Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Another way to accomplish the same thing, without the option risk is to buy QID (UltraShort QQQ ProShares). They trade as a stock and offer a good hedge for the downside. I bought a few shares this morning as protection against a sell-off in the next month or so. This is a very nice tool to use within an IRA, where you are not allowed to short or use options.
This may not be what you need, but it's free:
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4587957
Sad story with a happy ending.
Vancouver, Canada (AP) -A seven year old boy was at the center of a
Vancouver courtroom drama yesterday when he challenged a court ruling
over who should have custody of him. The boy has a history of being
beaten by his parents and the judge initially awarded custody to his
aunt, in keeping with the child custody law and regulations requiring
that family unity be maintained to the degree possible. The boy
surprised the court when he proclaimed that his aunt beat him more than
his parents and he adamantly refused to live with her.
When the judge suggested that he live with his grandparents, the boy
cried out that they also beat him. After considering the remainder of
the immediate family and learning that domestic violence was apparently
a way of life among them, the judge took the unprecedented step of
allowing the boy to propose who should have custody of him.
After two recesses to check legal references and confer with child
welfare officials, the judge granted temporary custody to the Vancouver
Canucks, whom the boy firmly believes are not capable of beating anyone.
'Tis a pink, after all. But no, I don't understand either.
Looks like all of 120, but I believe those went in premarket.
3.83 x 3.85
Anyone have any insight as to why SFXC is moving?
It sounds like you are having problems with your video card; try swapping that out.
OT: This might help you decide...
http://www.give.org/news/katrina.asp
Jay
I could not say. I bought my laptop about two years ago and have not spent time researching them lately. Perhaps others here could tell you if this brand is OK. When I was shopping for mine, I ran comparisons with other machines. Prices were relatively static compared to what I see today. If you look around enough, there are bargains to be had. I think it is important to find out what kind of support is offered by the retailer and the manufacturer. Laptops are more susceptible to breakdowns than desktop machines (in my experience). Repairs can be expensive. Mine came with a one year guarantee, which I needed.
Hope this helps a little.
Jay
Check this site frequently. They find deals on laptops (Dell) about once a week. Act fast if it is what you want. The deals never last long.
http://www.slickdeals.net/
Jay
SFTV
Another view
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=7150302
Check out the 6 month chart on ALMI. Quite similar.
Yes, finally got the fs shares in my FIDO account yesterday, but they are listed by the CUSIP number with the description "GLUV CORP COM NEW". Let the trading begin!
First day on the job? No problem! Learn the software. We've cleared you to trade no more than $250 million. Trade one dime more than that and you're outta here!
You nailed that one. Sold some in IRA at .195. Where do you see the re-trace?
Now riding some very free shares. Hated to do it, but felt obliged to sell a bunch at .16. Thanks much for this one. Makes up for a lot of mistakes (mine--not yours ).
Jay
Tandem Updates Financial Structure and Drilling Operations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BusinessWire
09:00 a.m. 06/23/2005
MIDLAND, Texas, Jun 23, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- As previously announced, Tandem Energy Holdings Inc. (TDYH) (the "Company") purchased the stock of Tandem Energy Corporation and the assets of Shamrock Energy Corporation for approximately $46 million. Partial funding was provided by Guaranty Bank for $23 million together with $2 million cash from the Company. Notes for $21 million were issued to certain principals of Tandem Energy Corporation (TEC) and Shamrock Energy Corporation for the balance due. These notes, due September 1, 2005, allowed the Company additional time to pursue a suitable facility whereby the notes could be paid.
The Company is pleased to announce that a permanent solution to the subordinated portion of the financing has been offered and accepted by management. This will complete the transaction between the Company and TEC/Shamrock. The note holders for TEC and Shamrock have agreed in principle to extend the term of their existing notes to 48 months. Consequently, the notes will become the subordinated debt facility bearing interest at prime. The final terms of these notes, once formalized, are expected to be more favorable to the Company than the terms available under a typical subordinated debt facility. The Company expects to save over $2 million annually in interest expense alone; money that can be used to reduce existing bank debt or to fund additional drilling operations. Todd Yocham, the president of Tandem Energy Holdings states, "This is excellent news for the Company and its shareholders. The savings generated will be significant, and the funding provided by Guaranty Bank and the new long-term notes will finalize the purchases we made earlier in the year. Now we can focus on our primary business, which is to exploit and develop our existing properties and to evaluate further acquisitions where they make strategic sense."
