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OrangeFluffyCat

09/01/04 5:43 PM

#62841 RE: harrypothead #62828

The current controversy in Southern Baptist circles has been coined by different people as having different roots. It is my own contention that the roots of the movement are founded in the realm of conservative politics more than in the authority of scripture. Southern Baptists have struggled with the issue of the nature of the Bible and have continued to work together through- out the last century. It was only through the merger of the ultra-conservative view of the nature of inspiration with ultra-conservative politics that a group was united to take over the national convention.

Earlier in the 20th. century, J. Frank Norris (CNP too), pastor of First Baptist, Fort Worth, had success in motivating audiences with his participation in politics. Norris held rallies all over Texas to keep Al Smith from taking the state in his presidential bid in the twenties.

Norris is another "father" of this whole CNP etc mess. Rabid "fundamentalist", far right politics. Demanded complete separation from all churches, agencies, and individuals that did not conform to fundamentalist ideology. "During the 1960s, three independent Baptist periodicals--The Fundamentalist, The Baptist Bible Tribune, and The Sword of the Lord--devoted extensive attention to the civil rights movement. Founded in Fort Worth, Texas, The Fundamentalist was originally edited by the infamous independent Baptist J. Frank Norris. He and like-minded fundamentalists linked Communism with modernism (including evolution and integration), social programs, and the ecumenical Federal Council of Churches (FCC, later the National Council of Churches, or NCC), which conservatives frequently labeled "soft on Communism." Norris defended nuclear weapons and an American first-strike policy; he felt that although nuclear war might destroy the world, it would be part of God's plan to bring "a new earth and a new heaven" as predicted in Scripture.

Civil Rights (1960s) was seen as "communist inspired attempt to destroy the nation" to the CNP gang. They can't use that tack overtly, so its gays, liberals, feminists, secular humanists conspiracy blah.

There's a book: GOD'S RASCAL
J. Frank Norris and the Beginnings of Southern Fundamentalism
By Barry Hankins --Colorful and outrageous, influential yet despicable, J. Frank Norris was a preacher, newspaper publisher, political activist, and all-around subject of controversy. One of the most despised men in traditional Southern Baptist circles, he was also the man most responsible for bringing hard-edged fundamentalism to the South. "A fine starting place for anyone interested in researching the long struggle between fundamentalists and moderates in the Southern Baptist Convention."



Of particular interest was Norris' keen interest in Missionary John Birch. Birch had a weekly contact with Norris. John Birch was a missionary to China and was killed on the mission field. The charges brought against Birch by the Chinese were that he worked as a secret agent for the United States. Some missionary groups have allowed their missionaries to work as aids for covert operations. Is this what Birch was doing? We don't know. Other groups have used tactics linked with political purposes in Viet Nam and Mexico. Most recently, the CIA used the Catholic church working with Polish dissidents to over throw governments.

One of the most intriguing items of interest was the production of "Facts Forum". This radio show was a forerunner of the modern day "Point of View". It was an attempt to "Christianize" right-wing politics. It's goal was to merge the Christian faith with politics. Some groups in South America had been successful in merging left-wing politics with the church. Leaders on the right were doing the same thing.

"Facts Forum" was organized and supported by a Southern Baptist. At one time, the influence was so widespread that the program was listened to all around the state of Texas. The man behind the underwriting, sponsoring and authorization of viewpoints in this program was the wealthiest man in the world. His name was H. L. Hunt.7 Hunt was making an attempt at uniting the Christian version of the world with right-wing politics. His son, Nelson, was active in the organization named after Norris' missionary friend...the John Birch Society.--and that gang ultimately gave birth to the CNP -- along with Moon help.

The John Birch Society published the AMERICAN OPINION. Birchers blame the problems of the world on secret Bankers. Whenever the Hunts had problems with their business ventures, they blamed their problems on a conspiracy of Jewish bankers out to get them.

