Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[brainlessone]

it is not a vicious cycle. that is the element I reject, and all arguments which employ this technique are not useful.

Very carefully examine why you think it is a vicious cycle.

Then read Gertrude Bells diaries from 1919.

list what the stated goals of the "other side" are.
ask if they are desireable, possible, or worthy.