Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
You ask me, all of the spider silk companies with prototypes have yet to release their proposed product on mass-scale....
Now Bolt Threads and Mylo handbags; using Modern Meadow's technology...
Kim probably took one look at Bolt Threads ties and said:
Thanks SZ,
Thats good to hear that there will be a report published this week about those developments.
It would be nice if we could read somewhere that Quang Nam Silk JSC was officially working with Kraig Labs. Because as of now, I've only read them to be competition for land and labor. This seems strange because you would have to assume that Quang Nam Silk JSC knows all to well that Kraig Labs silk is much better. So for them to start this silk renaissance in their region without using KBLs worms seems like a losing strategy. If Kraig Labs gets to producing significant amounts of silk, it would make Quang Nam Silk JSCs silk obsolete.
Maybe we will hear of a partnership soon. And maybe this report will come out in conjunction with a grand opening of Prodigy press release? We can only speculate.
Thanks
-GT
Kbl could offer the farmers that amount and still only cost them 9 grand a year for 1ha production.
Sounds pretty good to me.
Hi SZ,
Thanks so much for resending this info. I remember reading it when you first posted it, but it seems more pertinent now that we know things are rolling in Vietnam and that Kraig Labs is involved in the project (as opposed to us hoping they were before the official ERC and IRC came through).
And I agree that using local production numbers is much better considering the wide range of styles/strains/climates that are used for sericulture around the world. So thank you for providing those
From the article, it looks like current production yields for cocoons in that area is about 1.4 metric tons per hectare per year. What that equates to in raw silk is anyones guess. From what I've gathered, this is using the lower yielding mulberry strains from China. I'd imagine if they began using the high-yielding hybrid strains, this 1.4 ton/ha/year for cocoons could increase.
From your original post I read that to convince farmers to switch back to mulberry, they would need to see an economic equivalent to what they make cultivating other vegetables (peppers, beans, etc.) which is about 250 million VND per hectare. Thats quite a bit more than the mulberry/silkworm farmer average of 140 to 160 million VND. I think this is why Vietnam is interested in Kraig Labs silk. The high quality silk will be able to create a premium that covers the increase income for mulberry farmers. That and the new higher-yielding mulberry strains.
It's also nice to see that they can start harvesting the mulberry leaves at 6 months. Even though the yields are much less than when the plants are more mature, its nice to know they can begin feeding the worms relatively quickly without having to wait for an entire forest to grow. You originally posted this a year ago so it is feasible that the project has been already implemented and that some mulberry fields are at least harvestable at low yields.
Anyways, thanks again for your continued due diligence. Always appreciated.
Other things to consider is the population survival rate, type of mulberry food used (mulberry leave varieties, pellets,etc.)
At any rate, i'd just like to know progress is being made on all fronts in Vietnam.
I think we can all agree that there are discrepancies all over the internet about how much silk can be produced from an acre of mulberry fields.
it makes sense considering there are different methods to cultivation the land. Some farmers seem to grow full mature trees, while some seem to harvest saplings.
It could be that some farmers use "hi-tech" methods like the hybrid mulberry strains that sickzone presented. Or maybe some silkworm farmers use a much larger silkworm. Could be many reasons. Who the hell knows?
Hi Paul,
Thanks for sending these figures. I've never seen it expressed in "per Tree" format before. Can you please send a link to where you got this info?
Thanks
Hi Sick Zone,
I'm not sure if ES1 numbers are correct either (Although, from materials I've read online, I've calculated anywhere from 500 to 800 metric tones of silk can be produced from 1000 hectares of mulberry trees), but in his defense, he was asking for evidence against it, which I think he truly would like to see if it exists. And I think he realizes not all of that mulberry will be going towards the production of KBLBs eggs.
One thing I will say in regards to the amount of silk produced in comparison to how many hectares of mulberry fields Lam Dong has, is that I've read in multiple places that Vietnamese farmers essentially gave up on the rearing of silkworm for fiber since they could not compete with Chinese silk. A lot of them turned to silkworm rearing as a food source because it is less labor intensive and creates a product faster. This may be the reason for the discrepancy of the amount of mulberry fields in Lam Dong compared to reported fiber production for Vietnam.
