Can people vaccinated against COVID-19 still spread the coronavirus?
"conix, Ron DeSantis and the worst fallacy about vaccine skepticism [...] We on Tornado Alley often speak of a common good, and the fact concern for it seems to be lacking on your conservative side. This article goes to it and one of your favorite presidential prospects. Points such as the unvaccinated adding to the possibility of new variants, by extending the reach of the virus's freedom to move, we have covered repeatedly on this board. [...] The reality for anyone who has truly digested the data and the realities of vaccination campaigns or a pandemic, though, is clear: It does have a substantial impact. And while vaccines offer very significant protection, there is a huge collective and even personal interest in getting the vast majority of Americans vaccinated — and not just for the unvaccinated people’s own good. P - The first reason is its impact on the course of the virus. We’ve already seen how variants — particularly the delta variant — can emerge that lessen the efficacy of the vaccines. Studies have repeatedly shown this is a greater problem when the unvaccinated continue to spread a virus. One prominent infectious-disease expert has likened the unvaccinated to “variant factories .. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html .” [...] There’s also the fact that, however much vaccinated people are protected — and studies show the vaccines still having a very significant impact in preventing serious cases .. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/18/covid-vaccine-effectiveness/?itid=lk_inline_manual_18 , even as overall “breakthrough” infections rise — it’s never going to be 100 percent. So even as it’s very rare for a vaccinated person to fall seriously ill or die, the odds of that increase with unvaccinated people spreading the virus and allowing it to mutate."
May 25, 2021 10.13pm AEST Author Sanjay Mishra Project Coordinator & Staff Scientist, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Vanderbilt University
* Vaccines can be great at preventing you from getting sick, while at the same time not necessarily stopping you from getting infected or spreading the germ.
* Preliminary evidence seems to suggest the COVID-19 vaccines make it less likely someone who’s vaccinated will transmit the coronavirus, but the proof is not yet ironclad.
* Unvaccinated people should still be diligent about mask-wearing, physical distancing and other precautions against the coronavirus.
When the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention changed its guidelines about mask-wearing on May 13, 2021, plenty of Americans were left a little confused. Now anyone who is fully vaccinated can participate in indoor and outdoor activities, large or small, without wearing a mask or physical distancing.
Anthony Fauci, chief medical adviser to President Biden, said the new guideline is “based on the evolution of the science” and “serves as an incentive” for the almost two-thirds of Americans who are not yet fully vaccinated to go ahead and get the shot.
But some people cannot be vaccinated because of underlying conditions. Others with weakened immune systems, from cancer or medical treatments, may not be fully protected by their vaccinations. Children aged 12 to 15 became eligible for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine only on May 10, 2021. And no COVID-19 vaccines are yet authorized for the nearly 50 million children in the U.S. younger than 12.
As restrictions are lifted and people start to leave their masks at home, some people worry: Can you catch COVID-19 from someone who’s vaccinated?
Vaccines don’t always prevent infection
Researchers had hoped to design safe COVID-19 vaccines that would prevent at least half of the people vaccinated from getting COVID-19 symptoms.
Fortunately,the vaccines have vastly outperformed expectations. For example, in 6.5 million residents of Israel, aged 16 years and older, the Pfizer–BioNTech mRNA COVID-19 vaccine was found to be 95.3% effective after both shots. Within two months, among the 4.7 million fully vaccinated, the detectable infections fell by 30-fold. Similarly in California and Texas, only 0.05% of fully vaccinated health care workers tested positive for COVID-19.
Vaccine developers often hope that, in addition to preventing illness, their vaccines will achieve “sterilizing immunity,” where the vaccination blocks the germ from even being able to get into the body at all. This sterilizing immunity means someone who’s vaccinated will neither catch the virus nor transmit it further. For a vaccine to be effective, though, it doesn’t need to prevent the germ from infecting an immunized person.
The Salk inactivated polio vaccine, for instance, does not completely stop polio virus from growing in the human gut. But it is extremely effective at preventing the crippling disease because it triggers antibodies that block the virus from infecting the brain and spinal cord. Good vaccines provide effective and durable training for the body’s immune system, so when it actually encounters the disease-causing pathogen, it’s ready to mount an optimum response.
When it comes to COVID-19, immunologists are still figuring out what they call the “correlates of protection,” factors that predict just how protected someone is against the coronavirus. Researchers believe that an optimum amount of “neutralizing antibodies,” the type that not only bind the virus but also prevent it from infecting, are sufficient to fend off repeat infections. Scientists are also still assessing the durability of immunity that the COVID-19 vaccines are providing and where in the body it’s working.
Vaccination can mean far fewer infections, but it’s not clear it will stop transmission by those who are vaccinated. Ethan Miller/Getty Images News
Can a vaccinated person spread coronavirus?
Immunologists expect vaccines that protect against viral illnesses to also reduce transmission of the virus after vaccination. But it’s actually tricky to figure out for sure if vaccinated people are not spreading the germ.