The Company has also announced an update of its current drilling operations in Kansas. The Company has drilled its first two Coal Bed Methane gas wells in Montgomery County, Kansas. The two wells, the Edds South "27" #1 and the Allee "27" #1, were drilled to a depth of approximately 1,500 feet, wherein both wells penetrated a number of potentially productive coal seams. Based on logs, the Company has set 4 1/2" production casing, and completion operations for both wells have begun. The Company believes these wells should be capable of producing in commercial quantities and expects them to be connected to a sales line within the next month.
Forward-Looking Statements:
Statements about the company's future expectations, including future revenues and earnings, and all other statements in this press release other than historical facts are "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act 1934, and as the term is defined in the Private Litigation Reform Act of 1995. The Company's actual results could differ materially from expected results. The Company undertakes no obligation to update forward-looking statements to reflect subsequently occurring events or circumstances. Should events occur which materially affect any comments made within this press release, the Company will appropriately inform the public.
Tandem Energy Holdings Inc.
200 N. Loraine, Suite 500
Midland, Texas 79701
432-686-7136
Contact: Mickey Cunningham
Tandem Energy Holdings Inc., Midland Mickey Cunningham, 432-686-7136
Copyright Business Wire 2005
A useful tool to access articles on sites that require registration:
http://www.bugmenot.com/
It works for the site you posted. (Thanks for finding that.)
http://www.answers.com/topic/tanker
While there are tankers that cannot go through the Suez (due to their draft) I'm not sure this is true of any container vessel. By its nature, container cargo would be lighter than tanker cargo, so I believe there are not any container vessels restricted from the Suez.
Zeev, do you have an opinion on oil? Are we in "double top" area or is the current up trend likely to continue?
Jim, I got a similar "non-commitment" from Fidelity. They told me there is no time-line for the shares showing up.
Well, Ken, you are the only one who comes here with credentials. You say you are a broker and Ihub Matt vouched for you. That should give you credibility. Everyone else that posts is simply and alias and must earn respect by the quality of their research and insight. I have been on these boards for quite some time, though I seldom post, and I have listened to of many individuals who are participating in this current event. They have earned their chops. They are less likely to succumb to “cult think” than most, especially since many of them have been on opposite sides for some time.
If you have rational points, present them and let the chips fall as they may. If you write something intelligible, people may go after your argument instead of you. Your disseminating is tedious.
Ken, you do your company a disservice. I cannot imagine doing business with you. I have not heard a straight answer concerning any of your broad-brush statements yet. You come over here and post some scenario and give no reasoning. You have not been right yet. It is really hard for me to fathom that you are truly a broker.
Do you really have clients?
If you really have a warning, spend some time and show us your reasoning. Right now, it looks like BS to me.
Jay
I'm kind of slow, Ken. Could you play out that scenario in a way I can understand? Most of your previous explainations have gone right by me.
...Truckers, Mad Hatters, and ships out at sea...
Thanks.
Freetrade is no more, I believe. I will do more research after this plays out. Commissions are reasonable for pennies (at Fido) and such, as long as you are not trading above some set dollar amount. They go up rapidly at that point. I really hate to think what it will be for 300M @ say .0002. Too much, for sure.
Mary, before Tuesday of last week, I didn't really trade pinks or pennies. This is new to me. If you can recommend a good brokerage for this kind of trading, I'd be glad to check it out. If this pans out, it is by far the best <cough> investment I've ever made.
Jay
No Sh....
For a train trip, particularly if it is long, a plastic bag of goldfish is the appropriate gift.
<Sometimes mean people will crack an egg on your car's hood in the summer.>
I believe those "mean people" are called hoodlums.
(Oh that's horrible...I'm so sorry...)
I wonder if I could double my portfolio that way...naw, the brokerage won't let you divide by zero.
BIIB
You might want to get rid of those shares quickly in the morning. More trouble is brewing:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8209-1520623,00.html
WSJ reports that China is set to begin exporting steel as its own demand slows and its production capacity increases.
