Replies to post #82837 on Tornado Alley (PROG)

[wbmw]

Re: How to talk to complete idiots

Thanks, I think.

I'm hoping this is more of an, "I agree with you and here's something you can relate to," kind of message, as opposed to, "You resemble the topic of this article." :-)

Of course, there's a 4th option not discussed in this article. Rather than arguing over data, or demeaning the person, or ignoring them, it's also possible to drop the cynicism, and give someone the benefit of the doubt that they aren't an idiot, just because they believe in something very different than you.

For example, you've seen much of the same data in this world that I have, and it might convince you to be an atheist. Nothing wrong with that, it's simply your conclusion. You may have never seen any evidence of a God, and plenty of evidence that the Universe runs of its own accord. Such a conclusion would therefore not be without good cause.

On the other hand, another person could conclude that there could be a God, and that this God chooses to never show themselves in a way that is obvious or apparent. I am not a Creationist, and I don't believe in all the Bible stories, but I do choose to believe that there is more to this Universe than atoms flying around obeying Einsteinian and Quantum Mechanical laws. I believe that some things - the origin of the Universe, or the miracle of Free Will - cannot be explained by conventional means, and if anything, present a contradiction to everything we know about science.

Of course, I could not say that an atheist is wrong, if they should point out to me that it's very possible we'll discover something in the future that would give a rational explanation to these things. After all, we've logically explained many things in the past, so why not assume that everything has an explanation? That very well may be the case - I just don't choose to believe that it must be so.

[F6]

When Freedom Is a Dirty Word

Note: first published on Huffington Post [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/when-freedom-is-a-dirty-w_b_294891.html (with comments)]

Posted by Frank Schaeffer at 2:51 PM
Tuesday, September 22, 2009

On what had to be one of the most disheartening media appearances I've ever made -- in terms of my usual shtick as an author and commentator -- I was just on Court TV yesterday. Court TV was fine. The case we were talking about made me want to throw up.

I was commentating on Oregon v. Carl and Raylene Worthington, involving Christian fundamentalist parents who refused to give their child medical care on the basis of their trust in faith healing. (I was invited because as a former Religious Right leader -- long since departed from that shadow land -- they thought I'd bring an "inside" perspective.)

The Worthington's fifteen-month-old little girl died surrounded by her parents and other members of their congregation praying for healing. No one called 911. As far as I'm concerned they used their daughter the way Islamic suicide bombers sometimes use children to carry their bombs.

When right-wing evangelical Christians say they fear government death panels and a "takeover of medicine" by the federal government it seems strange to me that what they fear the federal government might do would be to save people like this child's life. So much for the "pro-life" community.

I just wish the government really would take over health care, and for that matter remove children from any family that is crazy enough to deny care to a minor. And while they're at it they should curb the rights of redneck loons to carry loaded weapons into public meetings.

In fact it's time to roll back the extremes of freedom in freedom's name.

The religious right, the gun-carrying paranoids all have one thing in common: they are taking a libertarian/religious view to an extreme that will unhinge this country. It's time to make certain types of freedom a dirty word.

Here's the case as it was laid out for me by the folks at Court TV:

Carl and Raylene Worthington are lifelong members of Followers of Christ, a controversial religious group which doesn't believe in using medical doctors. (Children have died in this group before who needed medical care.) On March 2, 2008, their 15-month-old daughter Ava died at home after she developed pneumonia. The Worthingtons were indicted by a grand jury for not providing adequate medical care.

On Sunday, March 2, 2008, 15-month-old Ava Worthington took her last breath at approximately 7:15 p.m. as her parents, Carl and Raylene Worthington, along with a host of members of the Followers of Christ Church, prayed for her recovery.

The "healing," which took approximately 45 minutes, began sometime near 6:00 p.m. According to the Worthingtons and church members a short time later, (estimates range from 15-30 minutes), Ava died in the master bedroom of the family home. Following church practices, the infant was anointed and the county medical examiner's office was called to report the death.

