The last president tried to do away with the Constitution, even to this day they could care less about governing America, with their attempt to overthrow the last election.
Again, I am not interested in your bullshit, you want to take advantage of small points. You also forget that in the history of America we had a Civil War when the south decided to secede from the nation. Now we are dealing with that same attitude from trump and his supporters, so once again I will gladly embrace another Civil War until trump and his supporters are in jail answering for the crimes against America.
You keep forgetting that trump and his supporters already tried to overthrow the last election, that is not a disagreement on policy, and it has nothing to do with America being a republic, or a democracy.
The American people elected President Biden over trump in the last election, and until their is another election, that is how the American government works. The people elect their government.
In the meantime trump and his supporters did not want to live by the laws governing an American election, now they have to answer to those crimes. It has nothing to do with your last message.
Well said....and needed to be said on this board. Just like I do not welcome some of the stupid comments by some MAGA types, I am sure many Democrats would not embrace many of the comments and responses posted here by the "progressive left".
I, too, bristle when I hear the word "Democracy". There is little difference between mob--ocracy and democracy.
Rule by law--a Constitutional Republic-- is what we are supposed to have. Not rule by majority--which is a formula for the minority not having a voice.
livefree_ordie, Your efforts continue to contain masses of conservative oriented misinformation.
Take your suggestion Israel suffers from having to face it's history in it's totality.
"I say we should be like the Israeli Nation, they have to suffer still today the consequences when anyone brings up Adolph Hitler and his destruction of their peoplse in WWII. They have learned to suck it up and move on from it and grow a backbone in today's world you will see no other nation conquer them because they have learned to nip things in the bud before they get screwed again by some other maniac, you might support."
Actually nothing could be farther from the truth. Israel is as guilty of sanitizing their history as any. And much more than many. Take textbooks for one example:
--- The Nakba in Israeli History Textbooks: Between Memory and History by Avner Ben-Amos DOI : 10.48248/issn.2037-741X/1303
ABSTRACT The aim of the present article is to delineate the way the Palestinian Nakba (“catastrophe” in Arabic), which was one of the consequences of the 1948 War, has been portrayed in Israeli history textbooks since the establishment of the State of Israel until the present. Based on the assumption that all history textbooks can be situated between the poles of history and memory, the article examines three main factors that determine the actual place of textbooks: academic history, the dominant ideology within the ministry of education and pedagogical norms. An examination of history textbooks that have referred to the 1948 War shows that the entire time span can be divided into three periods: first period, from the late 1950s to the mid-1970s, in which the official Zionist view of the past prevailed; second, intermediary period, between the mid-1970s and the late 1990s, in which the official Zionist view was slightly modified; and a third period, between the late 1990s and the late 2010s, in which the textbooks became diversified – some presented the official Zionist version, while others presented an alternative, critical version. https://www.quest-cdecjournal.it/the-nakba-in-israeli-history-textbooks-between-memory-and-history/ ---
There is too much rubbish in your latest there to touch on it all. So just two more points this time - yet again. To your.
"So you speak of American Democracy which involves our ENTIRE HISTORY not pieces of it as others want to do with it, but the entirety of it as a whole good, bad or indifferent. Leanr to deal with these things that are hurtful in our history, or seek professional help when these things bother you. I for one do not know of anyone still alive today that was during the Civil War times. So to be bothered by something no one here lived with at all today is mental illness and they should seek professional help."
The taking down of statues for example is not wiping mention of those people. It is stopping the public, uncritical adulation of those individuals. Would you have statues of past KKK leaders in Harlem parks?
To your repeated, old and tired here, denial of American democracy:
"By the way we are actually a Constitutional Republic not a Democracy. And I suppoprt America fully and all its History not just pieces I like about it as I owe it to all of our forethathers and foremothers to carry on that legacy, not destroy it or else ti will be repeated by some dolt known as Biden."
OUCH. Now you are full-blown into repetitive conservative troll mode. We debunk yours. You ignore and repeat. This post is to one which is to you, so you really should have read if.