<And I'm not sure the author of the first piece is right to suggest that while there is lots of suspicion about Sosa being juiced, there is none about Beltre.>
I'm with you on that. Lately, the question is who is not "juiced." As Zeev would say, "we will know in the fullness of time."
If your not a basketball fan (I'm not), the local teams have been a big zero up here in the northwest. I was more than surprised to see the M's actually acquire a quality player or two. It gives us something to look forward to next season. What do you think, can Hargrove do something with this roster?
<Is Edgar Martinez sticking around in a role with the Ms?>
I'm sure Edgar can take most any role he chooses, but I've not heard anything.
Regards,
Jay
Like your baseball commentary. Here is what is being written about Beltre in Seattle:
Beltre has drawn comparisons to Sosa
By Bob Finnigan
Seattle Times staff reporter
Mariners
Did the Mariners yesterday sign the next Sammy Sosa?
Don Welke, who has a better eye and idea than most, sees that as a possibility.
Welke, one of baseball's most respected scouts, worked for the Los Angeles Dodgers the past five years, a period in which Adrian Beltre developed the talent that he brought to Seattle this week. He is the second-youngest free agent in history, only 3 months older than Alex Rodriguez when he left the Mariners after the 2000 season.
Hearing that Beltre had passed his physical in the morning and signed a contract that will pay him $64 million for the next five years, Welke assured Seattle that the monster numbers the third baseman attained last year were not a one-time phenomenon.
"He just matured," said Welke of Beltre's .334 average, 48 home runs and 121 runs batted in. "Adrian was always a premier prospect, and last year he just put it all together.
"In a lot of ways, you can relate him to Sammy Sosa. Both of them were skinny little kids out of the Dominican when they signed, both had long swings early and chased a lot of bad pitches, then learned better technique, to cut down on the swing, to be patient."
The comparison includes their physiques. While Sosa's powerful 220 pounds on a 6-foot frame has been alleged to be the result of steroids, no one has such suspicions of Beltre's 5-11, 220 body.
Beyond builds, there is more than passing similarity in what could be considered breakthrough years.
For Sosa, who went on to hit 574 homers and drive in 1,530 runs in a 15-year career, that came in 1993, his fourth season. He batted .261, but powered up to 33 homers and 93 RBI.
For Beltre, the breakthrough came last year, his sixth in the big leagues. Significantly, it was the first he played as a father, with wife Sandra having given birth to daughter Cassandra, who charmed the media with baby talk during yesterday's introductory news conference.
"I changed my hitting some, I learned to use my legs and hands at last, to keep still at the plate," said Beltre, who came across solid and sincere and happy to be in Seattle. "I was more patient. I think starting our family, being a father, helped me as a hitter. It has taught me patience. With kids, you have to be patient, and I just took that with me to the plate more."
Juxtaposed against the image of gentleness is the other quality that makes ballplayers into major-leaguers and into stars — toughness.
For that, Welke and general manager Bill Bavasi, who was the Dodgers' farm director before coming to Seattle, spoke of the spring when Beltre played ball wearing a colostomy bag after suffering a ruptured appendix.
"That is how tough this kid is," Bavasi said. "Everyone in camp was in awe of what he was trying to do."
Said Welke, "That was something. No one I know had ever heard of anyone doing that, but that tells you a lot about his toughness and desire."
In January 2001, when he was home in the Dominican Republic, Beltre felt a pain in his right side and went to a hospital. He was told he had eaten something that didn't agree with him and sent home. He returned to the hospital the next day and was rushed into surgery. His appendix had ruptured.
"They were worried about peritonitis," Beltre recalled. "A few days later I was still feeling bad, and they found it was infected, not healing, but leaking. I was still sick when the Dodgers flew me out to L.A. for examinations."
By that time he had lost 20 pounds, down to 205. He did not follow up what had seemed a breakthrough year of .290, 20 homers and 85 RBI in 2000.
"They told me it would heal on its own or I could have surgery," he said. "The surgery would have taken longer for me to play again, so I wore the colostomy bag and worked out."
For more than a week, Beltre took grounders and tried to hit, his bag taped to his right side.
