Foreign Correspondence

[Amaunet]

I am loving this, it beats going out for a loaf of bread and disappearing.

Here is a discussion on something similar.

-Am

Time doesn't exist...?
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rectangleboy03-13-2005, 04:41 PM
Considering the fact that humans made up the concept of time, basing it off of our own planet, would it be justifiable to say that time did not exist? Given that evolution is true, there couldn't have been a concept of time at the beginning of the universe, because there were no people to create the idea of time. If you really think about it, time is something that's pretty new, considering the idea that humans, with cognitive ability, only came into existence about 100,000 years ago.
My question is, is this a valid idea, or has time just always existed? Everything we see is really what we make of it. Thus, throughout the universe, time really isn't a constant, because different planets have different days, years, etc.
But in all that I've read about theories of the beginning of the universe, they're always centered around the beginning of time. There's always an age for everything, but, maybe, could time not exist? Could it be some sort of concept that we, as humans, cannot live without, like, for many of us, God? Or is it one of those things in the universe that have to exist, like gravity? Pretty much, my question is, is this a valid idea, or am I just some rambling idiot?
Trevor

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Tormod03-13-2005, 05:16 PM
No, you're not a rambling idiot, but you are confusing physical time with perceived (or social) time. The days, minutes etc that have been invented by various cultures (and often differed) are *measurements* of time. They did not invent time itself.

It makes no sense to say we could live without time. Without time the universe would not work.

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OpenMind503-13-2005, 06:24 PM
I disagree Tormod,
I don't think time exsits, and i thin kwe can exsit without it.

Thing exsit and happen in cycles. But we as humans have created "time" (Measurment) to measure the exsitance of somthing in numbers that we can understand.

These are my thoughts...Yell at me if you wish.

Op5

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C1ay03-13-2005, 06:30 PM
I disagree Tormod,
I don't think time exsits, and i thin kwe can exsit without it.

Thing exsit and happen in cycles. But we as humans have created "time" (Measurment) to measure the exsitance of somthing in numbers that we can understand.

These are my thoughts...Yell at me if you wish.

Op5

Would you agree that our planet spins on it's axis over and over? For any revolution would you agree that there have been revolutions before it and after it? Without time, what would you say has elapsed from one revolution to the next? With or without humans, would you agree that something has elapsed regardless of what we call it?

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lindagarrette03-13-2005, 06:36 PM
No, you're not a rambling idiot, but you are confusing physical time with perceived (or social) time. The days, minutes etc that have been invented by various cultures (and often differed) are *measurements* of time. They did not invent time itself.

It makes no sense to say we could live without time. Without time the universe would not work.Yes. Time measures the interval between events. The beginning of the universe was the first event thus the start of time. When two events occur simultaneously, they occur at the same TIME. We cannot possibly describe movement without the time reference.

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OpenMind503-13-2005, 06:39 PM
Would you agree that our planet spins on it's axis over and over? For any revolution would you agree that there have been revolutions before it and after it? Without time, what would you say has elapsed from one revolution to the next? With or without humans, would you agree that something has elapsed regardless of what we call it?

I agree agree somthing has happened...but time is somthing we made as a measurement...its not a flowing thing that we can tap into and travel in. Things happen, I agree, they exsist as i said.

Op5

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C1ay03-13-2005, 07:50 PM
I agree agree somthing has happened...but time is somthing we made as a measurement...its not a flowing thing that we can tap into and travel in. Things happen, I agree, they exsist as i said.

Op5

So, would you say that some things happen before other things and that some things happen after other things? Conversely, would you say that all things happen simultaneously? Is there a period of something between events that do not happen simultaneously?

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rectangleboy03-14-2005, 12:44 AM
I always pictured time as a river, and I'm sure most others have. But what if time was like a pool of water, and stuff just happened? I guess you can say something can't exist until someone, or something makes it exist, right? Then did time exist during, or around, the big bang? Or is time eternal and infinite? Can time be eternal? Or is there a beginning to that too? If so, was there anything before time? Maybe there weren't any events before time, making time unneeded. What Tormod said earlier about the universe not existing without time, would kinda' be like what people say about God. Just like God explains what started everything, time explains everythign else that happens.

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C1ay03-14-2005, 07:17 AM
I always pictured time as a river, and I'm sure most others have. But what if time was like a pool of water, and stuff just happened? I guess you can say something can't exist until someone, or something makes it exist, right? Then did time exist during, or around, the big bang? Or is time eternal and infinite? Can time be eternal? Or is there a beginning to that too? If so, was there anything before time? Maybe there weren't any events before time, making time unneeded. What Tormod said earlier about the universe not existing without time, would kinda' be like what people say about God. Just like God explains what started everything, time explains everythign else that happens.

