Are you sure that VSPC paid VGREF $3 in cash for those shares? My point however is that VGREF does not have a large enough shareholder base that would allow someone to sell quickly if he or she wanted to. Remember it is not what the company is worth but what people are willing to pay for it. My broker told me years ago that "The Street" knows. Right now it is saying .2188. I might be a buyer at .013. As far as the toxic financing as you call it, what was Karls options?