michael - I have found it impossible to have an intelligent discussion with a Demonrat. If you completely refute a statement they make they will put it on the back burner and pull it out later as though it is a new thought. Their reasoning is circular and so on and on it goes. I think convincing a Demonrat of the truth, no matter how obvious, is hopeless. The only hope we have is to out number them. They cannot be taught anything once they are locked into the Demonrat spin. After years of dealing with them I am convinced that liberalism, by its many names, is a genetic defect. I can find no other explanation for it. There have been studies done that point to this being true. You can google it and find the information. When the truth is so blatantly obvious and provable but yet they "just cannot see it" there must be a genetic defect that is the reason.