It's really more like this. Take notice of the fact that our planet makes quite a number of revolutions on it's own axis for each revolution about the Earth made by the moon. Now is doesn't matter if you invent some term called days to label those revolutions or not, they still happen. Time is that variable we use to calculate the velocity of that fluid motion. Fluid motion is happening throughout the universe. Some of that motions leads other motion, so of it follows. Some motion is faster than other motion. Even if we did not exist at all this would be the case in the universe. Time is. It does not rely on us and we did not invent it. FWIW, it is not an equivalent factor to the existence of God, there is no doubt that time exists, it is part of the fabric of the universe.

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lindagarrette03-14-2005, 04:28 PM
Time is that variable we use to calculate the velocity of that fluid motion. Fluid motion is happening throughout the universe. Some of that motions leads other motion, so of it follows. Another aspect of time is that it is not discrete. There is no "moment" of time. The present is gone as soon as it arrives.

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Tormod03-14-2005, 04:37 PM
I disagree Tormod,
I don't think time exsits, and i thin kwe can exsit without it.

Thing exsit and happen in cycles. But we as humans have created "time" (Measurment) to measure the exsitance of somthing in numbers that we can understand.

These are my thoughts...Yell at me if you wish.

Op5

Heck you know I'm not going to yell at you but like C1ay points out you make the same mistake as the original poster: our measurement of time in human standards is a culturalt, human-invented thing. The passage of time is a very real fundamental basis for our universe and has nothing to do with is.

Time is a mysterious concept and nobody has been able to pinpoint exactly what it is. But it is NOT the ticking of the clock - that is subjective time measurement.

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starrmtn00103-14-2005, 06:20 PM
Don't confuse the issue with rhetoric. Simply put, time exists within it's own framework.

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rectangleboy03-14-2005, 10:41 PM
so, given that time is just there, can it exist without the universe? It kinda' seems that way, but does time still have a beginning? I know no one may really have an answer, but what are your ideas?

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keith03-14-2005, 11:39 PM
Time was an invention first used for navigation and converted ot rule human labor during the industral revulution

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C1ay03-15-2005, 05:08 AM
so, given that time is just there, can it exist without the universe? It kinda' seems that way, but does time still have a beginning? I know no one may really have an answer, but what are your ideas?

Yes, time would exist without the universe. We could never know the answer for sure about a beginning but I believe it goes back infinitely and will go on for eternity.

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starrmtn00103-15-2005, 06:49 AM
Time is a good speculation subject of "food for thought." But the "food" needs some seasoning. Maybe a little thyme . . .? :D

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Nismoskyline03-15-2005, 08:03 AM
Time is created by gravity right? If you are closer to a strong gravitational field and say you figure out a way to send a message to someone in a weak gravitational field. They will recieve that message at a very slow rate. Or if you do the opposite(send the message from a low gravitational field to a higher one) They will recieve that message at a faster rate. So without gravity is there actually time? I hope I dont sound to dumb on this subject :shrug: "We know exactly what gravity does, and we can predict its effect on things with great accuracy, yet we can't say with any certainty, what it is."

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Tormod03-15-2005, 08:12 AM
Don't confuse the issue with rhetoric. Simply put, time exists within it's own framework.

Right. Don't confuse the issue with rhetoric.

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Tormod03-15-2005, 08:14 AM
Time is created by gravity right?

No, there is no reason to believe that (unless you have some information about it you'd like to share). We know however that gravity can have an impact on the passage of time.

"We know exactly what gravity does, and we can predict its effect on things with great accuracy, yet we can't say with any certainty, what it is."

Exactly.

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C1ay03-15-2005, 08:27 AM
Time is created by gravity right?

Time is not created by or dependant on anything. It is truly an independant variable.

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Nismoskyline03-15-2005, 09:21 AM
Thank you for stating what the facts really are. Im only 17 and dont know very much, as you can probably tell. I have a feeling I will learn mass amounts of information from this forum though. :hihi:

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lindagarrette03-16-2005, 08:36 AM
so, given that time is just there, can it exist without the universe? It kinda' seems that way, but does time still have a beginning? I know no one may really have an answer, but what are your ideas? According to the Standard Model of the Universe (Big Bang Theory) there was nothing before the universe began, not time, no space, nothing. String Theory proposes other solutions but it's still in early research.