Anti-semitism was another hallmark of the Birchers, along with their "anti-communism",
though they saw communism in mundane workers rights etc. Coming close in years to the Nazi holocaust, Jews in America understandably weren't comfortable. Welch, head Bircher, also accused the majority of the nation's clergy of Communist sympathies -- right in line with what the far right fundamentalists were claiming.


The influence Hunt had on his pastor, W. A. Criswell, is interesting. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist Dallas, blessed the "Facts Forum" program and helped promote it. H. L. Hunt once sent out one of Criswell's anti-Kennedy sermons all over the state of Texas to keep Kennedy out of the White House. This was similar to the action J. Frank Norris had taken a few decades earlier. Hunt's influence was widespread. Charles Koller, in his book called POINTERS FOR PASTORS, calls Hunt a "mature Christian layman". Koller's opinion is subject to historical question. Even while a member of First Baptist Church, Hunt used under-the-table methods in funding "Facts Forum". He channeled the money given through fictitious churches in Florida. This helped him avoid paying taxes and having to give account for programs obviously politically biased, yet tax exempt. Hunt was a follower of Joseph McCarthy and considered him a personal friend. He was also influenced by Billy James Hargis, the preacher who prided himself on being a Communist fighter and a segregationist.

Criswell was one of the hard core committed segregationists that sought to ensure that blacks were not admitted to Southern Baptist churches, subscribed to the "Curse of Ham" routine too, which hasn't stopped Southern Baptists from putting him on a pedestal. Bush lauded him when stroking for votes -- "Dr. Criswell was an important spiritual leader for America. "He was a man of deep and abiding faith who brought comfort to the thousands who heard his message of hope, love and compassion." So what he was anti-semitic and rascist. Criswell Bible College exists.

Criswell speech to the South Carolina Legislature in 1962 proclaiming that only a completely segregated America could be a truly free America. Criswell taunted foes with his famous phrase, "You sing your songs and we sing ours, have your churches and we have ours." Baptist deacon Wendell Gardner recalled that Criswell maintained guards on the door to the church to keep Negroes out.

Criswell insisted that he segregated his daughter to keep her away from the "vile and ugly" and encouraged others to follow suit. While President of the Southern Baptist Convention, Criswell introduced Richard Barrett (notorious white supremacist/neo-Nazi/KKK), who proposed a resolution which defeated a move by industrialist Owen Cooper and evangelist Billy Graham to integrate the denomination. With his resonant voice, Criswell quipped "that's my job" when Barrett proposed the pro-segregation measure, which evoked laughter, applause and approval from the 17,000 delegates assembled in New Orleans. His controversial support for Ronald Reagan against fellow "Southerner" Jimmy Carter tipped the scales toward segregationists, leading to revival of the "Solid South" in national politics.

Senator A. Willis Robertson of Virginia was an arch segregationist. He was Pat Robertson's father.

Criswell was part of the Pressler/Patterson/Rogers?Mohler/Land/Vines gang that orchestrated the takeover of the SBC and adopted Jerry Falwell as their best buddy. Criswell was part of the CNP gang, and was anti-Catholic. Adrian Rogers, fundamentalist pastor and past SBC president, recently revealed his racist beliefs when asked about slavery: `Well, I believe slavery is a much-maligned institution. If we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess'" Pressler was anti-black also, far right politics, anti"liberal", anti-moderate, CNP.



Hunt's politics were fascinating. Much in the same way that Dan Quayle and Pat Robertson's wealthy influential fathers pulled strings to keep them out of combat, Hunt did the same thing with his eldest son during World War II. Hunt was more interested in fighting Communists that Fascists. He had politics similar to Fascists. He was anti-Semitic and felt as if he had a superior gene. This is reported to be one reason why he had two secret families. Whenever his eldest son became mentally ill, biographer Jerome Tucille claims that Hunt sent out messengers offering one million dollars to a German blond woman to breed with him to produce another son. His third wife, Ruth, who "carried-on" with him secretly for years, got him into First Baptist Church. He claims to have been attracted to Criswell's political views. Criswell claimed there was "not a liberal bone in his body". Criswell, like Hargis, had preached segregationist sermons.