In July of 2009, Clackamas County Circuit Judge Steven Maurer today announced the verdicts in the trial of Carl and Raylene Worthington. They both faced manslaughter and criminal mistreatment charges. Raylene Worthington was acquitted of both charges; Carl Worthington was convicted of a criminal mistreatment charge.

How can this happen in America?

Make no mistake about it, there is a scarily large subculture within our society that, in terms of its "life values," is utterly hypocritical. At the recent so-called Values Voter Summit (September 22, 2009) held by the top Republicans and their Religious Right supporters where were the protests against bad parenting where crimes are committed in the name of God?

Where were the speeches against gun-toting nuts?

Nowhere.

Because the Religious Right is not religious or conservative: they are nihilists. Call 911 for that child? No! Arrest someone for carrying a loaded weapon to a presidential meeting place? Don't tread on me! I have rights!

Every day the "family values" religious extremest chip away at actual family values, and not just when they're letting little children die of neglect in the name of God. The evangelical/fundamentalist America within the ordinary everyday decent caring America is largely responsible for banning, effectively curtailing or harassing and minimizing effective sex education in our schools. This leads directly to a far higher incidence of abortion. This same group has now turned its collective will against reforming our health care system in a way that would give women and children an opportunity to have access to family care that would not just reduce the incidence of abortion but the incidence of mortality in everything from childhood diabetes to lacking prenatal care.

If ever a case pointed to the fact that we need government intervention in the curtailing of our insane levels of "religious freedom" the Worthington case is a perfect example.

It's time that all American children "belonging" to fundamentalist extremists come under the care of the state. It's time that all children are guaranteed an education wherein they will be taught facts rather than religious mythology. It is time to look at child-hurting homeschoolers and demand a curriculum that is fact-based.

With the Republican Party in the grip of the Religious Right it did everything in its power to turn the case of Terri Schiavo into a circus fraught with political "family values" overtones. Where were they as baby Worthington died -- killed by faith in God?

Thousands of children in this country are raised in everything from polygamous child-abusing religious communes to homes where medical care is denied because of "religious freedom." Tens of thousands more are beaten according to the teachings of James Dobson and his pro-corporal punishment child-intimidation manuals. Where is the law?

Religious freedom means freedom to worship in the Church of your choosing and -- after your're 18 -- to believe anything you want. Before you're 18, society should protect you. Freedom in the hands of fools is becoming a dirty word. It is time to reconnect with reality and real family values, free from abusive religion.

Frank Schaeffer [ http://frank-schaeffer.blogspot.com/ ; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer ; http://www.frankschaeffer.com/ ] is the author of Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back [ http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-God-Helped-Religious-Almost/dp/0306817500/ ] and the forthcoming Patience With God: Faith For People Who Don't Like Religion (Or Atheism) [ http://www.frankschaeffer.com/ ]

Copyright 2009 Frank Schaeffer (emphasis in original)

http://frank-schaeffer.blogspot.com/2009/09/when-freedom-is-dirty-word.html [with comments] [thx Stephanie]


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D.L. Hughley: Frank Schaeffer Author of Crazy for God on What's Left of the GOP
March 07, 2009

[with comments] [embedded at http://www.frankschaeffer.com/ ]


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Pro-Life — And In Favor Of Keeping Abortion Legal

Pro-Life — And In Favor Of Keeping Abortion Legal
Fresh Air from WHYY
Dec 09, 2008
After helping organize religious fundamentalists, Frank Schaeffer had a crisi of faith.
[audio, 39min]
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=97998654&m=98006669

by Frank Schaeffer
December 9, 2008

Frank Schaeffer's parents, Francis and Edith, were best-selling authors who were instrumental in linking the evangelical community with the anti-abortion movement.

But after coming of age as an evangelist and helping to organize religious fundamentalists politically, Schaeffer had a crisis of faith: Though he is pro-life, he decided that abortion should remain legal.

