the door propped open and said something to — Mark is still sitting on his phone.
I remember like glancing and he's still sitting on his phone. And I remember Pat saying to him something to the effect of, the rioters have gotten to the Capitol, Mark. We need to go down and see the President now. And Mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, Pat. And Pat said something to the effect of — and very clearly had said this to Mark — something to the effect of, Mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your f'ing hands.
This is getting out of control. I'm going down there. And at that point, Mark set up from his couch, both of his phones in his hand. He had his glasses on still. He walked out with Pat. He put both of this phones on my desk and said, let me know if Jim calls. And they walked out and went down to the dining room. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: A few minutes later, Representative Jordan called back. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: A couple minutes later, so likely around between 2:15. 2:25 — I know the tweet went out at 2:24. I don't remember if I was there when the tweet went out or if it happened right afterwards, but Jim had called. I answered the phone, said, one second. He knew it was — I guess he knew it was — and I introduced myself, but I — I don't remember if he called my cell phone or if he had called one of Mark's. But I answered the phone and said, one sec, Mark's on the hall.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm going to go hand the phone to him and he said, Ok. So I went down. I asked the valet if Mark was in the dining room. The valet said, yes. I opened the door — The dining room, briefly stepped in to get Mark's attention. I showed him the phone, like flipped the phone his way so he could see it said Jim Jordan. He had stepped to where I was standing there holding the door open, took the phone, talking to Jim with the door still propped open, so I took a few steps back.
So, I probably was two feet from Mark. He was standing in the doorway going into the Oval Office dining room. They had a brief conversation. And in the crossfires — you know, I heard briefly, like, what they were talking about, but in the background I had heard conversations in the Oval Dining Room with the — at that point talking about the hang Mike Pence chants. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: That clip ended, Ms. Hutchinson, with you recalling that you heard the president, Mr. Meadows, and the White House counsel discussing the hang Mike Pence chants, and then you described for us what happened next. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: It wasn't until Mark hung up the phone, handed it back to me. I went back to my desk a couple of minutes later. Him and Pat came back, possibly Eric Herschmann too. I'm pretty sure Eric Herschmann was there, but I'm — I'm confident it was Pat that was there. I remember Pat saying something to the effect of, Mark, we need to do something more.
They're literally calling for the vice president to be f'ing hung. And Mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him, Pat. He thinks Mike deserves it. He doesn't think they're doing anything wrong, to which Pat said something, this is f'ing crazy, we need to be doing something more. Briefly stepped into Mark's office, and when Mark had said something — when Mark had said something to the effect of he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. Knowing what I had heard briefly in the dining room coupled with Pat discussing the hanging Mike Pence chants in the lobby of our office and then Mark's response, I understood "they're" to be the rioters in the Capitol that were chanting for the vice president to be hung. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Let me pause here on this point. As rioters chanted hang Mike Pence, the president of the United States, Donald Trump, said that "Mike deserves it," and that those rioters were not doing anything wrong. This is a sentiment that he has expressed at other times as well. In an interview with ABC News correspondent Jonathan Karl, President Trump was asked about the supporters chanting hang Mike Pence last year.
Instead of condemning them, the former president defended them. [Begin videotape]
JONATHAN KARL: Saying hang Mike Pence.
DONALD TRUMP: Because it's — it's common sense, Jon. It's common sense that you're supposed to protect — how can you — if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress? [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: President Trump's view that the rioters were not doing anything wrong and that "Mike deserved it" helps us to understand why the president did not ask the rioters to leave the Capitol for multiple hours. In fact, he put this tweet out at 2:24 PM. Ms. Hutchinson, do you recall seeing this tweet, in which the president said the vice president did not have the courage to do what needed to be done?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I do.
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson, what was your reaction when you saw this tweet?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: As a staffer that worked to always represent the administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things that he had done for the country, I remember feeling frustrated and disappointed, and really it felt personal. I — I was really sad. As an American, I was disgusted. It was unpatriotic.
