"Now I am become death . . ."
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Um, it might be an impediment if the EC backs out assuming that $1.9 billion in assets (attributable to the $5.4 billion in now restricted and otherwise unrestricted NOL's), goes out the window.
But who am I to argue.
This is not my area of expertise, and I DO know for a FACT, that it is yours.
So you are most likely correct on this issue. I just tossed that out there for those that might care about those crazy little footnotes in a DS. Who reads them, any way? Hell, who reads the ENTIRE DS?!
Oddly enough, the best outcome for DIME, Class 12 status, is accounted for in the current plan construct, and therefore is not an impediment or a possible impediment to confirmation.
Oddly enough, even though you are most certainly correct in that funds are to be escrowed in the event that Dime Ltw's are in fact Class 12 (and not Class 18, 21 or any other Class under the new and improved POR 7), there could be a little chink in this armor regarding Mediation as putting DIMEQ behind the proverbial 8-Ball.
Check out the provisions relating to the NOL's as contemplated under the Plan (see Disclosure Statement ("DS"), §VIII passim), limitations on accumulation of stock, "old and cold," etc., and you will notice that if Dime Ltw's were found to be Class 21, this could upset the apple cart and A LOT of unrestricted NOL's go buh-bye!
I could be very worng about this, as I gave POR 7 only a cursory reading (as it applied to DIMEQ), after reading your post, but the provision(s) of the Disclosure Statement ("DS") to POR 7, as they relate to DIMEQ and §382 of the Internal Revenue Code ("IRC"). (see §VIII(A)(2)(a)(ii), pp. 212-213 of the DS and pp. 224-225 on the pdf), kinda caught my attention.
If Dime isn't settled prior to the Effective Date, and if Dime Ltw's are found to be Class 21, and therefore entitled to receive many more shares than contemplated by the Plan as currently written, the the $5.4 Billion Dollars of unrestricted NOL's may vanish, go up in smoke, and then Newco is stuck with a $6 million dollar annual cap on the amount of NOL's it may use to offset income tax.
It would seem to me that THIS ALONE, should be incentive enough to pay Steinberg all $337 million (as "walk-away" money), so that he can leave them alone and quit kicking their asse.s senseless on an almost daily basis, but who am I to question Rosen?
So, while on an initial reading it would seem that Mediation would not be favorable to Dime, given the Escrowed Account, the bigger problem that some may not have considered is that if DIMEQ were to receive a large number of common shares in Newco after the Effective Date, unrestricted NOL's (to the tune of $5.4 billion dollars) go "poof," and then you have the government extremely happy to tax Newco on its first $5.4 billion or so in profits, as they otherwise only be able to claim $6 million dollars of write-offs per year, capped at 20 years.
Yikes!
At a tax rate of 35%, you're talking around $1.89 billion dollars. Ironically, right about the same amount that JPMC paid Judas to rob this bank. Do the attorneys (Rosen AND the EC not see the danger in screwing with Steinberg)? A $337 million payout beats a loss of $5.4 billion dollars in unrestricted NOL's any day of the week.
Disclaimer:
These are my thoughts, given a very cursory reading of the DS to POR 7.
I am NOT a bankruptcy attorney, and there are others here that have much greater knowledge/experience regarding the bankruptcy laws, tax laws, and specifically, restrictions to otherwise unrestricted NOL's, pursuant to §382 of the IRC, so I would respectfully defer to them. And yes, I am also NOT a tax lawyer, and my interpretation and reading of the DS should not be construed as tax and/or legal advice.
I could be way off on this. Please let me know if I am.
YMMV
Edit: I forgot to mention that if Steinberg wins, the Debtors are on the hook to the Plaintiffs for Legal Fees for undertaking to represent the entire class of Dime Ltw holders as a class action. IIRC, this was per Strochak's suggestion, as a way to avoid having the U.S. Trustee create an Official Committee for the Ltw's.
Ps: in my most humble opinion, I would venture that the Debtors would be well-served to negotiate in good-faith, unlike the last go around, where Art was open to mediation and Rosen was adamently opposed to it. And where, not so surprisingly, talks ended in May of this year after the Mediator said that no resolution was possible at that time.
And I'm not talking 10% haircut or even a 5% haircut. Check out IRC §382 and see just how bad it would be for DIMEQ to receive stock AFTER the Effective Date.
I just put in a sell order for 50 share at $23.45, anyone interested??
Not really, but you might get a few bites if you drop the price down a little, to say, $22.70 (at the moment).
You're only talking about $37.50 difference, give or take.
If you need the $1,100 pretty badly, $22.70 can get it for ya.
Best of luck.
Still speculating on mediation. I think the best solution is to give ltw the Anchor litigation. Create a note or instrument (not a warrant) that conveys 85% of Anchor to ltw holders. In this way WMI and Co could part ways and do whatever with the eviscerated estate that JPM stole from WAMU.
The only problem with that scenario is that WMI can no longer give away to us that which it has already given away to JPMC via a §363 sale (to "cleanse away" and and all liabilities associated with the Anchor Goodwill Litigation, such as the pesky little Dime Ltw's), and such give-away to JPMC has already been blessed by JMW, as Fair & Reasonable."
So unless if you can tell JPMC that it would be really nice if they could just kinda, sorta, really nicely (with a smile on our face), "give us our Anchor back? Pretty please with sugar on top, give us our F'ing asset back . . . please," you're gonna have a pretty tough time dividing up Anchor amongst the Ltw's (as much as I'd like that to happen).