"It was tough, but that's how much I wanted to play," he said. "The guys all thought it was nasty and I was crazy and it was true, but it was worth it if I could play sooner."
He couldn't. He went back into the hospital and had 15 inches of his small intestine removed. Able to eat no solid food for two months, his weight fell to 190.
He came back in May, and hit only .265 with 13 homers in 126 at-bats. Worse, his development was stalled.
"I was impatient. I didn't want to take the time to let it heal," Beltre said. "I think I learned something there, too."
Not much older, but lots wiser, Beltre regrouped and jumped to 21 homers, then 23, the next two years and to 75 RBI, then 80. Then his production exploded this year.
Now he needs another number to move into Mariners blues. His usual No. 29 is worn by Bret Boone, and his second- and third-favorite numbers are taken as well.
"I'll find something," he said. "I'll make it my new lucky number. But really, I feel lucky already. It was tough to leave the organization I grew up with, but I wanted to be where Edgar Martinez had played, the best right-handed hitter I ever saw, and I know how hard Seattle worked to get me here and I am thrilled."
No one is more thrilled than Seattle officials, who see Beltre as a fixture at third, just as they hope they made Richie Sexson a fixture at first two days before. The defense, not to mention the offense, will be measurably improved by these two, each among the top major-leaguers at their positions.
"When I heard Richie Sexson, a 40-homer guy, was coming here, it made me want to come, too," Beltre said. "It will be a good lineup, a good team, a team that will win soon. ... That is why I am here, to help my team win."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2002123520_mari18.html
And here is another interesting column in today's paper:
Off the Wall: This never would have happened under Gillick
By DEREK ZUMSTEG
SPECIAL TO THE POST-INTELLIGENCER
EDITOR'S NOTE: "Off the Wall" is a new weekly column, written exclusively for seattlepi.com, by Derek Zumsteg, a local writer, blogger and keen observer of the Mariners and baseball in general.
Adrian Beltre and Richie Sexson agreed to deals with the Mariners last week for more than $100 million over the next five years. This is how great teams are built -- with stars and youngsters -- and the Mariners are finally going after both. They targeted young, elite talents they thought would help the team get back to respectability in 2005 and beyond.
This never would have happened in the Pat Gillick years. As Mariners general manager from 2000 to 2003, Gillick spent good money on older players of average ability who could be counted on to produce at their established level. If they blocked prospects from the team's farm system, well, that was considered an acceptable consequence. We saw what happened under this philosophy -- an entire infield of players past their primes, unable to drive the ball for power and slower with the glove with each passing game.
The Mariners' belief in a no-stars philosophy was a product of the 2001 season. Alex Rodriguez, Randy Johnson and Ken Griffey Jr. all had left, and still the team won 116 games. But that team had stars. Bret Boone had a season that would have fit in with the best of Joe Morgan's Hall of Fame years. Mike Cameron hit 25 home runs and played stellar defense. Ichiro was Rookie of the Year and the American League MVP. Edgar Martinez had another standout hitting year. And the pitching … Moyer and Garcia both had amazing years. Each of those guys would have been the best player on most teams in baseball that year. To say that the 2001 Mariners were a no-star team misses the point -- they were almost an all-star team.
Teams must have such elite players to succeed, players who are the best or nearly the best at their position. If a team fills a couple of key positions with players like that, it can support them in a number of ways. It can take gambles on players coming off down years or prospects coming up from the farm system. Or it can fill those positions with stopgaps to retain the flexibility to upgrade later if the team finds itself in contention.
But if you stock your team with an infield of highly paid veterans, you've got no place to break in your prospects. You're forced to trade them or pound them into being outfielders or pitchers.
Great, sustainable teams are built with some variation of the stars-and-filler strategy. The Red Sox won in 2004 with a set of established, well-paid stars supported with a cast of who-dat players plucked from scrap heaps and the lunch entrée section of the free-agent menu. The dominant Yankees teams featured mercenaries placed around a core of home-grown stars in Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada. The great Braves teams cycled in new, young talent from their farm system and supplemented it with wise investments in quality free agents, and made run after run at the title. Cleveland rebuilt from scratch, signing future star talents to long-term deals early and then, when the team started to compete, finding the short-term hires to help out.