Just a thought.
BTW, this is for everyone, not sickzone, but I also don't like playing the magical production numbers game, but when there is such little info, it gives people something to do. I definitely wouldn't make financial decisions off of it. The numbers i used to get my projections come from the links below:
Each worm consumes about 37 grams of mulberry leaf during its life:
http://www.suekayton.com/Silkworms/whole.htm
"It is interesting to note that one ounce of silkworm eggs contains 40,000 eggs (1,500 eggs per gram). These worms will eat 3,500 pounds (1500 kilograms) of mulberry leaves, and will spin cocoons which will produce 18 pounds (8 kilograms) of silk thread"
Depending on the strain, you can produce anywhere from 15,000 to 24,000kgs of mulberry leaf per acre per year:
http://vikaspedia.in/agriculture/farm-based-enterprises/sericulture/mulberry-cultivation
Hope this helps
Thanks Yankee. Always appreciated.
Thank you for this info, Yankee!
It is quite thorough and helpful.
Quick question, do you know if Warwick Mills has made shoot packs in the past?
I can't imagine they are very hard to construct, but just wondering. I'think I read that they are just 10cm x 10cm swaths that are layered to whatever specs the client wants.
Thanks
So would we be correct to assume that this is the first piece of woven spider silk fabric since the one that is on display in the museum? I understand one came directly from orb weaver spiders, but with DragonSilk having a tensile strength upwards of 2Gpa, and orb weaver dragline silk has a tensile strength around 1Gpa, it's safe to assume that this woven material has better properties than the one in the museum (assuming elasticity is similar).
I know "woven" has been the real crux, and a true milestone, since it takes considerably more finished thread than making knit pieces.
Look at it from their point of view. It's KBLB moving in and taking over/changing/highjacking their silk industry that they have done for thousands of years.
If anyone wants to rest a little easier about competitors like Amsilk, Bolt Threads, Spiber, etc.., and you have a lot of time on your hands, you should read this paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306253307_BioProcess_Design_and_Economics_2nd_Edition
It breaks down the cost structures for producing protein through fermentation. The same process that Kraig Labs main competitors use.
Especially pay attention to page 45 where they begin to breakdown costs for human insulin production. Since this is very close to the cost structure Bolt Threads is looking at. There are differences in yeast v. E. coli in some processes, but the fundamentals are the same.
It makes what Kim claimed (and some here balked at) as an estimated $27,000/kg price point for Bolt Threads, in actuality, look like a bargain. Especially considering competitors like Bolt Threads and AMsilk still have to spin their product into fiber.
Hi Rayo,
Thanks for your input but I disagree on a couple of things.
They would need production facilities spanning an area 50 times the JD production facilities to achieve economies of scale. It is going to cost many 100"s of millions to establish scale. That is a fact. More power to them, but the initial money is prohibitive. That is why they will remain dismissed.
Roughly 7% of a batch produced comes out with the higher molecular weight proteins required to make stronger fibers.
No problem, Dave.
I've read the article you are referencing and I can understand your concern. Just know that Bolt Threads is backed by VCs, so they, like publically traded companies, rely on the perception of viability. However, unlike publically traded companies, they don't have to rely on forward looking statements to cover their butts. They can make entirely false statements with little repercussions.
They need their VC's to not give up on them. In their position, they need to say whatever they can to keep VC money coming in, or else they are toast.
One thing you have to ask yourself is why they are introducing their new "Mylo" leather when they haven't even mastered spider silk protein yet? My answer is that they are covering their bases for when Kraig Labs completely makes their fiber obsolete. I mean, they claim they are solving the scale-up issue, but the total amount of protein they created for the ties was 3 kilos (the CEO said they had 60grams of fiber each x 50), their partial silk beanies were likely around the same amount and that was fairly recently. How are they making these small amounts when a fermentation cycle is only 2-4 days? Why would they purchase a small retail store in New York City that sells very expensive axes? Will they only make enough to sell in low volumes that can be sold in a boutique store?