So, good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out.
We win!
Here's the regarding Judge Loren Smith's Final Order regarding Meritor distribution(s):
PSFS shareholder funds to be released
Only $7.6 million will be set aside for Roth (in the event that he decides to appeal AND is successful). It was originally reported that $8.6 million would be set aside for this clown. And once he loses (or his time to appeal is over), and there is a final judgment against Roth, those funds will go to EXISTING Meritor shareholders.
Additionally, word around the campfire is that the bulk of the distribution of the net judgment (after legal fees and other expenses), will go to DTC for sidtribution to holders that hold their MSVP shares at their brokerages in "street name."
It is estimated that around 93% of all MSVP shares are held in street name. If it is known who owned any certificated shares, and those shares are not tendered, that money will be escheated to the state of their last known address.
To the extent that records may have been lost, and where no certificates are tendered for payment (and where those is no record of an owner or his last known address), it is presumed that those funds would ultimately also be distributed to the known (remaining) shareholders, whether in street name, or in certificated form.
Thank you Mr. Slattery and Mr.Buchanan!
If Judge Walrath had already ruled a Class 18 or 21 for the LTWs I would think that the Debtors and Creditors would be jumping up and down in joy instead of going into a Mediation to resolve the Class Action.
Their "jumping and 'joying'" might be a little premature, for if Judge Walrath were to somehow buy the Class 18 nonsense, an appeal by Steinberg is almost an absolute certainty.
And then there are MORE delays, MORE fees and MORE interest accruing each month, MORE grinding away at whatever value is left in the Estate, etc.
I suspect that WMI has a greater sense of urgency in seeing to it that WMI and Dime kiss and make up, and perhaps ask for a small haircut from the $337 million (in order for Rosen, et al. to save face), Class 12 this thing, and get everything all nice and wrapped up for Leap Day 2012.
Only then, will everybody be "jumping for joy" (and maybe throwing in a Leap or 2).
But whereas Steinberg seemed very open and agreeable to Mediation the last time, and Rosen said "we don't want to Mediate, it's not gonna work" (or words to that effect), I think that the tables are turned and Rosen might be having to eat a little bit of crow.
In the battle between Steinberg v Rosen, Steinberg is clearly ahead on points. No knock-out yet, but looks like Rosen will be saying "No Mas," in the not too distant future.
Just my 2 cents.
All right, StinkyJ, you're right, you got me . . . Art was knocked out in the 1st round, Mike Tyson style, back when Tyson had it going on.
Art is out-gunned and has no idea what is happening here . . . litigation skills are a little lacking.
Tongue firmly in cheek.
:-?
Ttyl,
d.
At this point in time, there is nothing to indicate that JMW does not have the judicial and intellectual integreity to decide the Dime Ltw Adversary Case independent of any garbage that these Scorpions put out a couple of days ago.
To the contrary, judges live for being analytical, for deciding a case on the merits, and not on the convenience of neatly wrapping up a case for a Scorpion like BR, for if that were the case, we would have been dead in the water more than 2 Confirmation Hearings ago.
Think back to the September 2011 hearings; think back to the November 23rd Closing Arguments. Steinberg ran circles around these clowns, leaving them punch-drunk.
Go back and listen to Strochak try to st-st-st-stutter his way around his convoluted and disjointed arguments. Try to remember what Robt. Johnson's 7 points were. I'll bet you can't. These 2 clowns sounded like they couldn't tell their assh.oles from their elbows on a bet.
But Steinberg, well, how the hell can you sound more credible than Art? How can you argue the case with more integrity than this man? Who can tell the story, the facts, the history of the Dime Ltw's in a manner that is better than Steinberg did?
You can't.
And the fact remains that the Dime Adversary Proceedings were separated, and are independent of any Pipe Dreams that BR and WG&M can come up with.
If anything, WG&M has now acknowledged that the Dimes have a floor, that they are entitled to something, that they will not be wiped out.
And the 4 different scenarios contemplated under POR 7 are really no different than what was already implicit before they conspired to hide their cabal with the Insider Trading Settlement Note Holders.
Move along, son, nothing to see.
What we have is a Debtor that deparately wants to wrap this fuster cluck ASAP, and a Plaintiff that has the option to appeal any adverse decision to District Court. All roads lead to a maximum of $337 million that was ring-fenced, or a "reasonable" settlement (as WMI should have offered a long, long time ago, given the facts of this theft, and given the tenacity and the ferociousness of Steinberg & Company).
I don't think that the Debtors (and their co-conspirators), are too keen on going another 15 rounds of assw.hooping against Steinberg, nor begging to have their asse.s handed to them on a platter.
My money is STILL on this one and I will gladly buy up any dirt-cheap Ltw's from people that are spooked by the handiwork of these Criminal Scorpions.
Gotta go with Jared on this one.
What we're getting right now (from POR 7), is a lot of Mental Mas.turbation (but not much more), from none other than Rosenturd. The thing that amazes me is that people are shocked by the antics of this assc.lown.
Think of the fable of the Scorpion and the Frog . . .
Scorpion asks Frog to to carry it across the river. Frog is reluctant, knowing that the Scorpion, being a Scorpion, will sting Frog to death.