Biographer Harry Hurt, claims Hunt used his influence at First Baptist Dallas for political purposes. The books promoted by Hunt on "Facts Forum" often attacked Jews and promoted men like Joseph McCarthy. W. A. Criswell preached the nationally acclaimed funeral of Hunt. In the funeral message, Criswell referred to Hunt as "Mr. Golden Heart" and a man with "the wisdom of Solomon".

H. L. Hunt was a man who held a political paranoia about America. He, like McCarthy, had unfounded suspicions about liberals being behind every corner. He was so paranoid, he would not eat food that was processed in America. He feared that our food and water supply was poisoned by the Communists. This paranoid suspicion is a part of the politics of the far-right. It would be later revived and expounded on by men like Tim LaHaye, Marlin Maddoux, and Pat Robertson. Groups like this tend to thrive on the fear that a covert conspiracy is working to take over the nation.

A Dallas newspaper reporter once remarked that "Hunt could be dangerous if he weren't such a hick". Hunt saw democracy as the work of the devil and a form of Communism.

A familiar theme, we now have faux Christian leaders expounding on the evils of democracy, and outright saying "we don't want a democracy".


The more taxes a man paid, the more votes he was to get. In this utopian society Hunt promoted, people who accepted financial help from the government could not vote.

That voting idea has been resurrected also.

Many religious groups found that adopting some of the political views of the Political Right brought funding to their religious organizations. -- which only proved to continue to be true with the Scaife/Olin/Coors/Bradley/Moon gang


Some promoted the idea that they were fighting Communism through their groups and this delivered income from some in the business community.

The lessening threat of communism a/k/a Soviet Union is credited with their being
able to concentrate fully on doing away with democracy in the US, making the enemy now
"liberals", "secular humanists", "feminists", "unions", and average person's rights...


The Political Right and fundamentalism seemed to have formed a strong union going into the early sixties. They would be dealt a death blow which would come in the form of an event that would change Western Civilization. Some consider it the most moving one-day event of the Twentieth Century, the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

The Religious Right had been after Kennedy. H. L. had accused Kennedy of being weak on Communism. The week before the assassination, Hunt's programs accused Kennedy of being involved in a conspiracy to take guns away from Americans. Hunt despised Kennedy for favoring taxation of oil exploration. Hunt once fired radio program head, Rev. Poucher, for failing to criticize Kennedy's tax proposals. The day Kennedy was shot, the President read a startling ad in a Dallas newspaper taken out and partially paid for by H. L.'s son, Nelson. As reported by Time Magazine, after reading the ad, Kennedy told his wife they were going into "nut country".

The Warren Commission investigated the Hunt family after the death of the President. According to Senator Maurine Neuberger of Oregon, if anybody was responsible for Kennedy's death, it was H. L. Hunt. Even today, the Southern Baptist Hunt is considered by many conspiracy theorists, to have been involved in a secret plot to kill the President. When Ruby shot Oswald, he had some of Hunt's literature in his pocket. Investigations freed the Hunt family of any direct participation in any conspiracy. Some suggested that their fiery political rhetoric set a climate for what happened in Dallas on the eventful day, November 22, 1963.

The result of the incident was to drain the Hunts of the influence that they once had. They were forced to hide out and leave town in the months to come. The statements Hunt had made about Kennedy came back to haunt him. America entered into a new era. Johnson was able to usher in his idea of a "new Society". Civil rights legislation was passed. "Facts Forum" lost its influence and following.

Southern Baptists found that the influence of the Political Right had lost ground in the convention. Agencies were set up to promote racial cooperation and encourage the separation of church and state. So-called moderates were placed in positions of leadership. The Political Right became known as a group of fanatics. At the annual Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Norfolk in the latter seventies, a man jumped up to demonstrate against the "terrible things being promoted in textbooks" in our society. He was denounced by the convention by their lack of interest in his cause. Not to be outdone, he climbed aboard a jet liner and said he carried a bomb in his briefcase. When agents arrested him, he confided to them that it was not a literal bomb, but a literary bomb. He was speaking of the "leftist literature" he claimed to have found in public schools.