Great teams have more than one high-paid player. The teams on which one player consumes an inordinate amount of the payroll are almost entirely teams that are being torn down, such as the first post-championship Marlins team when Gary Sheffield was still on the roster.
Take any of the best players from the championship Red Sox. Manny Ramirez, if still on the Indians payroll, would account for more than a quarter of it. The Indians still would have lost games like crazy because their only good hitter this year would have been Manny Ramirez. As a team adds good players as the Red Sox did, total payroll rises, making their good contracts a relatively smaller part of the whole.
But it requires a team to make the right choice when it puts down that kind of money. Baseball is littered with the carcasses of awful contracts. Current Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, while in Anaheim, signed Mo Vaughn to one of the worst deals in modern baseball history, which the Angels eventually dumped on the Mets. The lessons from the disasters of free agency are clear:
- The younger the player, the better;
- The older the player, the shorter the contract should be;
- The more athletically built the player, the better;
- Premium positions make the most difference
The first two are obvious. Players, as a group, peak when they're about 27 years of age. Some peak earlier, some later, but on average, 27 is the magic number. Good players can stay close to that level of performance, but decline is inevitable.
Research has confirmed the intuitive belief that fast, powerful players age best. A player such as Carlos Beltran, who hits for a high average and drives the ball well, matures to add power and walks and can still be effective as he loses bat speed. A player such as Mo Vaughn, who has what people call "older-player skills" -- the walks, the home runs -- ages much less gracefully, and sometimes drops off the face of the sport in one glorious collapse of a season.
It probably didn't help Vaughn's knees that he weighed in at three bills and change, either.
This is why Adrian Beltre was an amazing bargain, possibly a stunning coup for the Mariners, while Richie Sexson -- well, we'll get to that.
Adrian Beltre will be 26 next season. He plays a difficult defensive position well. He was runner-up in National League MVP voting in a stadium so tough on hitters that it's comparable to Safeco Field. It's true that this was a standout season, and that people wondered if he had any future in baseball at all just the year before. But here's the thing -- in 2001, Beltre had an emergency appendectomy that nearly killed him. He lost weight and strength, and had to undergo further surgical procedures. His 2002 was a lost season, and 2003 wasn't much better. Is it fair to think an elite athlete can take two years to get back to form after an experience like that? I think so. His minor-league statistical lines are outstanding, especially for a player so young. Then, entering his 20s, Beltre showed in 1999 and 2000 that he was a tremendous player, heralded widely as a future superstar. After his setback, it merely took until 2004 before we saw that player again.
But the two injury years scared teams off. The Mariners and Dodgers were the only serious suitors, and the M's got him for a song. This is a tremendous risk -- if Beltre ends up a .260 hitter with 15 home runs and plays a good defensive third base, it will be a bad deal for the Mariners. But the reward is so potentially high that Beltre is the bargain of this off-season so far.
Think of it this way: the Mariners bought a lottery ticket for $1. There's a chance they'll get 50 cents back on it, but at least an equally good chance they're going to get $3, $5, and make a sweet profit. These are the gambles the team should be taking. This off-season has been filled with teams paying risky players such as Pedro Martinez as if they'll be as healthy and good as they could possibly be for their whole contracts. And that's just wasting money.
Which brings us to Richie Sexson. In 2003, he was one of the best players in baseball, hitting for power, controlling the strike zone and playing superior defense at first. He didn't do that last year. He tore up his shoulder swinging twice and missed almost the whole year. Labrum injuries end careers and frequently dog athletes. Sure, he went through a gauntlet of medical examinations and has been proclaimed healthy, but we're not going to really know how well he'll hit, if at all, until he starts swinging for real. And that shoulder's going to be uninsurable. At the same time, he'll be 30 next year, and doesn't hit for a high average. He may decline a little over the first few years of this contract, but even if he's healthy, the Mariners are going to be paying him an immense amount of money for a guy who, outside of that one season (at age 28!) has only been a pretty good hitter.
