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Zeev Hed

01/26/03 2:06 PM

#3461 RE: sarai #3460

Here is a "somewhat" sarcastic description of Mitzna possible inauguration speech, of course it is a gross distrotion of his views, but it is in line with AArafat approach to peace in the region:



Amram Mitzna’s Inauguration Address
Steven Plaut
23 January 2003


Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you for electing me as Prime Minister of Israel. As you know,
I ran on a platform of peace and it is now my intention of keeping my promises to you and my backers
and financiers from around the world. I shall be fulfilling what I have pledged to do.

In my election campaign, I ran on a platform that you voted for through me. I promised that I would
conduct negotiations with Arafat and the PLO no matter how many Jews the PLO was murdering
during the talks, with the intention of reaching an agreement for a complete withdrawal from the Gaza
Strip within six months. I also promised that if the PLO refused to strike a deal with me within that
time, then I would withdraw from the Gaza Strip unilaterally and without any agreement on the part of
the Palestinian Authority for anything. I confirm tonight that this is my solemn intention.

In addition, within a year, I will reach an agreement with the Palestinian Authority for a complete
withdrawal by Israel from the entire West Bank and the eviction of all Jewish settlers living there.
And if the PLO refuses to reach a deal or agree to my terms, then Israel will simply pick up and
withdraw from the West Bank anyway, whether or not the PLO agrees to it. Any settlers who refuse
to cooperate with the withdrawal will simply be left for the PLO and the Hamas to deal with.

So as you see, I refuse to abandon my principles and my struggle for a just and lasting peace. And just
as I intend to resolve the conflict with the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, whether
or not the PLO agrees to my terms or agrees to any compromise, so I intend to resolve the Palestinian
refugee question. I intend to turn the Negev into a large resettlement district for all those people
around the world claiming to be Palestinian refugees. They will be settled in the northern Negev and
in the area around Beer Sheba, and Israel will withdraw from these areas of Palestinian resettlement
whether Arafat and the PLO like it or not. We will negotiate with the PLO in good faith for 18
months, but if the PLO refuses to agree to our terms, we will withdraw from Beer Sheba unilaterally.

The next stage in my peace program will consist of settling Israel´s conflict with the Hizbollah and
Syria once and for all. I pledge that Israel will enter into serious, full-hearted negotiations with the
Hizbollah and Syria and I hope they will produce a peace accord. I am willing to wait for 24 months
for these talks to yield results. If at the end of this two year period there is, as yet, no accord, then
Israel will
solve the problem unilaterally, whether the Syrians like it or not. I will order a complete withdrawal
from the Golan Heights, whether Bashar Assad has agreed to my terms or not, and I will order a 20
mile zone created along the Lebanese border within Israeli territory in which no Jews will be
permitted to live and in which Lebanese Shi´ites may exercise their own sovereign self-rule.

As the next step in my program, I hereby pledge that I will allow no longer than 30 months for talks
with Israeli Galilee Arabs to produce a peace accord. As you know, my party and I are committed to
granting equal national rights to Israel´s Palestinian nationals, which is what we now call the Israeli
Arabs. So, if by the end of these 30 months no peace accord has been reached in the talks, then I
intend to solve the matter unilaterally by withdrawing Israel from all of the Galilee, whether the Galilee
Arabs like it or not, and will order all Israeli troops and civilians to withdraw behind the new secure
borders stretching along the Kishon Creek next to Haifa. Yes, I am aware of the fact that I will have
to order my own parents to abandon their homes in the Haifa suburb of Kiryat Haim, but I am sure
they are willing to make sacrifices for peace. If my good friend Gad Zeevi is not in prison at the time,
he promises he will set them up in a nice penthouse.

Next, I intend to resolve once and for all the conflict between the Jews and the Arabs in the central
parts of Israel, in Nazareth and the Wadi Ara district. I will conduct good faith negotiations with their
representatives from the communist parties and the Islamic fundamentalist movement. I will give
these talks no longer than 36 months. If by that time there is no accord reached, then I will order
Israel to withdraw from all areas outside of the greater Tel Aviv - Gush Dan district. Israel will have
peace, while maintaining its heritage and historic control of both banks of the Yarkon River. Naturally,
I expect the Jews of Jerusalem to relocate there. I will try to obtain permission from the President of
Palestine for them to visit their old homes in Jerusalem al-Quds every once in a while, but if he
refuses, then we will take the matter into our own hands and not allow any Jews to go to Jerusalem
any more, whether the PLO likes it or not.