It was un-American. We were watching the Capitol building get defaced over a lie, and it was something that was really hard in that moment to digest, knowing what I've been hearing down the hall and the conversations that were happening. Seeing that tweet come up and knowing what was happening on the Hill, and it's something that I — it's still — I still struggle to work through the emotions of that.
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson, we have also spoken to multiple other White House staff about their reaction to Donald Trump's 2:24 tweet condemning Mike Pence for not having the courage to refuse to count electoral votes, an act that would have been illegal. Matthew Pottinger, a former Marine intelligence officer who served in the White House for four years, including — including as deputy national security adviser, was in the vicinity of the Oval Office at various points throughout the day.
When he saw that tweet, he immediately decided to resign his position. Let's watch him describe his reaction to the president's tweet. [Begin videotape]
MATTHEW POTTINGER: One of my staff brought me a printout of a tweet by the president, and the tweet said something to the effect that Mike Pence, the vice president, didn't have the courage to do what he — what should have been done. I — I read that tweet and made a decision at that moment to resign. That's where I knew that I was leaving that day once I read that tweet. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Ultimately, members of the White House staff, Sarah Matthews, Cabinet members Secretary Chao and Secretary DeVos resigned as well. Here is Secretary DeVos's resignation letter. As you can see, in resigning on January 6th, Secretary DeVos said to the president, "There's no mistaking the impact your rhetoric had on the situation, and it is the inflection point for me." Let's also look at Secretary Chao's resignation statement.
When Secretary Chao resigned, she spoke of the January 6th attack and she said, "As I am sure is the case with many of you, this is deeply troubled me in a way I simply cannot set aside." Ms. Hutchinson, in our prior interviews, we've asked you about what the president's advisers were urging him to do during the attack.
You've described roughly three different camps of thought inside the White House that day. Can you tell us about those?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: There was a group of individuals that were strongly urging him to take immediate and swift action. I would classify the White House Counsel's Office, Mr. Herschmann, Ms. Ivanka Trump in that category of really working to get him to take action and pleading with him to take action. There was a more neutral group where advisors were trying to toe the line, knowing that Mr. Trump didn't necessarily want to take immediate action and condemn the riots, but knowing something needed to be done.
And then there was the last group, which was deflect and blame. Let's blame Antifa. These aren't our people. It's my understanding that Mr. Meadows was in the deflect and blame category, but he did end up taking a more neutral route, knowing that there were several advisors in the president's circle urging him to take more action, which I think was reflected in the rhetoric released later that day in the videos.
LIZ CHENEY: You told us that the White House Counsel's Office was in the camp encouraging the president to tell the rioters to stop the attack and to leave the Capitol. Let's listen. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: White House counsel's office wanted there to be a strong statement out to condemn the rioters. I'm confident in that. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Now let's look at just one example of what some senior advisers to the president were urging. Ms. Hutchinson, could you look at the exhibit that we're showing on the screen now? Have you seen this note before?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's a note that I wrote at the direction of the chief of staff on January 6th, likely around 3:00.
LIZ CHENEY: And it's written on a chief of staff note card, but that's your handwriting, Ms. Hutchinson?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's my handwriting.
LIZ CHENEY: And why did you write this note?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: The chief of staff was in a meeting with Eric Hirschman and potentially Mr. Philbin, and they had rushed out of the office fairly quickly. Mark had handed me the note card with one of his pens, and sort of dictating a statement for the president to potentially put out.
LIZ CHENEY: And — no, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's Ok. There are two phrases on there, one illegal and then one without proper authority. The illegal phrase was the one that Mr. Meadows had dictated to me. Mr. Herschmann had chimed in and said also put without legal authority. There should have been a slash between the two phrases. It was an — an or if the president had opted to put one of those statements out. Evidently he didn't. Later that afternoon, Mark came back from the Oval Dining Room and put the palm card on my desk with illegally crossed out, but said we didn't need to take further action on that statement.
LIZ CHENEY: So, to your knowledge, this statement was never issued.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: It was — to my knowledge, it was never issued.