Scorpion convinces Frog that it would not be in Scorpion's interest to sting Frog, for they would both surely die, with Frog being poisoned, and Scorpion drowning in the River.
Sounding like a fairly reasonable explantion/proposition, Frog agrees to carry Scorpion across the river. Midway, Scorpion stings Frog.
Frog is shocked, wondering why Scorpion would have done such a thing. And Scorpion, being the Scorpion that it is, tells Frog that "I stung you, because I am a Scorpion, and it is in my nature."
It is in Rosen's nature to be a d.ick, and his job it to "F" us royally. He just cannot help it, no matter how much his side (JPMC, SHnIT's, WMI, A&M, et al.), may get screwed in the process.
Continued . . .
Lortab [at] gmail [dot] com
In the interest of making this post relevant to the WAMPQ board, I am very much long the P's. Same goes for the Dime Ltw's.
Everybody seems to be hung up on this being a zero-sum game with the Dime Adversary Hearing Ruling.
Don't know if that's the case, but everybody needs to step back and think about this for a minute:
Do you really want a judge to make a ruling based on what outcome suits you best (rather than basing it on the LAW)?
That is akin to having opposing fans "praying to God," asking Him to have your team win.
And it doesn't say/do much for the Rule of Law, when a judge rules on the basis of some arbitrary hopes/wishes of a particular constituency.
Just my 2 cents. I'll go back to lurking for now.
Good luck to all.
"the judge will have to prove they have a strike price and or an expiration date in order for it to qualify as a warrant.
Right now it is only considered equity interest... I'd like to see someone exercise their warrant now and get common shares... ain't gonna happen and never will.
btw what was the ratio of conversion? 1 for 1? more? less? if that can't be established... oh well
simple definition -
www.ehow.com/about_4679714_definition-stock-warrants.html"
A simple definition will get you a simple (and often incorrect), answer.
And the judge DOES NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING.
It is not up to a judge to prove factual issues; to the contrary, for JMW to step and and try to prove things would be an improper comment on the weight of the evidence.
Rather, the PARTIES have to prove the issues at hand, and it is up to the judge to make findings of fact and conclusions of law based on the evidence and law presented to her.
If it really was as simple as you make it out to be, you ought to send your internet link from "ehow" to JMW and tell her that she needn't waste her time - you found the answer by doing a Google search and finding the info on "ehow.com."
In reality, it is NOT simple. The only thing that is simple here is your "analysis," and quite frankly, I'd rather not base my investments on "research" found at "ehow.com."
But thanks just the same.
"I really am tring to understand dimes position from what in read here and the best dime can hope for Is the value that wamuq commons might get . Then why is it that you would rather pay .70a share when you can pick up the same value at .06 at wamuq am I missing something?....."
"am I missing something?"
In a word . . . yes.
Hey, Grudge, I'd much rather convert him AFTER the Ltw's run up in price.
All kidding aside, you nailed it in discussing "may" vs "shall."
Yes, the Board "may" act . . . without the vote of the Ltw's, in order to protect the essential purpose of the Ltw's, and that is, to preserve the value of any Anchor litigation recovery for the benefit of the Dime Ltw's (or at least 85% worth net of expenses), and to TRANSFER that value over to said holders.
It "may" do so, WITHOUT requiring a vote by the Ltw's. The "may" is not to be read in isolation, but rather, in terms of what the "may" relates to, and that is, in allowing the BOD to act on behalf of the Ltw's, in order to protect their interests and in order to preserve/maintain the essential principles of the Agreements.
The "may" does not mean if it feels like doing so, or based on its whims, or which way the wind is blowing that way, or if SNHIT hedge funds convinced/coerced the BOD to give away one ASSET to JPMC (i.e., the Anchor Savings Goodwill Litigaton), while at the same time insisting that it NOT transfer the corresponding LIABILTIIES attached to said Asset (i.e., the Dime Ltw's), so that any value owing to the Ltw's could instead be transferred over to the SNHIT hedge funds and/or other creditors.
To read "may" as permissible, based on the whims of the BOD would evicerate the rights of the Ltw's from the get-go. One cannot read "may" to mean that the BOD "may" act to protect the rights of the Ltw's . . . if it feels like it that day . . . OR . . . the BOD "may" just as well take the Anchor assets to the race-track, lay it all on the Daily Double, in order to increase Estate assets, so that more value can be transferred to JPMC, the SNHIT's and any other Creditors EXCEPT the Dime Ltw's. . . if it wins . . . and the Board can just send an "I'm sorry" card to the Dime Ltw's if the BOD loses all of the Dime Ltw's money (i.e., the 85% net of Anchor value received from litigation recovery). Kinda like a "heads they win, tails we lose."
Implicit in the Warrant Agreements is the basic principle that a Board of Directors will act as a fiduciary, and shall not engage in any self-dealing . . . when making decisions affecting the rights of those to whom it owes a duty to act in good faith.
To suggest otherwise is to argue that the Dime Ltw's were worth zero from jump-street, and that any BOD could evicerate or nullify any right that the Dime Ltw' had to receive the benefit of the distribution that the Dime Bak Board made back in December 2000.
