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All the money JPMC is pouring into legal representation and this is the best they could come up with?
"Gee, WMI is going to ask for some of that same information so it is a burden upon us?"
I would argue that stealing WMB for a song and a cup of coffee is a burden on the equity holders who actually owned the bank.
Tell you what, you respond to all of our requests and we will give copies to Weil and Rosen...
Or you can keep jackin' us around and we will see how much that pleases THJMW.
THJMW ruled that she thought that in her opinion enough investigation has already been performed. If the EC can show that Rosen et.al. are pulling figures out of their a$$ then she can assess that and then decide that an examiner would be appropriate since we cannot assume that the debtor is not being forthcoming.
I am not sure why she ruled the way she did previously since I thought that the law was clear that if the UST indicates that an examiner is necessary then THJMW should have been compelled to appoint one.
I do not see why another set of independent eyes would not provide a even clearer picture of the situation. Obviously Rosen's shill (Blackstone) only served to produce an unqualified statement in support of the POSPOR (which is exactly what Weil/Rosen paid them to do), and an independent examination is warranted.
Hopefully this amended POSPOR makes it clear to THJMW that Weil/Rosen have no interest in justice, just dividing up the spoils, and that an impartial third-party view is needed. A number of investigations by FDIC, UST, DOJ, et. al. have focused on fraudelent conveyence rather than an accurate assessment of the value of WMI pre-seizure.
There needs to be an criminal investigation of Weil/Rosen/Damon/Blair for their actions in this whole debacle, but I do not hold out any hope for that since JD is a 'good friend' or President Obama and the whole matter of criminal wrongdoing will be swept under the rug (which has already happened.)
Let's hope THJMW calls them on the carpet tomorrow.
Exhibit A ROCKS!!
Can't wait to see Rosen's response. He will probably beg for more time.
Let's hope THJMW slams the door...
What a load of BS.
JPMC/WMI cannot declare themselves absolved of any wrongdoing.
No letter.
I have holdings both in an e-trade account and a fidelity account and I have not receieved any notification.
Is this ploy legal if ALL shareholders are not notified?
Whole market fell - do not believe price is indicative of situation.
Again - cite one instance where it has occurred.
But you seem to be ignoring the fact that the "pre" stockholders decided to sell their shares rather than wait for justice. They sold not only their interest in the company but also their right reap the rewards of their investment.
If in the middle of the Kentucky Derby you decide to sell me your wager ticket and the horse comes in does that mean that you get the winnings?
I am a pre- and post- shareholder and I cannot see a distinction or a valid way to enforce the settlement.
Can you cite a particular instance where pre- sharholders were paid regardless of whether or not they still held the shares?
Patience is a virtue.
I see so many people here thinking that their ship is going to come in the near term.
I think that in the end that WMI will prevail and we should all see a good return on our investment, but JPM is not going to roll over and give equity eight bucks a share. It is going to take a number of court judgements, some of which will likely end up in the appelate courts. This is a long term deal.
I hate to think that people are so anxious that a minor uptick is going to get them to sell their shares. And I am sorry to see so many postings worried about pps.
It is what it is. If you are looking for immediate gratification then you picked the wrong vehicle.
I think that the general consensus is that if JPM were willing to pay $8 a share before they rigged up a fraudulent transfer of the assets (which we could refer to as 'fair market value') and then apply treble damages for the fraud that did occur then the immediate face value of the settlement would be $8 x 3 or $24.
My personal opinion is that the $24 is still low for the actual value. A bank that was essentially worth in excess of $300 billion dollars was sold for $1.9 billion. Although certain subsidiaries were writing and buying poor loans and reselling them, the bank still had plenty of deposits and assets. The parties involved, with the exception of JPM, have admitted that the seizure was not warranted, and it is more than apparent to anyone with even a single brain cell that the last minute rush was intentionally designed to circumvent events that would occur in the next day or two that would have provided WMI with more than enough resources to continue (besides the fact that TPG was prepared to provide even more cash).
JD engineered this whole fiasco, and I hope that he is the one who is punished most severely. It was intentional that all of the assets were assumed by JPM and that the liabilities were left with WMB and that there were additional steps to try ensure that the shareholders were left holding the bag. Add on top of that the chutzpha that now JPM and FDIC think that they are entitled to tax credits awarded to WMI.
