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integrivest

02/21/03 9:22 AM

#6379 RE: Zeev Hed #6376

Ze'ev: The ectopic pregnancy takes place in the fallopian tube (also known as a tubal pregnancy).

I would think that rational crossover date could be reasonably argued to be when a fetus can survive outside thew womb.

Currently between 23 and 25 weeks (in most cases, with medical help).



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mlsoft

02/21/03 9:05 PM

#6491 RE: Zeev Hed #6376

"Aquinas suggested that no life exist until thew end of the first trimester. I am sure that somewhere between these two dates, there might be a cross over date everyone can agree on."
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Zeev...

You have touched a nerve with me on that one. While I am generally against abortion (especially once the fetus is fully formed), I have often had my doubts about the accepted biblical interpretation on the subject. While the biblical references are convincing at first glance, they are not as specific as they appear and leave room for some questions.

I see nothing that demands that all fetuses are endowed with a soul, even though some apparently are (the fetus of John the Baptist was said to have lept in his mother's womb when he heard Mary's voice). What is not precluded is that God, in his infinite foreknowledge, obviously knows which fetus will be born alive and which will not and that would suggest the possibility that those which He knows will die before birth are not ensouled. The same argument could be used for cloning, i.e. that clones would not be endowed with a soul and thus could not survive (serious speculation there).

If that thesis were correct, it would answer the quandary of saving the unborn child or the mother, as does the judaic tradition. I have no clue which is the correct answer so I go with the conservative answer that all abortion is wrong as that well could be God's intent. Most certainly, partial birth abortion is always wrong.

Sometimes more questions than answers.

mlsoft


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ergo sum

02/21/03 11:19 PM

#6504 RE: Zeev Hed #6376

It is a complicated world.
Exiled American Outlives Stalin's Shadow
By MICHAEL WINES



UBNA, Russia — When David Natanovich Bell first applied for a visa to visit the United States, at the American Embassy in Moscow in October 1987, the consular official took one brief look at his Soviet passport and one long look at him. She left the room, then returned with her boss.
"So," they asked him, "do you want to renew your American citizenship?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/22/international/europe/22BELL.html


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Babylon

02/22/03 2:03 PM

#6533 RE: Zeev Hed #6376

Zeev,

As far as Judaism is concerned, no life exists until the fetus has taken its first independent breath.

Could you point me to a passage where this is clearly defined please? I would love to look it up...