LIZ CHENEY: And Ms. Hutchinson, did you understand that Ivanka Trump wanted her father to send people home?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's my understanding, yes.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's play a clip of you addressing that issue. [Begin videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I remember her saying at various points, you know, she wants him — she wanted her dad to send them home. She wanted her dad to tell them to go home peacefully, and she wanted to include language that he necessarily wasn't on board with at the time. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: You will hear more about this at our later hearings, but we have evidence of many others imploring Donald Trump and Mark Meadows to take action. Here is some of that evidence, text messages sent to Mark Meadows during the attack. This is a text message at 2:32 from Laura Ingraham, hey, Mark, the president needs to tell people in the Capitol to go home.
In the next message, this is hurting all of us. And then, he's destroying his legacy and playing into every stereotype. We lose all credibility against the BLM/Antifa crowd if things go south. The president's son, Don Jr., also urgently contacted Mark Meadows at 2:53. He wrote, he's got to condemn this shit ASAP. The Capitol Police tweet is not enough.
As you will see, these are just two of the numerous examples of Trump supporters and allies urging the president to tell his supporters to leave, the Capitol. It would not have been hard for the president to simply walk down to the briefing room a few feet down the hall from the Oval Office, as Norah O'Donnell noted during an interview with House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy, where Leader McCarthy said he believed the attack was un-American. [Begin videotape]
NORAH O'DONNELL: I want to quickly bring in Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader. Leader McCarthy, do you condemn this violence?
KEVIN MCCARTHY: I completely condemn the violence in the Capitol. What we're currently watching unfold is un- American. I am — I'm disappointed. I'm sad. This is not what our country should look like. This is not who we are. This is not the First Amendment. This has to stop and this has to stop now.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Leader McCarthy, the president of the United States has a briefing room steps from the Oval Office. It is — the cameras are hot 24/7, as you know. Why hasn't he walked down and said that now?
KEVIN MCCARTHY: I — I conveyed to the president what I think is best to do, and I'm hopeful the president will do it. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Republican House member Mike Gallagher also implored the president to call off the attack. [Begin videotape]
MIKE GALLAGHER: Mr. President, you have got to stop this. You are the only person who can call this off. Call it off. The election is over. Call it off. This is bigger than you. It's bigger than any member of Congress. It is about the United States of America, which is more important than any politician. Call it off. It's over. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Despite the fact that many people close to Donald Trump were urging him to send people home, he did not do so until later, much later. At 4:17 PM, Donald Trump finally told the rioters to go home and that he loved them. Here's a portion of the video President Trump recorded from the White House. [Begin videotape]
DONALD TRUMP: We have to have peace, so go home. We love you. You're very special. You've seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel, but go home and go home in peace. [End videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: But as we will show in even greater detail in future hearings, Donald Trump was reluctant to put this message out and he still could not bring himself to condemn the attack. Ms. Hutchinson has told us that, too. [Begin Videotape]
The one that he put out at 4:17?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm sure you've discussed it. And just to elaborate if I hadn't already, at that point I recall him being reluctant to film the video on the 6th. I was not involved in any of the logistics or the planning for that video. I just remember seeing the video go out and feeling a little shocked after it went out. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: On the evening of January 6th and the day after the President's family and his senior staff and others tried to encourage the President to condemn the violence and commit to the peaceful transition of power. At 3:31 p.m. on January 6th, Sean Hannity of Fox News texted Mark Meadows.
Mr. Hannity said quote, "Can he make a statement. I saw the tweet. Ask people to leave the [Capitol]." Later that evening Mr. Hannity sent another text message to Mark Meadows. This time he shared a link to a tweet. That tweet reported that President Trump's cabinet secretaries were considering invoking the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from office.
As you can see on the screen, the 25th Amendment to the Constitution creates a process for the transition of power if a President is unfit or unable to serve. The 25th Amendment has never been used to remove a President. But the committee has learned that after the attack on the US Capitol this was being discussed by members of President Trump's cabinet as a way of stripping the full power of the presidency from Donald Trump.