Ten years later, this type of mentality would sweep into the Southern Baptist Convention and overtake it. "Facts Forum" would be reborn in Dallas, Texas, under the name of "Point of View" and beamed across the nation by methods like H. L. Hunt used. Southern Baptist Pat Robertson, has revived the conspiracy theory. He teaches that the United Nations is working with the U.S. Congress to use public school literature to brainwash American children into worshipping the World Dictator.

Catholics, once feared by the Religious Right as a threat to American security, are now being upheld as true champions of the faith. Baptists who once went on campaigns to keep Catholics out of the White House, are now holding rallies in churches for Catholic political candidates. Baptist leaders are now promoting Catholic ideas about euthanasia and birth control. The old right is not dead, it has been rekindled as a movement.

For the Political Right to survive, it has to have a conspiracy. It found that conspiracy in the fear that "liberal" teachers had infiltrated the Southern Baptist Convention. The term "liberal" might mean something different to people who align themselves with the Coors family, Hunt family, and Pat Robertson's ministry, all of whom have been linked with Fascist groups according to documented reports.33 To a Fascist, anyone to the left of them is "liberal". One of the authors promoted on "Facts Forum" was Joseph Kemp. He wrote a book called, "HITLER WAS A LIBERAL.

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As noted, some SBC fundamentalists have come out for Exodus 2000 which is the pulling out of Christians from public schools. Tim LaHaye, an outspoken leader in the crowd, has published a book dotted with John Birch Society references attacking public education.


Ed Young held a family conference at Second Baptist and invited Holiness preachers, Marlin Maddoux and Pat Robertson to be speakers. Both men told the audience that Congress was working secretly with the United Nations to brainwash public school children to worship the Anti-Christ through public TV. Land has suggested that sending our Christian children to public schools is like sending them to the Middle-ages Children's Crusades.

Morris Chapman, something of the SBC Executive Committee, has put out articles to attack public education.

Falwell said he will not be satisfied until public education in the nation is done away with.

Tim LaHaye's wife, a noted leader in the SBC CLC, participated in a Separation Alliance in 1997. The Alliance is a national organization seeking to separate public education from the state. SBC liaison David Barton was also on the program.

SBC Fundamentalist leadership has been linked with extremists groups such as Reconstructionists, the John Birch Society and cult leader Reverend Moon. Pressler has been tied to Reconstructionists through the Firestorm Chat tapes.

Falwell and LaHaye have both been recipients of cult leader Rev. Moon's financial gifts. Ed McAteer, a member of Adrian Rogers' church, holds national conferences with John Birch Society members handing out literature -- McAteer is often seen referred to as the "father/grandfather" of this whole mess, though it's not that simple. Best description ever is that it's as tangled as, and hard to pinpoint the "head" as a "basket of snakes".

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ta_bull_rider

09/01/04 5:52 PM

#62850 RE: harrypothead #62828

I dunno, to me, Greta is just too dry. And with her legal background she seems to levitate towards the latest legal controversies. I'm so sick of Kobe/Petersen/etc. that I just can't deal with listening to it anymore.

I really do like Hannity though. He's obviously extremely partisan and doesn't try to come off as anything else, unlike O'Reilly. I think Hannity is one of the few on the right that actually debates using facts and, for that matter, isn't afraid of debate. However, he is way too gung ho on Bush, and typically never criticizes the president over his differences, which has caused me to lose some respect for him.
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yayaa

09/01/04 5:58 PM

#62855 RE: harrypothead #62828

See this POTHEAD?Fox News BURIES the networks,Wins ratings! CNN who???
FOXNEWS -- 5.2 MILLION
NBC -- 5.1 MILLION
CBS -- 4.4 MILLION
ABC -- 4.3 MILLION
MSNBC -- 1.6 MILLION
CNN -- 1.5 MILLION