Repeat excerpts of --- hap, ‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument --- "livefree_ordie, Even much better --- Is The U.S. a Democracy or a Republic? [...] What you fail to understand is that even though you say you support the constitution in fact you support a perversion of it. In fact your representatives could vote to fairly tax windfall profits to give back to the people some of the excess profit scammed from them by overly greedy individuals. [...] When founding thinkers such as James Madison spoke of democracy, they were usually referring to direct democracy, what Madison frequently labeled “pure” democracy. Madison made the distinction between a republic and a direct democracy exquisitely clear in “Federalist No. 14 .. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed14.asp ”: “In a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, will be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.” Both a democracy and a republic were popular forms of government: Each drew its legitimacy from the people and depended on rule by the people. The crucial difference was that a republic relied on representation, while in a “pure” democracy, the people represented themselves.
At the time of the founding, a narrow vision of the people prevailed. Black people were largely excluded from the terms of citizenship, and slavery was a reality, even when frowned upon, that existed alongside an insistence on self-government. What this generation considered either a democracy or a republic is troublesome to us insofar as it largely granted only white men the full rights of citizens, albeit with some exceptions. America could not be considered a truly popular government until the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which commanded equal citizenship for Black Americans. Yet this triumph was rooted in the founding generation’s insistence on what we would come to call democracy.
[...]
Yet while dependent on the people, the Constitution did not embrace simple majoritarian democracy. The states, with unequal populations, got equal representation in the Senate. The Electoral College also gave the states weight as states in selecting the president. But the centrality of states, a concession to political reality, was balanced by the House of Representatives, where the principle of representation by population prevailed, and which would make up the overwhelming number of electoral votes when selecting a president.
But none of this justified minority rule, which was at odds with the “republican principle.” Madison’s design remained one of popular government precisely because it would require the building of political majorities over time. As Madison argued in “Federalist No. 63 .. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed63.asp ,” “The cool and deliberate sense of the community ought, in all governments, and actually will, in all free governments, ultimately prevail over the views of its rulers.”
[The SCOTUS decision on abortion clearly is not consistent with that Founder desire. ]
Alexander Hamilton, one of Madison’s co-authors of The Federalist Papers, echoed this argument. Hamilton made the case .. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-01-02-0162 .. for popular government and even called it democracy: “A representative democracy, where the right of election is well secured and regulated & the exercise of the legislative, executive and judiciary authorities, is vested in select persons, chosen really and not nominally by the people, will in my opinion be most likely to be happy, regular and durable.”
The American experiment, as advanced by Hamilton and Madison, sought to redeem the cause of popular government against its checkered history. Given the success of the experiment by the standards of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, we would come to use the term democracy as a stand-in for representative democracy, as distinct from direct democracy.
Consider that President Abraham Lincoln, facing a civil war, which he termed the great test of popular government, used constitutional republic and democracy synonymously, eloquently casting the American experiment as government of the people, by the people, and for the people. And whatever the complexities of American constitutional design, Lincoln insisted .. https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99sep/9909linc1staddress.htm , “the rule of a minority, as a permanent arrangement, is wholly inadmissible.” Indeed, Lincoln offered a definition of popular government that can guide our understanding of a democracy—or a republic—today: “A majority, held in restraint by constitutional checks, and limitations, and always changing easily, with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people.” https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=169714968
livefree_ordie Your responses are not only in the main untrue, but they also stand as stark evidence of just why links for such are required by such as you. I do appreciate the work you put into them, but they truly suck. They are mostly misguided and misinformation. Take your first bits (in your bold): https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=169727087
Bottom line. livefree_ordie, that while having some appreciation for the effort you put in, your repeated conservative bullshit is not appreciated.
In poll after poll, about 70% of Republicans say they don’t think Joe Biden is the legitimate winner of the 2020 election.
Flags supporting President Donald Trump and one that reads "Stop the Steal" are displayed during a protest rally, Monday, Jan. 4, 2021, at the Farm Boy Drive-In restaurant near Olympia, Wash. (AP Photo/Ted S. Warren)
By: Jon Greenberg June 16, 2022
Former President Donald Trump has made the “stolen” 2020 election the centerpiece of his post-White House political life. Virtually every statement he sends out invokes the false theme.
The polling shows it has been effective, not just with the crowd that stormed the Capitol on his behalf on Jan. 6, 2021, but with members of the Republican Party almost a year and a half later.