These questions all have answers, and the answers become much clearer if you can admit that there scale-up problems are out of their control because that production process has been refined for decades.
And also, I'm pretty sure he didn't say his fibers could be similar pricewise as normal silk. I remember him saying they "could" be similar to high-end fibers (whatever that means).
Hi Dave,
We've discussed it on here before, but essentially, Bolt Threads has some very fundamental flaws to their approach.
First, there "technology" is not new. It has been used for decades to make proteins such as insulin. They genetically modify yeast to create a protein. This is a very expensive process and it yields very small amounts of protein compared to the quantity of your initial medium (mixture within your fermentation tank). You can do this with almost any protein that is small enough for the yeast to metabolize. There are tons of labs that you can contract out to produce your desired protein. You send them the protein you want, they send you the purified protein (for roughly the $37,000/kilo pricing that has been posted on Kraig Labs website). What Bolt essentially did is just choose a certain spider silk protein to be produced this way. This is also the same way that the other competitors make their silk protein. No part in this process has any significant breakthroughs in order to increase the amount of protein yield they receive from these yeast cells. If there were, it would be huge scientific news and spider silk would doubtfully be the first product produced from this new process (also, I read all their patent applications, they are using the exact same decades old process with no breakthroughs, not surprised).
Second, because the yeast is such a basic organism, it doesn't have the metabolic pathways to create large/long proteins the way complex organism like cows, humans, rats, spiders, or silkworms can. And spider silk is a very long repetitive protein chain. This is what gives it it's amazing properties. Each hydrogen bond on this long repetitive chain is attracted to the hydrogen bond of a nearby chain. So the longer the chain, the more bonds are interacting with each other, and ultimately, the stronger the fiber is. For bolt, the protein chain that the yeast can produce is a cut-off version of native spider silk protein. So technically, at the molecular level, Bolt has spider silk protein, which is why they can claim it. But, unfortunately for them, it is very short, so it doesn't have properties even close to native spider silk. So unless the scientific community all of a sudden discovers a yeast that can produce large proteins (more than 4-500 kDa) then Bolt is out of luck for ever getting a long enough protein that would even come close to spider silk properties (heres a hint: Scientist have been trying to find one for a long time and haven't)
Third, once Bolt has the protein (which takes a ton of purification to separate it from the rest of the medium because they have to make it into a powder first), they then have to make it into a thread which is an entirely other complex process that adds major costs. This would increase there costs from the published costs of protein production from companies that only produce the protein in liquid form. (sorry if that doesn't make sense.
There are other issues that I won't really get into, like how there process is in no way sustainable because the ammount of water and sugars needed to feed the yeast to make minute ammounts of protein, but I'll save that for another day.
For the sake of time, I didn't go into any scientific details so this is very broad strokes, but I hope the above explanation helps.
With the elasticity of silk, whether it be DS or something else, I do not see it being used in bulletproof vests.
You have to stop the bullet before it passes through the body — not after.
It's amazing
It is not contamination or sloppy or crossover breeding, its INSTABILITY.
I think those are just caveats that Jazz threw in for the sake of accuracy. Unlikely mutations are... well.. unlikely. And even if a silkworm has a mutation, the likelihood of that mutation specifically effecting the silk is also... unlikely.
My buddy from Newport gave me some not too long ago. Very very good call.
It's friday. I'm gonna go drink.
Thanks for your reply Jazz, and sorry for the delay. I'm traveling and have shoddy service.
Sloppy husbandry. Someone mixed the worms up and didn't keep up regular testing, even though it's a simple test.
We are also looking at cross breeding our silkworms with Vietnamese silkworm lines ahead of the transfer.
This is definitely one of the stranger PRs we've seen. Once again, more questions than answers.
I don't know why genetic drift is an issue this far into the process. It makes me wonder if Kim is trying to send sterile offspring to Vietnam, for security reasons. Regardless, it's better to catch it now than when commercialization has gone full bore. If the new Microbiologist kid was the one to catch this, than he's already paying off.