Finally, as my fallback plan, I intend to conduct serious ‘round-the-clock negotiations with all of our
neighbors, including the President of Palestine in al-Quds. I will allot a maximum of 48 months for
the talks to succeed, that is, the period before the next elections in Israel will be called and voting
conducted at the Yarkon voting booth. But if those negotiations do not succeed, I intend to take things
into my own hands and end the conflict once and for all. The Yarkon colonists will be ordered onto
the nearby American cruise ships, and Israel will be converted into a web site, whether or not the
Arabs approve, and peace shall reign in the Middle East once and for all, for ever and ever and ever.

You have my solemn oath!

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deadbeat45

01/26/03 3:28 PM

#3465 RE: sarai #3460

>>Jesus never referred to himself a "Messiah" or "God" either. He referred to himself as "One with God", saying these were not His Words but the words of the One who sent Me, etc

Jesus does refer to himself as the "Son of Man" and I know from Matthew 26:63-63(niv) 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[Messiah] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
that he claims to be the Messiah. Mark records the same ...Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[Messiah] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Mark 14:61-62(niv)
Luke records Jesus' word before pilate 67"If you are the Christ,[Messiah] " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
71Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips." Luke 22:67-71(niv)
Also Jesus affirms Peter's confession 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[Messiah] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5]Matthew 16:15-18(niv)
I find it warming that the Almighty came to earth as a humble human calling himself the "Son of Man" associating with SINNERS, yet at the same time retaining His title as the Messiah.

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mlsoft

01/26/03 4:23 PM

#3471 RE: sarai #3460

sarai...

"Islam believes that Jesus was a Messenger or Prophet, sent by God, but not God - Himself, thus elevating Jesus to the same status of other Great Prophets of the Hebrew Bible. This interpretation is, of course, at odds with the Jewish and Christian interpretation, so it is one that is not considered by either. As a Scriptural basis for their interpretation, Islam cites the NT Gospel of John."

I find it hard to believe that anyone could read the testimony of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (especially John) and come away with any other conclusion other than Jesus claimed to be One with God, to have eternal existence (John 8:58), to be the only way to God, and to be the Messiah (Christ, in the Greek) (Matthew 16:15-17 see also my post #msg-709583). It is certainly evident that the Jews of His day understood His claims in that way, for they sought to have Him stoned and then crucified for His blasphemy.

In my view, the Jewish response is far more honest intellectually than the Islamic or liberal "christian" one. To assert that He was a great prophet or a great moral teacher and man seems ludicrous in light of the claims He made for Himself - logically, the only choices I see are to accept His claims (and those of the rest of the New Testament) as being true, or totally dismiss Him as a nut that received exactly the punishment He deserved.
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"There doesn't seem to be any indication that Jesus intended his followers to abandon the Hebrew tradition. Jesus's gripe was with the Pharisees interpretation of the Word of God, rather than with Judaism itself. Jesus rejected their interpretation of the Torah as hypocracy, and he was deemed a "false teacher". An argument can be made that Jesus embraced the Torah tradition, while rejecting the Pharisees interpretation."

I agree - the New Testament teaches that Jesus never sought to abrogate the Old Testament (Torah) teachings. He was here to live the law as no man could, in perfection, and to explain the OT teachings from God's viewpoint to those that would listen. Most of all, it was God's plan from eternity past that He would die on the cross, to pay the debt of sin in full for all that would accept it, and to fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies.
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"Both sides of the "Messiah Debate", Jews and Christian, would probably deem the above blasphemy because it would mean they were both WRONG - Heaven forbid! But given the undeniable historical and theological significance of Jesus, the idea of Jesus as Messenger or Prophet is worthy of debate, and probably should be debated, imo."

Perhaps - but for myself, the issue was resolved not through debate, but by searching the scriptures. After a life of being an agnostic, I finally decided to sit down and read the Bible (I had never seriously read it) with a view that it was either book full of worthless traditions, myths, and bogus claims (which I expected to be the result), or it was exactly what it claimed to be - the inerrant Word of God to man - either it was all true or it was totally worthless, no middle ground. To my surprise, the more I read, the more it all made perfect sense, and I believed.

mlsoft