Replies to post #44016 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[brainlessone]

most of the world doesnt think that.

they think we are a bunch of idiots for making a big deal over something that the Army itself had already stopped and investigated. They also think the army is a bunch of idiots for allowing the press to publish the pictures. And they further think that the soldiers are idiots for taking the pictures and releasing them. And they think the press is deliberatly out to hurt its own country.

like most political hacks, the treatment of a few people is being exaggerated into "this is the barabaric treatment all prisoners get"

sort of like chalabi gets 350000 a month. no he doesnt, his party and group gets this

or Rumsfield was against the geneva conventions. that was in afganistan when the geneva conventions do not apply: to people fighting you that dont wear uniforms or represent a nation state. I read them. they dont apply


tell me which country you would like to receive good treatment in.

and then tell me that you think the entire arab world is a barbaric arrogant people because they kidnap people for years and routinely torture and kill and beat inmates, call for making people slaves and Mullahs call for the right of Saudi men to enslave infidel women.

go ahead tell me they are an arrogant and barbaric people.

maybe they will apologize.

and then maybe, there will truly be less barbarism in the middle east. because they reflected into their hearts and thought , gee if we make a big deal about what the Americans do, maybe we shouldn do it either.

[seabass]

>>>but it bothers me that the world thinks we're a barbaric, arrogant people. I think there's consequences to all of this<<<


One consequence that seems completely lost on this administration is how the global war on terror suffers when there's not a concerted global effort. We're fighting an enemy that's present in 100 countries and Bush insists that cowboy bluster and open contempt for everything not american will motivate the world to assist. Thomas Friedman says:


"I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today."



May 6, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Restoring Our Honor
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

We are in danger of losing something much more important than just the war in Iraq. We are in danger of losing America as an instrument of moral authority and inspiration in the world. I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today. I was just in Japan, and even young Japanese dislike us. It's no wonder that so many Americans are obsessed with the finale of the sitcom "Friends" right now. They're the only friends we have, and even they're leaving.

This administration needs to undertake a total overhaul of its Iraq policy; otherwise, it is courting a total disaster for us all.

That overhaul needs to begin with President Bush firing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld — today, not tomorrow or next month, today. What happened in Abu Ghraib prison was, at best, a fundamental breakdown in the chain of command under Mr. Rumsfeld's authority, or, at worst, part of a deliberate policy somewhere in the military-intelligence command of sexually humiliating prisoners to soften them up for interrogation, a policy that ran amok.

Either way, the secretary of defense is ultimately responsible, and if we are going to rebuild our credibility as instruments of humanitarian values, the rule of law and democratization, in Iraq or elsewhere, Mr. Bush must hold his own defense secretary accountable. Words matter, but deeds matter more. If the Pentagon leadership ran any U.S. company with the kind of abysmal planning in this war, it would have been fired by shareholders months ago.

I know that tough interrogations are vital in a war against a merciless enemy, but outright torture, or this sexual-humiliation-for-entertainment, is abhorrent. I also know the sort of abuse that went on in Abu Ghraib prison goes on in prisons all over the Arab world every day, as it did under Saddam — without the Arab League or Al Jazeera ever saying a word about it. I know they are shameful hypocrites, but I want my country to behave better — not only because it is America, but also because the war on terrorism is a war of ideas, and to have any chance of winning we must maintain the credibility of our ideas.

We were hit on 9/11 by people who believed hateful ideas — ideas too often endorsed by some of their own spiritual leaders and educators back home. We cannot win a war of ideas against such people by ourselves. Only Arabs and Muslims can. What we could do — and this was the only legitimate rationale for this war — was try to help Iraqis create a progressive context in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world where that war of ideas could be fought out.

But it is hard to partner with someone when you become so radioactive no one wants to stand next to you. We have to restore some sense of partnership with the world if we are going to successfully partner with Iraqis.

Mr. Bush needs to invite to Camp David the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, the heads of both NATO and the U.N., and the leaders of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria. There, he needs to eat crow, apologize for his mistakes and make clear that he is turning a new page. Second, he needs to explain that we are losing in Iraq, and if we continue to lose the U.S. public will eventually demand that we quit Iraq, and it will then become Afghanistan-on-steroids, which will threaten everyone. Third, he needs to say he will be guided by the U.N. in forming the new caretaker government in Baghdad. And fourth, he needs to explain that he is ready to listen to everyone's ideas about how to expand our force in Iraq, and have it work under a new U.N. mandate, so it will have the legitimacy it needs to crush any uprisings against the interim Iraqi government and oversee elections — and then leave when appropriate. And he needs to urge them all to join in.

Let's not lose sight of something — as bad as things look in Iraq, it is not yet lost, for one big reason: America's aspirations for Iraq and those of the Iraqi silent majority, particularly Shiites and Kurds, are still aligned. We both want Iraqi self-rule and then free elections. That overlap of interests, however clouded, can still salvage something decent from this war — if the Bush team can finally screw up the courage to admit its failures and dramatically change course.

Yes, the hour is late, but as long as there's a glimmer of hope that this Bush team will do the right thing, we must insist on it, because America's role in the world is too precious — to America and to the rest of the world — to be squandered like this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/opinion/06FRIE.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2...