PSFS funds move toward distribution -
The federal government is expected by the end of this month to turn over $276 million awarded to shareholders in the defunct Philadelphia Savings Fund Society, said Thomas Buchanan, lead attorney in a lawsuit that was filed in 1993. The government had argued that all of the money should be held back until a potential appeal by one shareholder was settled, Buchanan said. Instead, $8.6 million will be held in reserve, with the rest available to cover expenses and pay shareholders starting early next year, said Buchanan, who participated Thursday in a conference call with the judge to discuss the final order in the case.
I listened to Steinber's closing arguments again yesterday evening (both his initial closing as well as his counter-arguments to Strochak's rambling, mumbling, st-st-stuttering b.s. closing), and Art is PURE GOLD!
The only thing I can remember about the UCC attorney that stuck his nose into these proceedings is that his name was "Johnson" and that he had 7 points.
Kinda like Papa Bush's "1,000 Points of Light." A lot of "blah, blah, blah" coming from a guy that is trying to screw you over, but without much substance.
I cannot remember for the life of me what any of his 7 points were, but I can recall thinking how this jac.kass was trying to give us "the Johnson Treatment," and what an appropriate last name this guy has.
3x$8.00=$24.00 after the real trial that's coming in DC
Uh, you replied pretty quickly to Chiron, sticking with with "optimistic" $24.00 prediction. But you must've missed the questions I asked you at DIMEQ Post 4883.
Can ya help me out with some answers to my questiona? I'm trying to do some research to see where I missed the information regarding "warrants of this type," and their treatment under BK law, and perhaps reassessing my investment in DIMEQ Ltw's.
You know, the type of warrants that had a Universe of Two (2). And where the only other warrant of this type was paid out in CASH, notwithstanding the virtually identical "boilerplate information," initialy mandating settlement/payment in common stock.
So if there are only 2 securities of this type, and one has already been settled in CASH, this should give JMW at least a little bit of guidance as to how "these types of securities" were intended to be settled. At least that's the way I see it, but you might have a better take on this.
Inquiring minds would like to know.
Ps: any information that you could give us as to your persistence in trying to save us from this "bad investment" would really help, as we can take into account any biases that you "might" in deciding why yours is the proper position/analysis with these very complex securities.
Thanks in advance! I'm really looking forward to your assistance with this, as it might really help me in reconsidering my investment thesis, and correcting any mistake(s) I might've made in investing in the Ltw's.
Has anybody even entertained the possibility that DIME gets zero?
Yes. The ones swallowing that ooey-gooey stuff that RosenRAT and his crew like to feed to their boyfriends . . . and delude people into thinking that Dime Ltw's are Equity.
I think that they fall under the "anybody" category.
I have no idea if you're full of crap - only you can answer that part of your question - but it would help to know the purpose of your "has anybody even entertained the possibility . . ." question and why you posted it.
But it would help to understand what a FRAUD BR/WGM's several failed POR's have been. Not just because of their conspiracy with the SNHIT's, but because they cannot explain why the Dime Ltw's would fall under Class 21 (above common shares at Class 22), when their FRAUDULENT POR's claim that Ltw's can only be converted into Class 22 commons.
Why the leap-frog ahead of the commons, RATSO?
Not that it matters. Class 21 and Class 22 get bupkis, but they should at least try to keep their FRAUD and their LIES intellectually consistant.
Ps: I hate to mention that Class 21/22 inconsistancy, as it can only give WGM yet more theories on how to screw the Ltw's. I suspect that POR 7.x will now rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic once again, and tell JMW that Dime Ltw's are Class 21 . . . no wait, Class 18 AT BEST. . . no, wait judge, we were wrong . . . they have to be Class 22 . . . anything but Class 12 . . . any Class that will leave the Ltw's getting fcuk.all.
Wait a minute, Class 23, because "warrants of this type" automatically get wiped out under BK law."
24, do I hear Class 24?
"All warrants of this type are void in the event of a BK so it don't matter who or where they came from wmi don't have to honor any agreements worthless warrants huge dump is coming IMO good luck with this "
Hey, great story, Bro!
A couple of questions for ya, however:
You made a blanket assertion that "All warrants of this type are void in the event of a BK . . . "
1. Can you cite which section(s) of the Bankruptcy Code you've relied on to make your assertions?
2. When you say "All warrants of this type," I was under the impression that there was a "Universe of two (2)" of these types of warrants. Can you tell us with specificity what section(s) of the Bankruptcy Code one could find references to "warrants of this type" and their treatment under Title 11?
Actually, let me throw in some more questions while I'm at it:
You've been coming on kinda strong of late, trying to warn us about our mistake in investing in "this type of warrant." Can you tell us why you're so interested (i.e,, Hell-bent), in helping us with your extensive knowledge about the Ltw's, warning us about our impending losses, and trying to save us from our stupidity in throwing our money away on "warrants of this type"?
I'm assuming that you're being truthful when you tell us that you are only invested in the common (the Q's) - if that's the case, why would someone want to take investment advice from a wall_street genius that cannot understand that if your investment thesis is correct, and that if you have found this secret information relating to "warrants of this type," why it is that you would not have dumped all of your common while you can still get a nickel per?
And why is it, that with BR/WG&M Hell-bent on wiping out the Dime Ltw's, and having failed miserably thus far (first in losing the MSJ, then losing its various attempts to low-ball the ring-fenced cap), a NYC law firm known for "taking care" of its Equity "constituents" hasn't been able to cite this reference of the Bankruptcy Code to JMW, and have this go "pencils down," as one of the lawyers here is fond of saying?