Frankly, we'd have been better off with Carlos Beltran for more money. But it's hard to complain right now -- even if I may disagree with the Mariners' choice of Sexson, it's clear that the team has embraced the concept of paying top dollar for top talent. As a result, this is going to be a far more competitive and interesting team to watch.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/204905_offwall22.html
You might find this interesting. I copied it from another thread earlier this month (sorry, I don't have the link):
"Travelzoo was created in the spring of 1998 by a young fellow named Ralph Bartel, who had earned a doctorate in journalism and the media from a university in Germany and had been working as a management assistant at the Grunner und Jahr publishing house.
It was at that point that he hit upon an idea for an internet-based travel business that in retrospect looks both obvious and brilliant: start a Web site containing nothing but advertisements for the one thing every traveler wants to know — namely, what's the cheapest flight (or car rental, or hotel room, or package tour, or you name it) to anywhere.
Travelzoo began operations as a private company, based in the Bahamas, then moved to California and registered as a public company with the Securities and Exchange Commission, at which point it began trading, sporadically on the OTC Bulletin Board.
Meanwhile, with the bulk of the stock in the hands of Bartel, the company extended an intriguing and attention-getting offer to the public: anyone who wanted to register as a visitior to the Travelzoo Web site could receive, free of charge, shares in the company.
This led to the issuance of roughly 5.2 million such shares, reducing Bartel's stake accordingly. But this was followed in 2002 by the merger of the company into a new, Delaware0incorporated entity. And since fine print in the original offering of free stock to the public required recipients to certify that they 18 years of age and were U.S. or Canadian residents — something that few recipients bothered to do — Bartel had the right to cancel their shares after two years had passed.
By the spring of this year, Travelzoo had moved to New York and begun to gain traction as a real business. Subscribers to the website had nearly doubled from 2002 to 6.1 million, while revenues — nearly all of which was coming from travel industry advertisers promoting their deals — had likewise nearly doubled, to just under $18 million, putting $2 million on the bottom line as profit.
In reaction, the stock began to move from less than $5 per share at the start of the year to $10 by the start of spring.
THINKING perhaps that it was rising too fast, short-sellers began to circle. And when they did Bartel sprang his trap, announcing that of the roughly 19 million shares outstanding, more than four million were being cancelled because the recipients had never bothered to certify their ages and countries of residence.
This automatically reduced the public float by 80%, lifting Bartel's control back to more than 87%, while causing suddenly anxious short-sellers to begin chasing the stock that still remained public in order to close out their positions, which of course simply caused the stock's rise to accelerate.
It was the start of a classic short squeeze, and it is only now beginning to unwind as one short-seller after the next gets carried out, feet-first, reducing demand for the shares accordingly[b/],.
There were no laws broken in any of this. No trickily-worded press releases were sent out by anyone. The only thing that happened was that a group of clever professionals got over-confident in what they were up to, and began shorting a stock without ever bothering to read the fine print that had been attached to it.
But this is the penny stock market, where even the pros can get hosed — and all on the up-and-up. So imagine the chances an investor enjoys when he's up against opponents, unlike young Herr Bartel, who are unburdened with scruples of any sort. "
Maybe you'd like this one better:
"If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth
TASR
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/191249_tasershots17.html
Police chief, NAACP's Mack face Taser zap
Volunteers hope shocking test brings better understanding
By HECTOR CASTRO
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
It started with civil rights activist Carl Mack challenging Seattle police on their growing use of Tasers, and police officials defending the electric stun device.
It has come to this: Mack, president of the Seattle chapter of the NAACP, and police Chief Gil Kerlikowske each will be shot with 50,000 volts of electricity at 10 a.m. today at police headquarters.
"There are people on my board who looked at me like, 'You're crazy,' " said Mack. "But this is part of serving (as president). I need to know."
Kerlikowske said volunteering seemed a natural reaction when Mack asked recently to experience a Taser shot.
"I said, 'Well, I've never actually experienced it, but if you're willing to experience it, then maybe I should do this also,' " he said. "Of course, immediately thinking that (Deputy) Chief Harry Bailey or (Assistant) Chief Nick Metz would jump in and say, 'Oh no, chief, we'll do it.' Instead, neither one of them did."
Two of the department's training officers will be the trigger men. They haven't decided who shoots the chief.
"Tom Burns and I are going to do rock, paper, scissors," Officer Chris Myers joked, referring to another training officer. "It would be the first time I tased my own chief."