President Trump's supporters were worried. In addition to the tweet that he sent Mark Meadows after the attack, Sean Hannity apparently spoke with President Trump and warned him about what could happen. We understand that this text message that Sean Hannity sent to Kayleigh McEnany on January 7th shows what Mr. Hannity said to the President.
First, no more stolen election talk. Second, impeachment and 25th amendment are real. Many people will quit. Ms. Hutchinson, you told us that you were hearing about discussions related to the 25th amendment. Here's part of what you said. [Begin Videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Trump had every chance to have the conversation with Mr. Meadows in case he hadn't heard the discussions amongst cabinet secretaries. And from what I understand, it was more of a — this is what I'm hearing. I want you to be aware of it, but I also think it's worth putting on your radar because you are the Chief of Staff.
You're technically the boss of all the cabinet secretaries. And, you know, if the conversations progressed you should be ready to take action on this. I — I'm concerned for you and your positioning with this. Reach out to me if you have any questions or, like, if I can be helpful with you at all. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Inside the White House the President's advisors, including members of his family, wanted him to deliver a speech to the country. Deputy White House counsel Pat Philbin prepared the first draft of what would be the President's remarks on national healing, delivered via pre-taped video on January 7th. When he arrived at the White House on the 7th, Mr. Philbin believed that more needed to be said.
So he sat down and started writing. He shared the draft with Pat Cipollone, who also believed the President needed to say more. Mr. Cipollone agreed with the content as did Eric Herschmann, who reviewed the draft. The committee has learned that the President did not agree with the substance as drafted and resisted giving a speech at all.
Ms. Hutchinson, do you recall discussions about the President's speech on January 7th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I do.
LIZ CHENEY: Let's listen, Ms. Hutchison, to what you told us about that and about the process of crafting those remarks. [Begin Videotape]
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I learned from a conversation with Mark and overhearing between him and White House Counsel and Eric Herschmann as well that Trump didn't necessarily think he needed to do anything more on the 7th than what he had already done on the 6th. When he was convinced to put out a video on the 7th he — I understand that he had a lot of opinions about what the context of that announcement were to entail.
I had original drafts of the speech where, you know, there were — several lines didn't make it in there about prosecuting the rioters or calling them violent. He didn't want that in there. He wanted to put in there that he wanted to par — potentially pardon them. And this is just with the increased emphasis of his mindset at the time which was he didn't think that they did anything wrong.
He — the people who did something wrong that day or the person who did something wrong that day was Mike Pence by not standing with him. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: But the President's advisors urged him to give the speech. [Begin Videotape]
UNKNOWN: Who convinced him to do the video on the 7th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I'm not sure who convinced him or if it was a group of people that convinced him.
UNKNOWN: Who was in the group that you're aware of?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That I'm aware of, Mark, Ivanka, Jared Kushner, Eric Herschmann, Pat Cipollone, Pat Philbin. Those are the people that I'm aware of.
UNKNOWN: Do you know why that group of people thought it was necessary for him to release a statement?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I believe Kayleigh McEnany as well. From what I understood at the time and from what the reports were coming in there was a large concern of the 25th amendment potentially being invoked and there were concerns about what would happen in the Senate if it was — if the 25th was invoked. So the primary reason that I had heard other than, you know, we did not do enough on the 6th, we need to get a stronger message out there and condemn this is — otherwise this will be your legacy.
The secondary reasons to that was, you know, think about what might happen in the final 15 days of your presidency if we don't do this. There's already talks about invoking the 25th amendment. You need this as cover. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: The President ultimately delivered the remarks. Unlike many of his other speeches, he did not adlib much.