Are you delusional, or are you just disingenuous?
If it's the former, I can understand why you've invested in the Q's, to the exclusion of the Ltw's; if it's the latter, I wonder why you aren't working "of-counsel" to WG&M. They could certainly use someone with your vast knowledge of Bankruptcy Law as it relates to esoteric securities, and how the Code makes reference to them being "void in the event of a BK."
This is good stuff that would have made the Adversary Hearing in September irrelevant. Jesus, even JMW hasn't been able to figure this out yet or she wouldn't have let this monkey show have gone on this long.
Simple. They were ready to settle before the previous trial. Parker Folse said in court that the reason the settlement fell through was due to "re-trading" by another party. So there is concrete evidence that SG/EC were already willing to "not go to trial".
Quote:
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For one thing, can anyone explain why they would expect S&G to advise not going to trial? Or why they would expect the EC to take some paltry amount of a couple of billion when there is clear evidence of 10’s of billions not accounted for. Near as I can figure at least 27 billion missing.
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S&G is not a bankruptcy firm, as they so succinctly put it to the court (and as a direct F.U. to WG&M); I think that the quote, to paraphrase, went something like:
"Judge, we are not Bankruptcy Lawyers; we are a LITIGATION firm" (or words to that effect).
And this was a not so subtle dig at RosenRAT and all of his hocus-pocus, "nothing up this sleeve" magic tricks.
"We will run circles around you guys all day, and you'll be dizzy watching us do that" was what Parker essentially said. At least I'm attributing it to Folse. I don't think that Sargent could say it with the charm that Folse could, but I might be wrong.
So to answer your question, why would S&G settle?
Because the price was/is right. That's why. Plain and simple. Or as plain and simple as these things can be, given the circumstances.
And if the price isn't right, WMI/A&M/WG&M, the SNHIT hedge funds, and everybody else under the sun will know what it's like to get PANTSED, PUNKED, (whatever you want to call it), by one of the premier LITIGATION firms in the country.
I'll take Parker over RosenRAT (and his crew) any day of the week. The Defendants won't know what hit them.
The reason that S&G doesn't have to go to trial is if they can:
a. sit down and talk with the other side;
b. explain to the other side why it is that so much money is owed; and most importantly
c. convince the other side (parties) to open up their collective wallets and pay a "fair" price so that nobody has to go through any of this.
And the flip-side is that S&G will also let their opponents know/understand that if their (collective) wallets are not opened up wide enough by the Defendants, S&G will get a jury of 12 to open up the Defendants' wallets wider than they ever thought imaginable.
That's why they would settle; because it would be under S&G's terms, not the other way around. Think back to when RosenRAT was announcing the deal that HE had gotten everybody to agree to. And then, "something happened," and RosenRAT had a lot of egg on his face, but no cigar . . . or at least no deal.
It's essentially a case of "pay me now, or pay me later. But if you pay later . . . it'll be much later but you'll also be paying me MUCH, MUCH MORE."
We know that an agreement CAN be reached; the question is if the Defendants are smart enough to pay a smaller amount now rather than a larger amount later.
True enough, the Defendants' judgment was questionable (at best), if not flat out terrible, when they decided to roll the dice and let SOME of their INSIDER TRADING SCHEMES and CONSPIRACIES be exposed for all the world to see. Who else besides the Defendants know what they swept under the rug? I suspect that S&G know an awful lot, or this thing would have been over months and months ago.
My guess is that Owl Crook and the other Defendants did NOT take their lawyers' advice and settle with an "appropriate figure."
And now that JMW says that the claims are colorable, the price has gone up. The price of a settlement would have collapsed had she said there are "NO COLORABLE CLAIMS."
But she didn't say that. Instead, what she said was, "are you going after only two (2) of them, or do you want all four (4)" (on a platter)?
She kinda telegraphed to everybody as to what her views were on the Insider Trading Activities of the Hedge Funds, and their Conspiracies with WMI/A&M. The Defendants have been a little slow to pick up her messages (and open their wallets just a little bit wider).
Only time will tell if the Defendants are as stupid as I am giving them credit for.
"It tells me the Hedgies were privy to information that the common investor was not given..."
I too sure wish that we could have a bit of that Insider Information stuff.
I guess that some people are just luckier. Lucky to know other people that will play ball, and give them information that can make them 1 million fold the money that a common robber could use by sticking a gun in one's face.
Those SNH's sure were lucky that WMI allowed them to act as "Outsiders," while being "Insiders" to this case.
Hell, they even went so far as to negotitate parts of the give-aways with JPMC (that WMI later adopted the give-aways).
And SURPRISINGLY, this put the SNH's in a position to improve their financial position in this case, and doing so at the expense of others (e.g., Dime Ltw's).
The Wonders Never Cease!
Just lucky, I guess.
"Too bad these lawyers all get paid regardless, this would be over otherwise possibly."
If the judge suddenly announce/ordered that all lawyers at the Estate Pig-Trough (WGM, all the Official Committees, etc.), will be paid STRICTLY in the form of current, exisiting WAMUQ shares (and nothing else, no cash, no NewCo, just plain old common shares), I'll will bet you that they could have this sorted out by this weekend.
And that there would be "newly-discovered assets" to make this an "almost K-mart" type of emergence from bankruptcy court, with lots of money to share with everyone!
I could be wrong, but I'm probably not.