COVID-19 poses a particular challenge because people with asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic infections can spread the disease – and insufficient contact tracing and testing mean those without symptoms are rarely detected. Some scientists estimate that the number of asymptomatic COVID-19 infections in the overall population could be 3 to 20 times higher than the number of confirmed cases. Research suggests that undocumented cases of COVID-19 in people who either were asymptomatic or experienced very mild disease could be responsible for up to 86% of all infections, though other studies contradict the high estimates.
In one study, the CDC tested volunteer health care personnel and other front-line workers at eight U.S. locations for SARS-CoV-2 infections weekly for three months, regardless of symptoms or vaccination status. The researchers found that fully immunized participants were 25 times less likely to test positive for COVID-19 than were those who were unvaccinated. Findings like this imply that if vaccinated people are so well protected from getting infected at all, they are also unlikely to spread the virus. But without contact tracing to track transmission in a larger population, it’s impossible to know if the assumption is true.
What we know for sure is that if someone does get sick with COVID-19 after vaccination, in what is called a “breakthrough infection,” symptoms will be milder.Studies have found that people who tested positive for COVID-19 after getting just their first vaccine dose had lower levels of virus in their bodies than unvaccinated people who tested positive. The researchers believe the decreased viral load hints that vaccinated people who do contract the virus will be less infectious because they will have much less virus that could be spread to others.
A preprint study which has not yet been peer-reviewed suggests that the Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccine can produce coronavirus-fighting antibodies in the oral and nasal fluid. Since that’s where SARS-CoV-2 makes its entry .. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.ppat.1009037 , antibodies in the mouth and nose should block the virus from getting into the body, effectively providing “sterilizing immunity.” This would also mean vaccinated people probably wouldn’t spread the virus through respiratory droplets.
These bits of evidence are promising. But without more studies, scientists cannot yet conclude that COVID-19 vaccines really do protect against all transmission. Studies attempting to directly answer this question through contact tracing are just beginning: Researchers will track COVID-19 infections among vaccinated and unvaccinated volunteers and their close contacts.
CDC guidance still calls for those who are not yet vaccinated to mask up and maintain physical distance. Education Images/Universal Images Group via Getty Images
Protection and prevention go hand in hand
Vaccines help slow down the spread of an infectious disease by breaking the chain of infection. Those who are infected eventually have fewer and fewer unprotected people to pass the virus on to. This is how a vaccine increases herd immunity – susceptible and not-yet-immunized people are surrounded by a “herd” of people who have become immune, thanks to vaccination or previous infection. But studies suggest that, for a combination of biological and social reasons, vaccination alone is unlikely to achieve herd immunity against COVID-19 and fully contain the coronavirus.
In fact, vaccination alone can take a long time to eradicate any disease. Even diseases that are nearly “eliminated” – such as chickenpox, measles and pertussis – can resurface with waning immunity and declining vaccine rates.
The recent outbreak of infections among the vaccinated New York Yankees shows that vaccinated people not only can still get infected, they might also transmit the coronavirus to close contacts. Highly tested groups, such as professional sports teams, spotlight the fact that mild, asymptomatic infections among the vaccinated in the general population might actually be more frequent than reported. A similar outbreak in airport workers in Singapore shows that, even among the fully vaccinated, new and more infectious variants can spread fast.
The CDC’s relaxed guidelines on masking are meant to reassure vaccinated people that they are safe from serious illness. And they are. But the picture is less clear-cut for the unvaccinated who interact with them. Until near herd immunity against COVID-19 is achieved, and clear evidence accumulates that vaccinated people do not spread the virus, I and many epidemiologists believe it is better to avoid situations where there are chances to get infected. Vaccination coupled with continued masking and social distancing is still an effective way to stay safer.
The Joe Rogan COVID Experience Is Following Its Deranged, Destined Course
"conix, Ron DeSantis and the worst fallacy about vaccine skepticism "So, it is your COMPASSION..." We on Tornado Alley often speak of a common good, and the fact concern for it seems to be lacking on your conservative side. This article goes to it and one of your favorite presidential prospects. Points such as the unvaccinated adding to the possibility of new variants, by extending the reach of the virus's freedom to move, we have covered repeatedly on this board."
Just asking questions, never learning a single thing.
By Justin Peters Sept 01, 202110:45 PM
No worries here. Jasen Vinlove/USA Today Sports/Reuters
Joe Rogan has made a very lucrative career in comedy and podcasting out of surfacing irrational cultural suspicions: that the moon landings might not have been real .. https://slate.com/technology/2007/02/joe-rogan-me-and-penn-and-the-moon-hoax-take-iii.html , that the World Trade Center’s Building 7 might have been downed by a controlled demolition .. https://jrescribe.com/transcripts/p441.html#t-00:20:41 , that woke liberals in the media and the tech industry might be conspiring to stifle the speech of the worst-faith pundits of our time. In recent months, he has used his wildly popular interview show, The Joe Rogan Experience, to surface illiterate observations on how otherwise healthy young people might not need to take the COVID-19 vaccines, and how vaccine passports and mandates might be bringing the United States “closer to dictatorship.”