Our biggest immediate problem is that the current WMI board is more than happy to sell us and themselves out to JD and agree to a POR that does nothing to serve those that they are accountable to. I am hoping that THJMW sees this as clearly we do and grants the motion to hold an annual meeting so that we can try and change the board in a way that force the bank to argue on our behalf.
Bottom line, I think that $24 is the worst case scenario...
The whole reason that we have THJMW is so that she can make a sound decision based on LAW, not POLITICS.
I do not care whose arse JD has kissed or greased up, the courts are (supposed to be) above all of that.
My only fear is tha THJMW renders a fair an honorable decision and that another judge in the appeals circuit with political aspirations overturns it and the we are forced to roll the dice again with another appeals judge.
I wish that we could take this travestry straight to the Supreme Court and avoid the appellate courts and instead render a judgement based only on FACT.
Jamie Dimon is not an 'ethical' person.
His engineering of the takeover proves that.
FDIC were merely his co-conspiritors.
Forget Rosen - we should be emailing the Justice Department.
I think we are overdue for a special investigator looking into JPM's acquisition of WaMu.
That is not what I heard. All I heard was that THJMW was not going to dismiss the bondholders claims just because JPM/FDIC wanted her to. She left the door open for FDIC to make a claim on their behalf, and if the FDIC chooses not to then she invited them to make their own claim.
A claim is not a settlement. A claim is a request. THJMW was only stating that she was not going to make a decision on the matter yesterday and left the issue open for the time being.
There was never any statement that the bondholders must be made whole before equity sees anything.
If anything, the opposite is true. WMB bondholders cannot hold WMI accountable for their problems. They have a better case against OTS/FDIC/JPM for fraudulent conveyance that made their bonds worthless.
Except that their are plenty of smoking gun documents that indicate that JPM engineered the whole takedown and enlisted OTS/FDIC to help them carry it out.
THJMW is not likely to ignore the facts...
IMHO, no.
This is just more of the dance, and the MM's are going to try and keep this in a narrow range.
It will take more concrete news, such as THJMW approving the SJ and/or shareholders meeting to get any significant traction, but even that will be limited (and may lead to alot of sell off by those who want a quick return rather than a maximum one).
Any serious investor has to stay long on this one. If THJMW issues a SJ then it will likely be contested in appeals for years. The only option for a quick play would be if JPM comes back and offers equities a value that THJMW deems fair and that FDIC and WMI bondholders agree with.
see post #185164
Shares are shares.
Somebody owned them before you and sold them to you. You assumed their investment, risk and reward. You own that equity position.
They cannot only reward pre-seizure stock holders.
MM's got started early <eom>
Except that it does not mean the EC gets what they want. It only means that nobody has filed an objection with the court. It is still up to THJMW to decide whether or not to grant the election.
It kind of burns me that someone like Blackhorse, with over 3 TRILLION in managed assets, is looking to burn the commons...
1.4 million would not be enough to cover the costs of litigation.
That's why the POR attempts to dismiss all claims that JPM stole the bank.
JPM wants it all. The tax refunds. The assets (i.e. wind power). A minimal payout. And idemnity.
Of course, this is the ideal opening position for them. They get everything and we get squat. Now let's talk...
I hope to god that THJMW takes one look at this BS and says we are not going to waste any more time playing this game. SJ in equities/bondholders favor and then JPM can try and convince the appealate courts that they did not conspire with FDIC to steal the bank.
I accumulating for as long as this farce continues...
It is not the debtor's decision to make. They cannot state they are happy with it and make it so.
THJMW is who makes the decisions. She decides whether or not the POR is equitable. Given all of the DD there is no chance that she would rubber stamp this thing. She fought for the EC in the first place, and she is not ignorant to the facts that show FDIC and JPM hijacked this bank.
No matter which way the judge eventually rules, the losing side will tie the issue up with appeals for years.
For those looking to sell at, say, $1 then the rejection of the POR or the release of an SJ will likely satisfy your needs in the short term.
There are a significant number of us who feel that justice will prevail and believe that untimately either WMI will be made whole, possibly with damages, or that JPM will swap out the equity holders. This could result in pps anywhere from $4 to $24. We are in this for the long haul.
So now is the time you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky? Well do you...
Uh, right. eom
No facts.
I hope not. I hope we're down all next week so that I can accumulate. This is not going to be resolved next week. I expect a minimum of 6 mos to a year. Regardless of THJMW decision there will be appeals launced by the losing side. In all likelyhood it may be years.
You have been slamming commons for some time without cause.