Put me down for a T-t-t-trial . . .
"Th-th-th-that's all folks!"
"I pity the poor management suckers and shareholders at AMR then!!!The AMR estate has a lot of cash and good ol' WMG will help them burn through it in no time,just like in WAMU....
They will probably have a harder time of hiding all the aircraft than they did with WAMU........LOL...."
Maybe, WG&M can call on A&M to "help" with the new management team at AMR.Q.
A&M' employs a crackerjack team of folks, and they can run AMR.Q into the ground (no pun intended), in no time.
And while it may take more time to hide hundreds and hundreds of aircraft (and other misc. assets), I have no doubt in the ability of A&M to secrete assets. They used WAMUQ as their training wheels, so the next one should be a piece o' cake.
Congrats, A&M! (remember, it's not who you know, it's who you F___).
"Jeezzzz.what a coincidence!!!They just found$200 million of MF Global's customer money in a JPMC account in Britain!!!I wonder how that happened???
Maybe we should check that same account for the balance of WAMU's 33 billion???"
Wonders never cease.
But I wouldn't check that same account . . . BR and WG&M have said, "move along, kids . . . there's nothing to see here."
So that probably means that all the money is REALLY, REALLY gone, and that if there were some spare money floating around out there, WG&M would have already given it to us (instead of simply sticking it to us).
But if they do happen to accidentally find a few extra billion dollars, pesos, shekels, whatever, just stuck in a locked filing cabinet somewhere in Cleveland, I am sure that Brian RosenRAT will immediately get on the Hotline to Parker Folse to inform him of our good fortunes!
"Maybe W,G & M, will want to end wamu quickly now they have a fresh corps to suck off (AMR)"
Naw, they can just bring extra leeches to suck out all of the blook out of both bodies (WAMUQ AND AMR)
Why let a good opportunity go to waste?
They'd much rather it go to their waist.
AMR BK:
Quote:
________________________________________________________________________________
It said Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP is lead counsel on the case.
________________________________________________________________________________
You know what that means for AMR shareholders[?]
Um, would the correct answer be:
A). That they will be sodomized and raped by the attorneys that at one point in time were arguing that WAMUQ did not "need" an Equity Committee, as they were more than adequately represented by BR of WG&M, to look after "their" interests?
And even though it would be reasonable to infer that they were talking about WaMu shareholders when they referred to "their interests" everybody should clearly have realized that the "they" that WG&M were actually referring to, was themselves. Because after all, the legal Canon of Ethics calls for attorneys to put their own interests in front (and ahead), of their own clients' interests. [sarcasm]
[RosenRAT and A. StrokeRAT have asked JMW to approve a POR that calls for paying off the Dime Ltw's in WORTHLESS WAMUQ stock, where even an infinite amount of Q shares wouldn't begin to approach the number due/owing, if you believe that WG&M will do ALL in their power to Zero out the Q's.
Tellingly, they have NOT asked that THEY be paid in WORTHLESS WAMUQ stock, as they are only "looking after 'their' interests," and they would much rather be paid in CASH. The "they," of course, referring to the attorneys "representing" the Estate.
And if Equity has no bread to eat, well, let them eat cake. WG&M, A&M, and the rest of this crew needn't worry about eating cake or bread, as they will be dining on nice Porterhouse steaks so thick, that they might very well choke on them.
So, to AMR.Q shareholders, forewarned is forearmed.
I'd say Loginusername's knowledge of investment picks is far, far better than your knowledge of "Cultural References."
And no, it wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor . . . it's not over until WE say it's over!
See, "Animal House," (1978). One of the Top Coming of Age movies of all time.
Right up there with "Fast Times at Ridgemont High." (1982)
"Did you hear about this surfer guy who pulled a knife on Mr. Hand this morning?
Oh, no! He just called him a d__k.
A d__k? Oh, God. People exaggerate so much here."
True believers-Rosie, Bashers, JPM/FDIC has done us many favors . . . Rosie has been doing us huge favors while we are still here.
Well, I suspect that RosenRAT has many more favors in store for you . . . he is going to continue trying to do some more favors for you . . . doing his damnedest to screw over Equity as best he can. He has such disdain, such contempt for his supposed constituency . . . this would almost be comical if it weren't so criminal.
This clown should have his bar card hole-punched, and then and then get one of his holes punched . . . by "Bubba." *
* I only wish that I knew what "Bubba" was in prison for, because everybody (me included), keeps citing Bubba as the chief enforcer in prison for all things requiring some form of retribution for all bad acts. And RosenRAT has a lot to account for.
Whatever Bubba's in for, I sure wouldn't want to mess with this guy.
Please accept my apologies (and my wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving Holiday).
It's just that it is so frustrating to see WG&M/A&M sparing no expense when it comes to screwing over as many people as possible, in their attempt to wrap up a bankruptcy that they assumed would have been over a long, long time ago, and wherein they assumed that their Trickery, Deceit, Schemes, Frauds (and so on), would NEVER, EVER be brought to light.
And you can see the fingerprints that the criminals left behind when you take into account, including, among other things:
1. The plan that would allow "H" shareholders to invest in the newly reorganized company, but only if they had a million or more shares. Gee, I think that would only allow about, oh, let's say FOUR (4) certain Hedge Funds that "may have" committed federal securities law felonies. This would have the effect of keeping the number of shareholders in the NewCo to less than 300, and thus not having to file PUBLIC Financial Reports with the SEC, and thus being able to hide their little K-Mart masterpiece from everybody except the actual crooks themselves. Even though completely contrary to bankruptcy law.