Rogan might have a problem now.
Given everything he’s said, and given the millions of listeners he’s said it to, there’s a whiff of inevitability to be found in Rogan’s admission on Wednesday .. https://www.instagram.com/tv/CTSsA8wAR2-/?utm_medium=copy_link .. that he contracted COVID-19 after performing a bunch of stand-up shows in Florida last month—last month being one of the literal worst times to perform comedy shows in Florida since there was a Florida. Rogan, who has no problem sharing almost everything else he thinks and does, hasn’t said all year whether he’s been vaccinated, and in the video sharing his positive COVID result, he didn’t mention ever getting the jab. Instead, there was nothing but the same familiar frustration to be found in his explanation that one of the medicines he took to combat his infection was ivermectin, the horse dewormer that has gained credence in certain circles as a COVID-19 treatment explicitly because every credible medical authority that it has absolutely no value as a COVID-19 treatment. (Ivermectin also has other, non–horse-deworming applications, but many of the people who are using it as a back-door COVID treatment are seeking out the agricultural version of the drug.) Rogan said he also took monoclonal antibodies .. https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/joe-rogan-announces-he-has-covid-19-says-he-felt-run-down-day-after-tampa-show/ .. and other treatments that one generally would not need if one had been taking vaccination seriously.
The fact that the medical establishment is broadly united in its position that there’s no evidence ivermectin works to treat COVID is exactly why so many of the most gullible people in America believe it does work to treat COVID. And it’s largely because of people like Rogan that these people continue to think the best way to own the libs is to endanger their own health by taking bullshit remedies while scoffing at the real ones. To be fair, Rogan is not on the same place on the COVID-vaccine-misinformation spectrum as many avowed skeptics are. He has acknowledged that people who are vulnerable should get vaccinated, and he’s said that he does think, “for the most part, it’s safe to get vaccinated.” The wiggle room of “for the most part” is where Rogan makes his money.
Rogan, whom I assessed for Slate in 2019 .. https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/joe-rogans-podcast-is-an-essential-platform-for-freethinkers-who-hate-the-left.html , is one of the world’s most popular, most prominent, and certainly one of its best compensated podcast hosts. In May 2020, the streaming service Spotify acquired TheJoe Rogan Experience and licensed its archives for a sum reportedly in excess of $100 million. Rogan has used his new institutional platform the same way he used his old one: to talk ad nauseam about comedy, drugs, mixed martial arts, conspiracies, suppressive elites, and the perils of wokeism.
Since his days as a supporting player on the sitcom NewsRadio, Rogan has cultivated the persona of an extremely open-minded soul willing to entertain all sorts of theories regardless of their surface validity. In many ways, this trait can make his podcast a wide-ranging and entertaining listen. But listen long enough to Rogan and the shaggy dorm-room conspiracism eventually stops being funny. While he presents himself as heterodox and claims that he “goes left” on pretty much everything except guns, there’s actually a pretty narrow band of theories that Rogan is willing to entertain, and most of them can be construed to disparage the purported excesses of the P.C. left.
While listening to hundreds of hours of his show, I was struck that the way Rogan “just asks questions” is pretty darn similar to the ways the evening hosts on Fox News “just ask questions.” In both cases, the questions are generally framed not to draw out truth but to lead audiences toward predetermined conclusions—broadly, that elitist cultural and political authorities are untrustworthy precisely because they are elitist authorities. Indeed, Rogan’s shtick differs from the sorts of things you’d hear on Fox News only insofar as his persona is gentler and his shows last longer and are less overtly political. But Joe Rogan and Sean Hannity are peddling the same sorts of cultural resentments and suspicions to similar sorts of post-rational audiences, with the main difference being generational.
Another similarity between Joe Rogan and Fox News: Both have historically spent a lot of time advertising dubiously effective products and supplements. When I dove into Rogan’s podcast archives, I was surprised to see just how deeply enmeshed Rogan was in biohacking culture. He was always talking about some new regimen of supplements he was taking to increase brain function or improve fitness. (Not surprisingly, these sorts of products also paid to advertise on the show.) At any given moment, it’s fair to presume that Rogan is 50 percent supplement and 50 percent bullshit, and at times it can be difficult to distinguish one side from the other.
Rogan is an idiot—he will say as much about himself—but he is not stupid. He knows where his money comes from, and he knows that his popularity is derived from his continued willingness to say the things that the mainstream media won’t say, even if the reason why the mainstream media won’t say those things is because they are simply wrong. So just as it’s the most predictable thing in the world that Joe Rogan would come down with COVID, it’s also predictable that he’d take ivermectin as a response to COVID. It’s a perverse form of virtue signaling for dark-magical thinkers. There is no poetry to it, and there is certainly no justice. There is only a rich talking head who, in line with the prevailing trends of our awful era, will learn nothing from his COVID experience other than that which he already knew: There are no consequences for anything anymore, so you might as well get rich and stay that way by asking all the wrong questions.
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