Come back when you have a substantiated opinion.
excellent buying opportunity
I don't think so. I think it means that WMI can issue new common shares.
Hope so. Buying opportunity. There is no way this POR will fly.
The deadline to file the POR is 11:59pm. There is no decision pending. All interested parties will review (i.e., THMJW, EC, bond holders).
I think the only people who are having problems are those who expect a quick return on their investment.
These are also the ones who are easily scared away by some of the troll postings that state that commons will receive nothing.
I think that the bulk of us have been in this for some time and a) know what we should expect, and b) are prepared to sit it out and wait for a resolution.
Anyone expecting a resolution tomorrow, or next Friday, or next month needs to re-evaluate whether or not this is the right investment.
I have been entrenched in this for some time. My wife used to work for Providian and received a considerable amount of shares through her ESSP. I still kick myself for not selling them before the bad press when they were still worth six digits. In any event, I still hold that equity that was converted to WAMU stock during the acquisition.
Since then, based on what I know about this situation, I have been adding shares to my 401(k) account based on my belief that this will play out in equity's favor (and maybe even more so if fraudulent conveyence is determined). I have made a modest investment, one which I will not regret if this thing goes south, but one which will reward me handsomely if we end up getting true equity plus damages. Even if we get equity or half equity then I will still see a tremendous return on my investment.
My advice to anyone who holds a position in WAMUQ is to consider it a long term investment. Courts move slowly. Anyone expecting an immediate return should look elsewhere.
Well I'll be buying also...
I'm sitting on .15
You misunderstand. This was not an offer to WMI - WMI does not have the power to accept it. This was an initial offer to the court (i.e. THJMW). Only the court can accept or deny the offeron behalf of the creditors.
The court is empowered to make an equitable settlement to all parties involved. JPM/FDIC want a solution that impacts them the least, and more importantly, shields them from the fallout that will occur when it comes to light that the FDIC enabled JPM to perform a hostile takeover of a solvent bank for their own profit.
I do not expect this case to be resolved in the coming weeks, but I expect we can find some indicators of the ultimate direction of the court in the next couple of months. A final resolution is likely years away.
As any serious investor will advise you, invest for the long term. I expect the pps to drop next week based on both the fact that JPM is ordering employees to sell off any shares in their 401(k) plans (which is questionable in my mind as to whether or not they can compel people to divest) as well as the usual shenangins from the MM's.
The end game is to find JPM and the FDIC guilty of manipulating the situation, and if our justice system has the will to do so then we equity investors have all to gain.
Fish,
We need to make sure that the media grabs hold of this.
No point going to the 'controlled' media (i.e. most of the financial press CNBC, WSJ, etc.). There needs to be more of a grass roots effort.
I have had success forwarding information to local media outlets and if they run something then it will likely end up on the national wire. We need to be proactive and participate in the desemination of this information rather than sit back and hope that the media picks up on this on their own.
I disagree.
The proposal that was made was simply a shot across the bow. They have to start someplace, especially since they requested a delay, but it was not intended to be the final offer only a starting position.
Of course they are going to slant it as far in their favor as possible. This, they think, gives them the best negotiating position moving forward.
Their fatal mistake, though, is underestimating THJMW's support for the equity shareholders and bold holders who are being slighted by the proposed settlement, and the fact that JPM and the FDIC are not entitled under any circumstances to share in the tax refunds.
Not only is the proposed settlement highly inequitable, it attempts to quash the issues surrounding the illegal seizure of the bank.
I think that in the long run not only will JPM be forced to return an equitable settlement which will more than address the bond holders as well as the preferred and common equity positions. And that subsequent lawsuits will find that JPM and the FDIC conspired to take over a solvent institution in conflict with the law and will ultimately be forced to make Wamu shareholders whole. There is substantial published evidence to make this argument, should DOJ choose to take it on. (Which they may not because of the parties that would be exposed).
Since the bulk of my holdings are in my 401(k) I have no problem waiting for the ultimate results.
I am not naive and understand that our financial and judicial systems are corrupt and may not ultimately deliver justice, but there is a sufficient belief in the process that tells me that in the best case that I will be rewarded well for my efforts and in the worst case I will not have sacrificed a significant amount on this 'wager'.
JPM and the FDIC know that they are in the wrong. THJMW knows that they are in the wrong. We can only hope that the truth prevails and that political pressure does not leave this issue with an undesirable odor in the end.