While Kerlikowske and Mack have taken some teasing for what will prove to be a painful experience, the reasons for today's demonstration are serious for them both.
Nationally, critics believe Tasers are sometimes abused by police and may have played a role in some deaths, though none in Seattle. But police and makers of the device defend it, saying it is safe and does not cause any permanent damage.
By stepping in front of the Taser himself, Kerlikowske hopes that one result of the demonstration will be proof of his faith in the devices. Mack said he's not worried that a Taser shot will permanently harm him.
His real concern, he said, is the potential for abuse.
"All we're asking for is fairness," Mack said.
This year, he said, his office has received about half a dozen complaints. The Police Department's Office of Professional Accountability has received four. At least two claims for damages have been filed with the city because of Tasers.
Department statistics show that African Americans make up a disproportionate number of those shot with Tasers. A summary report of all incidents of Taser use between 2001 and 2003 shows that 45 percent of the subjects were African American, though they make up just 8 percent of the city's population, according to the 2000 U.S. Census.
For these reasons, Mack began meeting with police leaders several weeks ago to voice his concerns.
"At the time, I didn't know anything about the Tasers," he said.
He wanted to learn about the policies governing Taser use by Seattle police but also about the technology.
It made sense, he said, to volunteer to be shot with a Taser so he could understand those who came to him with complaints.
"I just needed to know what it felt like, so when somebody comes into the offices of the NAACP, I'm a little bit closer to them," Mack said.
Kerlikowske said it made sense to experience the Taser because he is accountable for their use.
"It probably is important for me to understand (them), from not just the technical perspective from watching the demonstrations, but from experiencing it," he said.
Kerlikowske's willingness made a strong impression on Mack, who has been critical of law enforcement in the past on issues of police complaints and officer-involved shootings.
"He's trying to meet us halfway," Mack said. "Now I know he and I are going to both bring a little bit better understanding than we did before this. I just really appreciated that."
Some Seattle police officers began carrying Tasers about four years ago. Their use was prompted in part by some high-profile police shootings in the 1990s, particularly the 1999 death of David Walker, a mentally ill man who was armed with a knife.
More than 200 officers now carry the M-26 Taser, produced by Taser International. Most officers with Tasers keep the devices in a low-slung holster attached to their thigh.
The Taser fires two needle-like probes, each on 21-foot copper wires that transmit 50,000 volts of electricity, delivering a painful, disabling shock.
It can also be used without probes as a close-contact stun gun.
Mack and Kerlikowske won't be shot with the probes. Officers instead will attach alligator clips to them, then deliver the electric shock.
To most police officers, Tasers are a valuable tool that have saved officers from injury and, in some cases, allowed them to arrest people that they otherwise might have shot.
In 2003, Seattle police officers were not involved in any shootings, and Kerlikowske has given some of the credit to the Tasers.
But because there have been complaints as well, Mack and others have focused on how to make sure the devices are used appropriately by police.
"I do not have a problem with lawful law enforcement," Mack said. "But I will forever have a problem with unlawful law enforcement."
One reason to make the demonstration public, he said, is to get the word out that there are policies governing how Tasers are used.
"There is an accounting aspect to the use of these Tasers," Mack said.
Kerlikowske said he hopes today will give him two things: an understanding of how it feels for someone to be shot with a Taser and a closer relationship with the community.
"I don't want people to think of it, though, that it's some stunt or that it's some public relations spin," he said.
To Mack, today will be anything but a stunt. He already feels an improved relationship with at least one police officer.
"When Chief Kerlikowske agreed to it, right there it made my relationship with him even stronger, it made my respect for him even greater," he said.
TASER COMPLAINTS
Among the controversial incidents involving Taser use in Seattle are:
# February 2002 -- Police shoot and kill Shawn Maxwell, who was armed with a sword, after a Taser is ineffective. Police say the clothes he wore prevented the probes from contacting his skin.
# March 2003 -- Officers arresting an unruly bar patron on Mardi Gras used a Taser on him several times, prompting him to file an excessive force complaint. Police contend the multiple Taser shootings were needed because the man continued to resist arrest. A citizen review board asks that the department review its policies.
# July 2003 -- Officers shoot a teenager with a Taser several times after a traffic stop, resulting in a claim against the city by the teen's family.