Shortly after the presidential election, Schaeffer wrote an open letter on the Huffington Post explaining his views and urging President-elect Barack Obama to support programs that provide care for pregnant women and reduce the number of abortions. In the letter, Schaeffer disassociated himself from his former politics, writing, "The pro-life cause poisoned many of us who were part of it. Me included. It led to self-righteous hubris that extended to a general attitude of hate toward the 'other.'"

Schaeffer is the author of Crazy for God and Faith of Our Sons.

Copyright 2009 NPR

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97998654 [with comments]

[PegnVA]

Excellent article!

[BullNBear52]

I believe I discovered that yesterday.

The absolute best way to speak to complete idiots is, of course, not to speak to them at all.

Futile and a complete waste of time.

[n4807g]

"But it's not just the fundamentalists. This Rule of Idiocy also explains why, when you show certain jumpy, conservative Americans the irrefutable facts about, say, skyrocketing health care costs that are draining their bank accounts, and then show how Obama's rather modest overhaul is meant to save members of all ages and genders and party affiliations a significant amount of money while providing basic insurance for their family, they, too, will scream and kick like a child made to eat a single bite of broccoli."

easily translated

But it's not just the extreme left. This Rule of Idiocy also explains why, when you show certain jumpy, liberal Americans the irrefutable facts about, say, skyrocketing public education costs that are draining their bank accounts, and then show how Obama's rather modest overhaul is meant to save members of all ages and genders and party affiliations a significant amount of money while providing a better education for their children, they, too, will scream and kick like a child made to eat a single bite of broccoli."

On display every day.........they just keep pounding on that granite block with a tack hammer. Obviously they are the product of the system they so adore....

[StephanieVanbryce]

Newsmax columnist: Military coup "to resolve the
'Obama problem' " is not "unrealistic"

IS This Sedition ?

From John L. Perry's September 29 Newsmax column: [ http://www.newsmax.com/john_perry/obama_military_coup/2009/09/29/266012.html ]

........[ There is a remote, although gaining, possibility America's military will intervene as a last resort to resolve the "Obama problem." Don't dismiss it as unrealistic.

America isn't the Third World. If a military coup does occur here it will be civilized. That it has never happened doesn't mean it wont. Describing what may be afoot is not to advocate it.

[...]

Will the day come when patriotic general and flag officers sit down with the president, or with those who control him, and work out the national equivalent of a "family intervention," with some form of limited, shared responsibility?

Imagine a bloodless coup to restore and defend the Constitution through an interim administration that would do the serious business of governing and defending the nation. Skilled, military-trained, nation-builders would replace accountability-challenged, radical-left commissars. Having bonded with his twin teleprompters, the president would be detailed for ceremonial speech-making.

Military intervention is what Obama's exponentially accelerating agenda for "fundamental change" toward a Marxist state is inviting upon America. A coup is not an ideal option, but Obama's radical ideal is not acceptable or reversible.

Unthinkable? Then think up an alternative, non-violent solution to the Obama problem. Just don't shrug and say, "We can always worry about that later."

In the 2008 election, that was the wistful, self-indulgent, indifferent reliance on abnegation of personal responsibility that has sunk the nation into this morass. ]..........

http://mediamatters.org/blog/200909290042

[fuagf]

"Looking for me mate Donald." Crocodile Hits Hollywood Beach

"How to talk to complete idiots " 2009

CBS Miami
Published on Nov 20, 2017

American crocodiles are found in salt water areas around South Florida and Caribbean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnz9NDQh2sI

--

Unbelievable Proof That Donald Trump Is a Shape Shifting Reptilian

LOL .. Icke knows Trump is a shape shifting Illuminati
https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/756874/Donald-Trump-Illuminati-or-not-New-World-Order

See also:

How to talk to complete idiots
2009 - https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=41915315