Replies to post #10089 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[sylvester80]

Oh, is that right??? First of all no word was ever said about Zeev's parents. NONE! Secondly, let's see what you have to say about these words (from a jew - an Israel soldier):

"And that brings me to the second specific issue, that of the Nazi allusion.
Some readers thought that the way the Tikkun ad said "obeying orders" was an allusion to Nazi murderers' claim that they were "just obeying orders." Rabbi Lerner has rightly pointed out to these readers, that automatic execution of orders is a characteristic of all dictatorship, not just the Nazi one, while refusal on moral grounds is a sign of democracy. I agree, but let me be less polite and politically correct. After all, it's just my country that's going up in smoke as I write. What is this? Does Israel have the exclusive monopoly of labeling all its rivals as Nazis, and everyone else has to shut up, even when reality starts speaking for itself?

Parties that support the essentially Nazi idea of deporting all Palestinians from the country, have been part of our Knesset and our 'legitimate' political map since 1984. Recent opinion polls show that 35% of the Jewish public now supports this 'solution', as it is sometimes called. Leaders, Rabbis, and just plain folk feel free to call openly in the mass media to eradicate Palestinian cities with or without their tenants. Last weekend, Gen. (res.) Effi Eitam, fresh out of the military and all ready to take the leadership of the religious public and become a deputy or alternative to Netanyahu, received a flattering cover story on Haaretz supplement. He unfolded his chilling ideology, calling to expel those Palestinians who don't want to remain in the Galilee and West Bank as serfs, to Jordan, and from Gaza to Sinai. And he said this: why should us, the country poorest in land resources, bear the burden of solving the Palestinian problem? Well I don't know about you, but I remember some of the Nazi rhetoric in that dark period between the Kristallnacht of 1938 and the beginning of the war, when Jews were expelled from Germany but could find no safe haven anywhere else. When I see a retired IDF general and rising political star use the exact same Nazi rhetoric on Israel's most 'liberal' newspaper, without any criticism by his interviewer or the editors - my hair just stands on my head in horror."

http://www.guidedones.com/issues/regions/meast/openletter.htm

[sylvester80]

I certainly expect an answer from you to this message:
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=823293

[sylvester80]

Here is one more. I wonder what you think about this. A very clear comparison to NAZI tactics. And yet you still have not shown where I ever spoke anything about Zeev's parents yet I have shown you jewish views that equate what Sharon is doing to NAZI tactics. The lies and hypocrisy here is amazing.

"Let's move from the political scene back to the ground. My friend, Captain (Res.) Dan Tamir, decided to refuse to serve in the Territories about a year ago, after he realized what he'd done as a reserve regiment's intelligence officer a few weeks before that. He realized he had laid out the plans to convert a large Palestinian town into a closed ghetto. You can find his full statement on our website, http://www.seruv.org.il/. The vast majority of Palestinians in the Territories now starve in such ghettos; in those days of mercy when they are allowed to leave them by foot and perhaps catch a taxi, these taxis are forbidden from using most of the paved roads in the region.

But why listen to a 'leftist'? Let's hear it from senior IDF officers. One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz (Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how the German army 'operated' in the Warsaw Ghetto. A week later, the reporter confirmed this quote and the fact that this is a widespread opinion in the IDF, and went further to morally defend it. A small number of people, including myself, tried to raise a scandal over this. One letter to the editor was published in Haaretz. A much tougher letter, which I wrote, was never published, nor was my plea for a phone discussion with an editor ever answered. The issue just died down. No one in Israel or in the Jewish public abroad was interested. Where were all these holy souls, who now scold Tikkun because they indirectly allude to the Nazi horror, where were they all when a senior IDF officer proudly called, "in order to beat the Palestinians, let's be Judo-Nazis"?

In my letter to Haaretz I went further. Knowing the IDF mentality and adding one to one, I concluded that the IDF is operationally prepared to invade refugee camps - an utter, indefensible war crime - and through this leak to the press it is starting to pressure the government and prepare the public opinion for the invasion. The letter was not published. It was sent on February 2. A few weeks later we all saw the horrors of the refugee camp invasions and the bloody revenge attacks that followed. And you know what? Army generals and colonels morally and professionally pat themselves on the back, because these invasions "prevented terror", and killed only dozens and not thousands. (Note: in fact, the major reason limiting the bloodshed was the 'terrorists' responsible decision not to turn the camps into all-out battlegrounds. But this may change in the next round.)"

http://www.guidedones.com/issues/regions/meast/openletter.htm

[sylvester80]

And one more... Just because I agree with these jewish views it does not mean they should not be discussed cause Zeev does not want anything negative said about Sharon. Yet how one jumps from this to saying something about Zeev's parents, is a mystery, a slander and an outright LIE. And I expect an apology. Either that, or you better have a very good explanation about all this Nazi talk coming from jewish people. Sheesh...

"Let me end this 'Nazi' discussion with Jose Saramagu's brave statement a couple of days ago. In case you haven't heard (no such case, I presume), he visited Ramallah and said that the reality imposed by Israel in Palestine is a crime. A crime that can be compared with Buchenwald and Auschwitz.
Now Saramagu is no fool; he knows that there are no gas chambers in the Territories yet. But his keen writer's eye has perceived, that we are already well down the mental road that may lead there. This man is a true friend, and a true friend tells you the ugly truth in the face. Indeed, if you thoroughly brainwash yourself that "it's us or them", where does it lead you when push comes to shove?
Saramagu's cry is intended to shock us, to wake us up to what we have really become, to what we are really doing, and to how all this might end. In this sense, he is trying to do exactly what we refuseniks tried to do with our letter, and I thank him for what he's done even though his words may have been too strong to swallow for most people."

http://www.guidedones.com/issues/regions/meast/openletter.htm

[profit_guy]

excellent post integrivest, and thanks for digging up those relevant posts...i feel truly sorry for zeev and what his family endured...none of us can begin to understand what so many of his people went thru...words never suffice