And also...
This could cause a delay in commercialization if the other parts of our commercialization plan fall into place earlier
Moving forward, I will keep any communication I have with Ben to my gullible self.
Yes. I was told the Army, Kraig Labs, and Warwick have been in discussion and have changed some preferences and we will be getting an update on them, most likely in the next spider sense. What they are, is anybody's guess. I will wait just like the rest.
Most people don't trust Ben. That's fine. I have no idea what he has discussed with other people. But he has never told me anything that hasn't materialized.
There has been some changes in the deliverables for the Army contract. The newsletter should clarify what those are.
Quote:
<< People forget that Kraig Labs has already sent the Army shootpacks. >>
That is incorrect. KBLB has only shipped fiber to Warwick Mills. Warwick Mills is still trying to produce the shootpacks (and they have been for about 5-6 months).
The first thread which is finished and expected back shortly will be sent to Warwick Mills immediately. It will be used to create the knit shoot pack samples while we wait on the balance of material to be produced and reeled for the woven designs.
Knitting timeline,
The batch of thread from the silk reeling company that we should be getting back soon is expected to be sent to Warwick mills to start producing the knit shootpack samples. The knitting equipment can be set up with a smaller amount of material than a woven fabric requires. Having coordinated our strategy forward with our Army customer, we will start with the knit samples to get materials for testing as quickly as possible while we wait on additional materials to complete the woven test samples.
my guess is, kblb has a pretty good idea it will perform well..but of course, the army has to agree..
To follow through with shareholders, to me, means keeping us updated on the progress of certain initiatives, not just the end result. This is what Kim did in this particular instance with the new ETF strains.
I'm not saying he has followed through on everything else. He clearly hasn't.
It's on Kraig Labs website, and I posted the majority of it already. But here is a link...
http://www.kraiglabs.com/kraig-biocraft-laboratories-to-develop-new-custom-recombinant-spider-silk-under-contract-with-us-army/
I don't think this was the PR that everyone wanted. But, if you read the Oct. 30th PR first, and then todays, you will see a good example of a followthrough. Which is counter to the "Kim NEVER follows though" comments. Just my 2 cents. Still waiting like the rest.
ANN ARBOR, Mich., Oct. 30, 2017 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Kraig Biocraft Laboratories, Inc. (OTCQB:KBLB) (“Company”), the leading developer of spider silk based fibers, announced that it is now working to create a set of new custom designed transgenic silkworms under its contract with the US Army. The Company is working with material performance objectives, defined by the customer, to develop entirely new genetically enhanced silkworm strains.
These new silk polymers will be evaluated against defined performance requirements and the best performing materials will be scaled up to produce upwards of 100kgs of silk thread. The Company expects the new strains to complement its record setting Dragon Silk fibers, but, with an eye on additional targeted applications, the fibers will be designed to generate even higher tensile strength. As a result, these new enhanced fibers should provide outstanding performance in protective textile applications.
“This project is an excellent opportunity for us to demonstrate the incredible potential and power of engineered silk,” said COO Jon Rice. “Tailoring the focus of our design efforts directly to a materials performance requirements is a perfect example of the amazing flexibility, and possibilities, of engineered proteins. These new transgenics will be the beginning of our Enhanced Tactical Fiber (ETF) line of materials. While a monumental moment for the Company, it is but one of many new and exciting opportunities for, spider silk, the Company, and our shareholders.”
To support this effort, the Company is hiring additional research and production staff and rapidly building out its in house lab capabilities at its Michigan based research and production center.
To view the most recent edition of Kraig’s Spider Sense quarterly newsletter and/or to sign up for Company alerts, please go to www.KraigLabs.com/newsletter
ANN ARBOR, Mich., – January 19, 2018- Kraig Biocraft Laboratories, Inc. (OTCQB: KBLB) (“Company”), the leading developer of spider silk based fibers, today announced that the Company succeeded in creating a new hybrid transgenic silkworm at its Michigan production facility. This is the first hybrid silkworm created at the new Michigan facility, which recently opened in October of 2017.