He recited them without significant alteration except one. Even then on January 7th, 2021, the day after the attack on the US Capitol, the President still could not bring himself to say, quote, "But this election is now over." One other point about the speech, Ms. Hutchinson. Did you hear that Mr. Trump at one point wanted to add language about pardoning those who took part in the January 6th riot?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I did hear that, and I understand that Mr. Mead — that Mr. Meadows was encouraging that language as well.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you. And here's what you told us previously about that. [Begin Videotape]
UNKNOWN: You said he was instructed not to include it. Who was instructing him not to include language about the pardon in that January 7th speech?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: I understood from White House Counsel's Office coming to our office that morning that they didn't think that it was a good idea to include that in the speech.
UNKNOWN: That being Pat Cipollone?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: That's correct. And Eric Herschmann. [End Videotape]
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson, did Rudy Giuliani ever suggest that he was interested in receiving a Presidential pardon related to January 6th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: He did.
LIZ CHENEY: Ms. Hutchinson did White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a Presidential pardon related to January 6th?
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON: Mr. Meadows did seek that pardon. Yes, ma'am.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you, Ms. Hutchinson. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
BENNIE THOMPSON: I want to thank our witness for joining us today. The members of the select committee may have additional questions for today's witness and we ask that you respond expeditiously in writing to those questions. Without objections, members will be permitted 10 business days to submit statements for the record, including opening remarks and additional questions for the witness.
Without objection the Chair recognizes the Vice Chair for a closing statement.
LIZ CHENEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to begin by thanking Ms. Hutchinson for her testimony today. We are all in her debt. Our nation is preserved by those who abide by their oaths to our Constitution. Our nation is preserved by those who know the fundamental difference between right and wrong. And I want all Americans to know that what Ms. Hutchinson has done today is not easy.
The easy course is to hide from the spotlight, to refuse to come forward, to attempt to downplay or deny what happened. That brings me to a different topic. While our committee has seen many witnesses, including many Republicans, testify fully and forthrightly this has not been true of every witness. And we have received evidence of one particular practice that raises significant concern.
Our committee commonly asks witnesses connected to Mr. Trump's Administration or campaign whether they've been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony. Without identifying any of the individuals involved, let me show you a couple of samples of answers we received to this question.
First, here is how one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witness' testimony. Quote, "What they said to me is as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I'm on the right team. I'm doing the right thing. I'm protecting who I need to protect, you know, I'll continue to stay in good graces in Trump World." "And they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts.
And just keep that in mind as I proceed through my interviews with the committee." Here's another sample in a different context. This is a call received by one of our witnesses. Quote, "A person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow." "He wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. He knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition." I think most Americans know that attempting to influence witnesses to testify untruthfully presents very serious concerns.
We will be discussing these issues as a committee, carefully considering our next steps. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I yield back.
BENNIE THOMPSON: Gentlewoman yields back. Ms. Hutchinson, thank you. Thank you for doing your patriotic duty and helping the American people get a complete understanding of January 6th and its causes. Thank you for your courage in testifying here today. You have the gratitude of this committee and your country. I know it wasn't easy to sit here today and answer these questions.
But after hearing your testimony in all its candor and detail, I want to speak directly to the handful of witnesses who have been outliers in our investigation. The small number who have defied us outright, those whose memories have failed them again and again on the most important details, and to those who fear Donald Trump and his enablers.
Because of this courageous woman and others like her, your attempt to hide the truth from the American people will fail. And to that group of witnesses, if you've heard this testimony today and suddenly you remember things you couldn't previously recall, or there are some details you'd like to clarify, or you discovered some courage you had hidden away somewhere, our doors remain open.
The select committee will reconvene in the weeks ahead as we continue to lay out our findings to the American people. The Chair requests those in the hearing room to remain seated until the Capitol Police have escorted the witness and members from the room. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.
List of Panel Members
PANEL MEMBERS: REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MISS.), CHAIRMAN REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CALIF.)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CALIF.)
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CALIF.)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FLA.) REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD.)
REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA.)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WYO.)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-ILL.)
FORMER TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE AIDE CASSIDY HUTCHINSON
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/28/1108396692/jan-6-committee-hearing-transcript
It was Plato who said, “He, O men, is the wisest, who like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing”
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