2. And speaking of things contrary to bankruptcy law, wasting countless Estate resources in trying to obtain 3rd party releases for the Insider Trading SNH's. Now that their criminal activities have come to light, we can begin to understand why the 3rd Party Releases were so critical, and why it was worthy of going through two (2) FAILED CONFIRMATION HEARINGS, and spending/milking/bilking the Estate (read: shareholders), on behalf of 3rd Parties that hadn't contributed anything to the Estate, except added costs, and luckily, a basis for BUSTING all of these clowns.
3. Recall BR practically begging, demanding, that JMW approve the first (POR 4?), back at the very end of December 2010, almost on New Year's Eve, so that the more valuable, usable NOL's could go to waste. Otherwise, you'd have to account for the additional value that would accrue to the Estate, by merely waiting a week or 2 to hit January 2011.
4. On a related matter, recall RosenRAT flat out lying to JMW, telling her that there was ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between (in NOL value), between a December 2011 Confirmation and a January 2012 one. But that he would "get her an answer to that question" before the end of the hearing. Recall that he NEVER gave her an answer that day, and when he finally gave her AN answer, it WASN'T an answer to the Question that she asked, but rather a bunch of spin about an issue that was previously of no concern to WG&M.
Then, all of a sudden (AFTER RosenRAT got BUSTED in lying to JMW), he's made it seem like "We just HAVE TO wait until AFTER the end of this year," presumably to Maximize Estate assets, of course - because RosenRAT is SO concerned for that part of his constituency, aka "shareholders" that he has been adequately representing all along).
This would almost sound like some SNL, or Monty Python type parody, if this weren't so real (and tragic).
I can only hope that these criminals get what they deserve (and what they weren't expecting).
Hey Jack,
Full Disclosure:
I own Preferreds and Dimes.
But when you say that you "feel bad if [the Dime Ltw's] got screwed," it's not a question of "if they got screwed."
They DID in fact get screwed. That what the Dime Ltw Advasary hearings were about. Fighting an uphill battle against a Debtor Hell-bent on wasting Estate resources against anyone that is not a favoref client of theirs, or not a hedge fund that was complicit in Insider Trading. If you didn't fall under the JPMC category, or the Insider Trading SETTLEMENT Note Holder Hedge Funds groups, you can rest assured that WG&M would spare no expense in padding it's bills. Forget about asking for asset lists, or asking to announce that long delayed opinion on the $4 billion account that belonged to WaMu.
And then:
" . . . but since I own P's and no DIMEs, I hope they lose, too."
That's not a very smart legal position to take. It suggests a "to Hell with what the law is" approach, "I want an outcome determinative ruling."
With that logic, JMW should just take any/all money that would otherwise go the Preferreds, and funnel it to the Q's, to Hell with the P's, not because the Q's are owed that money, but because some people only own Q's, and it would be "fairer" to give everything to the Q's, because collectively, the Q's lost more, as a group, than the P's.
Personally, I'd rather rely on the rule of law, instead of basing it on some intangible, such as how many people hold certain classes of shares, and in what quantities.
David
P's: I truly hope that you make a killing off of the P's because it means that I'll be making a killing as well.
But I am not hoping that we get a windfall based on yet another group getting F'd over by WG&M.
I only wish that JMW would start paying WG&M SOLELY in WAMUQ shares, and then maybe, finally, BR and his crew might suddenly start finding all kinds of assets that had previously been hidden from view.
Not any kind of illegal hiding of assets, in any way. Think of it more as a lucky, random kind of discovery, of course.
Pps: I am sure that could find more than a few people on this board that would have NO problem with this alternate approach.
Food for thought.
Loosely translated, what he meant to say was that he is just now realizing that he should've bought Dime Ltw's, and that he most certainly should have dumped all the WAMUQ shares that he is holding, as it has just started to dawn on him that his Q shares are worthless, and that he doesn't want to face facts that his Q investment is going to be OBLITERATED, WIPED OUT, ZEROED-OUT; they're going up in smoke.
I think that this is what he meant to say.
Jared,
The hearing is over.
Strochak was a mess in trying to follow.
His approach was scattered, seemed to be racing, was stuttering (more than usual), especially when JMW called him on a couple of his assertions.
Johnson, attorney for UCC, had 7 points, and I can't tell you for the life of me what they are, except that he would have been better served to stand up and tell the judge that they join in the Debtor's motion to try to screw Dime Ltw holders to the wall.
Art was polished, as usual, methodical in his approach, touching all his major points in sequence. Judge just listened to him the entire hour, without stopping to question any of his arguments (unlike the way she did with Strochak.
But I AM biased as I do own the Dimeq's (along with other series of securities, in varying amounts).
Suffice it to say that the Dime Ltw's "deserve" to win; whether they do or not is now pretty much in JMW's hands.
d.
Even more interesting . . .
He holds NO Dime Ltw's, and is trolling here, WHY?
Maybe it might've had something to do with Strochak's major st-st-st-uttering, toward the end of his fantasy story.