This is the first new hybrid line developed in conjunction with the Company’s US Army contract and is the next step in its program to expand its commercial recombinant spider silk offerings. The new recombinant spider silk strain combines properties from one of the Company’s best performing transgenics with a large commercial silkworm line, to produce larger cocoons and even stronger silk.
“Creating our first hybrid in the new facility is a great moment for the Company,” said Jon Rice, COO. “The transgenic line that we used, as the base for this new hybrid, has been under development for some time. We are very eager to review the test results for this new line, as they come in. The opportunity to soon analyze its capabilities, once transformed into a commercial line, are very exciting.”
my guess is kim got bogus info from some article many years ago and started counting on his fingers and toes and came up with $37 mil a ton!..and he insists there is no other info available so he continues to use those utterly ridiculous numbers that even he knows are completely false..
[1] Multiple independent protein fermentation providers provided these cost estimates. These estimates reflect the cost for usable silk protein on a per kilogram basis. Others may report costs per kilogram of fermentation solution not usable silk protein.
would you prefer I just make things up like kim does?..
im not that concerned about bolt threads themselves..
you think bolt threads got nothing..they cant mass produce..and if they do, its at $37 mil a ton (lol)....
you don't think kim really believes that BT's price is $37 mil a ton...even though he put out a pr claiming that..
or maybe as I have suggested 10 times already, you could go to BT's website and read where they say they can make their product for around the same price as a few other common fibers..i believe wool was mentioned..
Was the completion of the lab the event you were expecting?
It would be difficult estimating the solid waste produced. For one, the nutrients would be suspended in the medium, so it would be akin to figuring out how much solid sugar is in your can of coke without looking at the label. And two, it would depend on how much nutrients Bolt threads is adding. They probably have figured out the optimum amount of sugar needed for their process. They've chosen to use corn for their sugar source, which they would likely need to use an enzyme to break it down to usable sugar to feed the yeast. Their founder says they buy corn in truck loads. Which I feel would be fine if they weren't using it to make a product with such low yields. That corn, or water used to grow the corn could be going to other uses, like feeding people or animals.
The issue about their waste also gets more complicated when you consider what they need to do to dispose of it. They can't just pour it down the drain like they would in their labs. That many nutrients can cause downstream eutrophication which can be deadly to complex marine organisms. Their waste would likely need to be treated. Another expense that arises during scale-up for their process.
I'm not sure if this was helpful to your original question
what?..another 24 hrs?..still sounds great
my comment was about the greenness not sustainability..
THIS question dealt with sustainability and why you felt BT's method wasn't sustainable..and your answer is "Yes. Water is a valuable resource."??
yea..unfortunately the problem has always been that the best kim can do is just pitiful..if kim really wanted to put out an honest estimate, he certainly could have..he wouldn't even have to put forth any effort.. he already knows..instead he chose to play stupid..just what you want to see in your ceo..
i don't see numbers..how many extra steps are there?..how much do they cost?..i think the problem is you don't know..but you don't believe kim or BT's estimates either..so you feel comfortable making the assumption that it surely isn't economical or sustainable based on what?..
so....theres a lot of work involved?
ok...I mean its not like someone has to hold a liter in his hands and spin around or lay it out in the sun to dry..
they got machines for all that right?..
so BT can create 700 kilos of their silk in 48 hrs..sounds good to me..sounds real good in fact..
I don't know how green it is or isn't and how it compares to the process used to create polyester...but then I don't care..great if its green..no big deal if it isnt..
I'm not sure why its not supposed to be sustainable..will the vats wear out?..gonna run short of water?..
BT says they can create their silk at roughly the same costs as other fibers...kim seems to think it costs $37 mil a ton...lol
as for economical..i cant tell..i don't see anything about the costs associated with all these liters of this and that..
I don't believe either...but I think its fair to say kims estimate is just ridiculous and he is making himself and kblb look absolutely foolish..hes not fooling anyone and hes also not being honest..