Replies to post #418520 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[wall_rus]

Hey ML........couldn't pass this one up....just too good.

"the sentence of certain physical death was decreed, but not exacted but not immediately imposed, because God's plan called for them to begin the population of the earth."

That is YOUR interpretation. What the Bible says is, "thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ..."

"I am sure you meant well, but if you are going to use the language of Scripture, then let Scripture speak for itself.".......lol.

[DERBENSKI]

mlsoft

Well of course we need a logical explanation as to why they did not die from eating the fruit or that would make God a liar from the get go and be the end of story. We certainly could not have that now could we?

Have you ever considered the possibility that the fruit from the tree of knowledge may have gone though stages in the process of ripening where prior to being ripe, the fruit could have been poisonous? If so, at the time God had made the statement it would have in fact been true. There is also the possibility that the seeds themselves held poison and they did not eat the seeds or enough of them. Cyanide is found in the seeds of common fruit, including apples. Consumed in small quantities, it is harmless.

So in fact, there could be more than one explanation.

Derb

[fuagf]

Eve was punished by being condemned to pain in childbirth and to being subservient to Adam. He was punished by
being made to work hard on the ‘accursed ground’ and his struggle was to continue until he too ‘return to the ground’.

Trees and Religion

One of the most significant ways in which trees are regarded is through their association with religion. Several Races exist that revere trees, and there are some that use them as icons. Others used them to make representations of gods that they worshiped. (Davies 1988). These Totems are visible representations of ‘forces unseen’ that allow the worshipper to prostrate himself before the gods, lest they should harm or kill him. Some totems are representations of other things, carved in wood, and some are representative of trees themselves. (Mee 1958). Within this country there is evidence to show that in the past trees were regarded as sacred, and became the focal point for worship.

Some religious groups such as the Druids worshiped other gods but used trees as places of gathering for worship. They did however value the trees considerably and even planted trees to form groves in which they could worship. An article of the Druidic religion forbad them from worshiping their gods inside a temple enclosed by walls and a roof. Instead the Druids worshiped in the open air, and most of their sacred sites were on elevated ground where the heavenly bodies that they worshiped could be seen most clearly. However, for their most sacred places, the Druids sought out a more secretive location. They chose the deepest parts of woodlands and either planted trees or used existing groves as places of worship. These groves, generally of Oak, were tended and protected by the Druids, who enclosed many of them with a ditch. Gaps were left to allow them access, but these too were closely guarded. (Porteous 1928) The shape of these enclosures is significant since it takes its form from an Eastern sacred shape, the circle. This is of importance later on in religious terms as many early Christian churches took on this shape. (Dallimore 1908).

Other groups such as Pagans, it is believed, actually worshiped the trees themselves. Some of the values that Pagans historically associated with trees are held as valid by them even today. The association of trees with longevity and of fertility is well documented and this may give some base to the sacred position that some trees hold. (Davies 1988). The Pagans it is thought, used the Yew tree as the focus for their attentions. It must have been seen by Pagans as more of a mythological deity rather than a place for worship. The Yew itself has particular qualities which emanate a feeling of awe in its presence. The natural Yew forests that still cover parts of Europe are places with an intense feeling of atmosphere. In the early morning mists, such vast forests become forbidding places that can give a strange sense of unease to a modern day visitor, let alone a hapless Pagan, at the mercy of natural forces and of simpler mind and understanding.


© Tim Partridge

The enormous size of a mature Yew tree and their exceptional longevity are characteristics that lend themselves
to being revered. This coupled to the way in which the branches of an ancient Yew bend to rest on the
ground and the poisonous nature of its seeds and foliage, make it understandably worshiped.

As long ago as 1664 John Evelyn, in his book Sylva — A Discourse
of Forest Trees’ echoed the feeling of awe and wonder felt by the early pagans;

“He that in Winter should behold some of our highest hills in Surrey clad in whole woods of these last two trees (Yew and Box), for divers miles in circuit, might without the least violence to his imagination easily fancy himself transported into some new or enchanted country.”

Trees and Christianity

The Yew and other trees are also associated with Christianity. Some of the symbolism of the tree in Christianity comes from its common ancestry with Paganism. In its early stages, Christianity ran parallel to Paganism and some of the Yew trees that existed in pre-Christian times and were incorporated into the new religion may still be alive today. These Yew trees are now enclosed by Christian churches in a similar way to the ancient Druidic groves. Their circular form giving us the clue to their ancient origins. When Augustine came to Britain in 597 A.D. to bring Christianity he was given the task of bringing the Pagan faiths to an end in a sympathetic and sensitive way. He sought to convert rather than to alienate the people. He was sent by Gregory the Great who insisted that Augustine should not destroy the heathen temples, but only remove the images, wash the walls with water, erect altars and try to convert the sites to Christian churches. The raising of some ancient Yew trees on a circular mound of earth is a reflection of the circular form that these new churches took, as a remnant of that superstition. (Dallimore 1928). Indeed a Yew tree is said to have sheltered St Augustine when he arrived to bring Christianity. The tree at Stanford Bishop in Herefordshire is still living and has a girth of almost seven metres. (Wilks 1972).

Christianity also took on many other features of Paganism including candles and altars as well as the rite of initiation. It also had some of the characteristics of the so called mystery religions, such as the dependence on a saviour figure and assurance of personal salvation. Christainity also had its sites of pilgrimage and places where votive offerings could be made. (Hutton 1991). The use of trees by Pagans was embraced by Christianity, though in a different form. A tree formed the focal point for Christianity in its use at the crucifixion. Christ, the saviour figure, suffered and died upon a cross roughly hewn from a tree. The crucifixion was a significant event since their saviour gave himself to obviate the need for future sacrifice. (Huton 1991).

The events that followed the crucifixion were of greater significance. Once the resurrection and ascension had occurred, Christians were offered everything of the mystery religions as well as the hope of eternal life. The early Christians looked to nature to provide a symbolic representation of these events and the Yew tree, so closely associated with the religion from which they took much of their form provided the answer. The Yew tree with its evergreen leaves and great lifespan came to signify to Christians, eternal life and immortality respectively. (Dallimore 1908).

Some indeed infer that Christ was crucified on a Yew tree. In the ballad called “ The Leaves Of Light”, which survived in oral tradition into the Twentieth century, we find just such an assertion.

The third verse reads;

And they went down into yonder town
and sat in the Gallery,
And there they saw sweet Jesus Christ
Hanging from a big Yew tree.

(Stewart 1990).

It is a strange paradox that the life of Jesus not only ended ‘on a tree’, but was dependent on them for his work. We know that Jesus, like his father Joseph, was a carpenter. He would have had a sound knowledge of the properties of timber and known the value of trees.

The tree also forms an important part of Christian scriptures. In the earliest books of the Old Testament the Book of Genesis makes reference to two trees created and placed in the Garden Of Eden by God. The first chapter, verse 9 reads;

The Lord God made trees spring from the ground, all trees pleasant to look at and good for food;
and in the middle of the garden he set the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The latter tree is of considerable significance, since it was from this tree that Eve was fed the forbidden fruit by the Serpent. This led to the ousting of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and divine reproach from God. Eve was punished by being condemned to pain in childbirth and to being subservient to Adam. He was punished by being made to work hard on the ‘accursed ground’ and his struggle was to continue until he too ‘return to the ground’.

http://www.ancient-yew.org/treesinmythology.shtml