The one where a security tracking SOLELY the outcome of the Anchor Goodwill Litigation, and then having 85% of the value of the recovery of proceeds from said lawsuit, and payable in common stock . . . OR OTHER PROPERTY, INCLUDING CASH . . ." followed by:
converting the risk of recovery from the proceeds from that one suit, and turn it into an assumption of the risk of the Fortunes and Failures of the common stock of an entire company . . . one whose stock performance was irrelevant to the value to be conveyed to the holders of Ltw's due to the mandated adjustments under BOTH Warrant Agreements.
I also liked Adam's admission that they might be on the hook for the 28% portion of cash that Dime stockholders received back in 2002.
"If you take that there can only be [i]ONE, judge, JUST ONE, possibility . . . "
Or you can take that there could have been an infinite number of ways to transfer value to the Ltw Holders . . . instead of to WG&M's most favored clients, and to the SNHInsiderTrading funds that benefitted from NOT passing the Ltw LIABILITY to JPMC.
"Stochak mentioned that the Ltw's weren't worth the paper that they were written on . . ." oh really?
Then why was it that JPMC wanted to split out the Anchor ASSET from the Ltw LIABILITY, and INSISTED on a §363 sale?
Uh, right, Adam . . . there can only be one possibility . . . that somebody's ethics are kinda sketchy, Adam. Speaking of which, where your little partner Brian RosenRAT?
Hey, Adam:
Using your line you're arguing:
"Don't think that you're . . . getting over on everybody, especially the Judge, with mixing the value of the lawsuit with general equity risk."
He keeps ignoring the part after "you get common stock . . . OR OTHER PROPERTY INCLUDING . . . CASH . . ."
He's doing a "great" job of trying to confuse value of the litigation with general equity risk. I guess it's good to combine/mix the 2, isn't it Adam?
I love how Strochak was playing fast and loose with the Einstein Bagels case he cited.
The Put Agreement and number of variable shares payable depended on the success of the company, just as the Ltw's were variable dependent on the success of the litigation.
Success of whole company vs success of one litigation is the same thing. Of course, they are, Adam!
And how JMW just stopped him mid-sentence - she didn't interfere with Arthur's closing at all.
Adam seems a little rattled.
[Edit]: Strochak just used up his first "Totality of the "Circumstances"!
Anyone want to take the Over/Under on this?
I'll set the line at 4.5 times.
Place your bets.
And it gets smaller and smaller each day!
What's up? Do you mean apart being up at 12:45 am (CST), when the hearing starts in less than 8 hours.
I need to shut it the computer down and get some shut-eye.
Maybe I'll have dreams of Arthur kicking butt and taking names.
Or . . . maybe I should just wait the 8 hours, and listen to the Real Deal
Can't wait!!!
d.
Ps: do you know if Arthur will go last, as we have the burden of tipping the scales (ever so slightly), and since he has the burden, I hope he goes last. Or, if allowed like they do it here, they allow party with burden to close first and last and then wedge the Defendant in the middle so that his stuff he says "blah, blah, blah," is quickly forgotten, and they remember the man who can "hold court" and keep us captivated with that voice, that passion, that emotion . .. I'm telling you, I can't wait to here him give his closing!
Hope that JMW's rules allow for that, but I know that Arthur will do what is best for us.
This was more a question out of curiousity.
I'll ttyl!
Best of luck to us!
You made that one YOUR B!TC#!
Kudos to you, for essentially summing up the case for all to see, the way we see it, and they way they WANT it!
WHORES-TRADING coupled with the Totality of the Circumstance" wins the day for JPMC, WMI, A&M, and WG&M. Forget documents, forget READING them, just listen to what oher guys think.
And they couldn't be any happier to take (or "give away/gift away," depending on parties involed and whom they are SUPPOSED to represent), what was never theirs to begin with.
A dividend would be required only if 90% of this year's income has not yet been distributed (in order to retain REIT status).
My guess is that if at least 90% of 2011's income has not yet been distributed, a dividend will be approved.
I also have a hunch (and nothing more than that), that the Board does not really have a fire lighting under its collected posteriors (to declare a dividend on the publicly traded Series "D" shares, as these are non-cumulative, and there is absolutely no penalty to them if the dividends get skipped.
The Series "B" Preferreds continue to receive ALL their dividends (eventually), as those ARE cumulative.
Each quarter's dividends skipped on the D's saves 'em about/only around $800,000.
I seem them trying to redeem these as quickly as possible, but I could flat-out be wrong!
"Your opinion; what do you think the U's are worth with a DIMEQ win."
With a Dime Ltw WIN, the U's ain't worth bupkis.
Same goes for the U's with a Dime LOSS, except you're probably worth off, because as gophilipgo pointed out earlier today, JMW calling a LOSS for DIMEQ would tell that Equity will not be treated properly/fairly in her court. If the Ltw's are toast, I don't even see crumbs left for U's.
They might be worth the price of a bullet that JPMC might want to put in the back of each shareholder's head, "execution-style," and strictly metaphorically speaking, off course. JPMC "might" pay about 10 cents per share, if only to get this albatross off their necks, and sweep this very visible problem under the rug, but I couldn't the releases being much north of that.
Tomorrow's Dime victory (I'm optimistic), doesn't really mean anything to the U's, except to some feel comfort in knowing that the Judge will tell the Debtor that she's not going to roll over and play dead for them (as they would surely prefer that she do).
JMVHO
These are purely guesstimates, based on MY "opinions," as this is what you asked. I could be flat-out wrong.