The multiple recounts and audits that confirmed Joe Biden’s win have changed little. With remarkable consistency, a scant one-quarter of Republican voters tell pollsters that Biden won legitimately. That was the view they shared in the spring of 2021, and the fraction remains about the same today.
Roughly 70% of Republicans don’t see Biden as the legitimate winner. Surveys by different pollsters show virtually the same results, with the exception of a Washington Post/University of Maryland poll that dropped it to 61%.
IMAGE
Trump’s insistence that he won the 2020 election became the target of the House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack. In the second of a series of hearings revealing what it has found, the committee showed video of Trump insiders describing how, from the earliest days, the conviction grew that Trump had failed to get enough votes.
Campaign manager Bill Stepien told investigators ..
.. that by Nov. 5, two days after the election, they saw Biden take the lead. Stepien and other top campaign staff went to Trump.
“We told him, the group that went over there, (we) outlined my belief on the chances for success at this point, and we pegged it at 5%, maybe 10%,” Stepien said.
The situation, Stepien said, was “very, very bleak.”
Acting Deputy Attorney General Richard Donoghue was one of many officials who tried to counter Trump’s claims of fraud.
“I said something to the effect of, ‘Sir, we’ve done dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews. The major allegations are not supported by the evidence developed. We’ve looked at Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Nevada. We are doing our job. Much of the info you are getting is false,’” Donoghue told investigators.
Focus groups have shown that Trump supporters weren’t swayed by specific pieces of evidence that rebutted his claims.
Sarah Longwell, executive director of Republicans for the Rule of Law, has conducted regular focus groups with fans of Trump.
“For many of Trump’s voters, the belief that the election was stolen is not a fully formed thought,” Longwell wrote April 18 for The Atlantic. “They know something nefarious occurred, but can’t easily explain how or why. What’s more, they’re mystified and sometimes angry that other people don’t feel the same.”
Trump, Longwell wrote, primed his backers to disbelieve the official results. Months before the vote, he linked mail-in ballots to fraud. On Election Night in many states, mail-in results come later than in-person tabulations. Longwell said that timing raised suspicions.
“A woman from Georgia told me, ‘When I went to bed, Trump was so in the lead and then (I got) up and he’s not in the lead. I mean, that’s crazy,’” Longwell said.
Other interviews with Trump voters found similar attitudes. Researchers at the University of Texas at Austin’s Center for Media Engagement .. https://mediaengagement.org/research/understanding-election-fraud-beliefs/ .. spent time with 56 people who believed that Trump most likely won the election. Professor Talia Stroud said that contrary to popular assumptions, “the people we spoke with were not conspiracists isolated in right-wing echo chambers.”
These voters said they got their news from a variety of outlets, and wound up with multiple theories of how the vote was manipulated. Stroud said the multiple reasons made it harder to change their minds.
“It is one thing to dismiss one misleading claim, but countering many different claims across many different people is much more challenging,” Stroud said. “If I have five reasons that the election could have been fraudulent, and you dismiss one of them, there are four others waiting in the wings.”
Personal experience also reinforced belief. Political scientist Lilliana Mason at Johns Hopkins University told us that maps of the election results show that many Republican voters live in communities that are almost entirely red.
“It seems ludicrous to them that Biden could have won, because they’ve never heard of a single person who voted for him,” Mason said.
Political scientist Alexander Theodoridis, associate director of the University of Massachusetts-Amherst poll, said partisan polarization makes agreement on the election results even harder to achieve.
“Partisans view the other side as morally bankrupt and capable of anything,” Theodoridis said. “This makes it nearly impossible to correct even the most egregious pieces of misinformation.”
Not only does accurate information fail to persuade, Longwell said the effort can backfire.
“A woman from Arizona told me, ‘I think what convinced me more that the election was fixed was how vehemently they have said it wasn’t,’” Longwell said.
The Civil War is a part of our history in much the same way that WWII was. But we don't erect monuments to Hitler or his troops. We don't name our military bases after Nazi generals. And we sure as fuck don't fly the fucking Nazi flag...although you will often see it alongside the Confederate and Trump flags.
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