Replies to post #41106 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[porter]

<I cannot see what strategic goals are met by such a state of war.>

Will you not agree that the spoken declaration postpones indefinitely the implied action?
More importantly, it did NOT stop us from buying their oil or having them over for dinner.(g)

The "double-bind" theory of giving contradictory messages and thus breaking down psychological discrimination levels, is alive and well in foreign affairs.

[aim hier]

I'm not cozy with the Saudi royal family so I'm not sure why they haven't signed a peace treaty like the Egyptians. I suspect that in part, it is because there has been no Palestinian solution.
I don't wish to appear anti-semitic, but I do feel that our government has been too pro-Israel ever since the creation of Israel. And I do feel that it is at least partly due to the many prominent influential Jews living in this country. As I stated earlier, I believe it was wrong to have taken Arab lands to give to the Israeli state. How many of us would be content if the government took our land to create a homeland for native Indians or as a reparations program to provide land for descendants of American slaves?
That is hindsight, the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. What is a just solution? I don't buy that the conflict is entirely due to the Palestinians. Certainly, there is an element among them that will never be satisfied unless all of Israel is restored to the Palestinians. And among the Israelis, there seems to be an element that wants to enlarge the territory of Israel. I've never understood how Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories was constructive to peace. Maybe someone can provide some assistance in this area. There should have been enough Jews and Arabs of good will to have fashioned a settlement by now. You would think everyone could think of their children and grandchildren's futures.
My last thought is that most people seem to have long memories. Ethnic conflicts are sometimes more than a thousand years old. Americans seem to have short memories. We fought a vicious, violent war with Germany and Japan, and suffered grievous war crimes at the hands of each. Today each are strong allies of the U.S. We won independence from England by a bloody revolution, and now enjoy great relations. Our nation was deeply divided by a civil war, and yet we seem to have gotten over it.

[Rick Louden]

Its hard to see the Saudi Royal family signing a peace treaty with Israel these days. Although I don't claim any special knowledge of the politics there, I suspect they will be lucky to still be in power 5 years from now as it is, and any positive action toward Israel, right or wrong, might accelerate their fall from power.

Zeev, I was really surprised to see Bush stand up with Sharon and draw a hard line regarding the settlements. I see absolutely no benefit and enormous harm in such a statement. Can you shed any light on the thought process there? Although I voted for Bush and have given him the benefit of the doubt in many of his decisions where I assume we don't have all the information he does, I can't figure out why he took this stand....particularly at this point in time.

Kerry or Bush.....what a choice! How about Zeev for President??? (vbg)

Rick

[langostino]

strategic goals of such a state of war?

Manipulation. Centerpiece of demagoguery.

In the Saudi "kingdom", outside the gates of the palaces of the Royal family, an unconscionably large portion of the population lives in poverty. How to keep the people from rising up and taking their frustrations out on the Royal family? Create a "hate target" via diversionary demagoguery. Which is also why the Saudi Royals permit charity telethons on national television to fund Palestinians and themselves "donate".

Ditto for the corrupt PLO and Arafat with his hundreds of millions siphoned off from "his people". They are a profit machine for him. Whip them up and then cash them in. While he stacks up the hundreds of millions, they suffer. A settlement wouldn't just bring peace, it would open the door to a massive and rapid improvement of the fortunes of "his people". Yet he stands in the way and denies them this opportunity and leaves them in deep poverty, focused on demogogically whipped up hatred. For their good? Or his own?

As of a year ago, the World Bank had 60% of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza below the poverty line of $2/day, having tripled between 2000 and 2003.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:20095849~menuPK:34463~pagePK:34370~piPK:...

We have eminent domain in this country and it works well. Why? Because the secret when taking land away from people is that they get well compensated and not left to suffer in squalor.

Take the 60% of Palestinians living on $2/day and give them some modest prosperity and you are miles down the road to peace. But is peace and prosperity really in the interest of the Saudi royals? Or Arafat? Or any of the other demagogues?