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pgrmdave03-16-2005, 10:36 AM
I don't think time exsits, and i thin kwe can exsit without it.

Thing exsit and happen in cycles. But we as humans have created "time" (Measurment) to measure the exsitance of somthing in numbers that we can understand.

This isn't true - just like distance exists without measurement, time exists as well. If nobody measured it, there would still be distance, just like there is time.

I think, though I could be wrong, that time is changes. As in, if nothing changed at all - no movement at all at any level, there would be no time. I see time less like a river and more like cylinder made of thousands of discs. Each disc is a 'slice' of time, but each disc 'coexists'. We only experiance what we call time through the direction of cause and effect.

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lindagarrette03-16-2005, 08:44 PM
.

I think, though I could be wrong, that time is changes. As in, if nothing changed at all - no movement at all at any level, there would be no time. That's a pretty good description. Since we use time to measure events, before there was the universe, there were no events, consequently, no time.

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C1ay03-16-2005, 08:50 PM
before there was the universe, there were no events, consequently, no time.

I don't think we can say what was or wasn't before our universe. We can speculate but that's all, we can draw no conclusions based on our observations thus far. Maybe an event in a previous universe gave birth to our present universe, for instance.

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maddog03-16-2005, 11:18 PM
Einstein is quoted as saying, "Time is method we use to keep everything from
happening all at once". :D

Another point is that QM can be worked out for photons independent of time. This
is called the "time independent frame". Another more (though philosophical way
of saying it) is a photon does not "experience" time. I use quotes around the word
experience because I don't mean there is intelligence in the photon. It is just like
the event horizon of a black hole as for a photon. Time is essentially not present
(vanishes). There are case where time is then not essential. The measurement
of time (watch, clock, rotation earth, etc) are convention like the value of money.
Time use as a variable to measure the distance a particle travels, velocity, amount
of work performed, power and so on. In fact most derivatives are taken wrt to
time. This implies there would need be some observer to count the time. The
minimum here is a conciousness (does not need sentience maybe). This is what
Paul was getting at (to collapse the wave function). :)

Maddog

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lindagarrette03-17-2005, 07:58 AM
Einstein is quoted as saying, "Time is method we use to keep everything from
happening all at once". :D

Another point is that QM can be worked out for photons independent of time. This
is called the "time independent frame". Another more (though philosophical way
of saying it) is a photon does not "experience" time. I use quotes around the word
experience because I don't mean there is intelligence in the photon. It is just like
the event horizon of a black hole as for a photon. Time is essentially not present
(vanishes). There are case where time is then not essential. The measurement
of time (watch, clock, rotation earth, etc) are convention like the value of money.
Time use as a variable to measure the distance a particle travels, velocity, amount
of work performed, power and so on. In fact most derivatives are taken wrt to
time. This implies there would need be some observer to count the time. The
minimum here is a conciousness (does not need sentience maybe). This is what
Paul was getting at (to collapse the wave function). :)

MaddogIt's my understanding that the observer effect is merely symbolic because it requires statistical analysis to determine the status of a quantum entity. Space/time and quantum effects are not directly related to each other. As you mentioned, at hte quantum level, time is not required for description purposes. A particle can exist in the same place at the same time regardless of the presence of an observer.

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lindagarrette03-17-2005, 08:00 AM
I don't think we can say what was or wasn't before our universe. We can speculate but that's all, we can draw no conclusions based on our observations thus far. Maybe an event in a previous universe gave birth to our present universe, for instance. Anything is possible, however unlikely.

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NomadaNare03-22-2005, 04:15 PM
I heard a theory that all time that has ever been and that ever will be all happens at once. It's kinda weird but from our point of view, it makes sense. Discuss

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maddog03-22-2005, 04:56 PM
I heard a theory that all time that has ever been and that ever will be all happens at once. It's kinda weird but from our point of view, it makes sense. Discuss
I think you talking of the Many Worlds Theory by Everett (from 50s). Basically this an interpretation of
the wave function describing an event that hasn't actually happened yet. The wave function hasn't yet
collapsed and the outcome is not known. It is as though a bunch of universes existed where all the
variations of this event are all there to collapse into the outcome and it could be any one of them.
Even today it goes in and out of favor...

Maddog

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starrmtn00103-22-2005, 05:52 PM
I offer this tidbit for your rumination.

Seth Quotes Chapter 15
Seth: "Your idea of space and time is determined by your neurological structure. The camouflage is so craftily executed and created by the inner self that you must, by necessity, focus your attention on the physical reality which has been created."
"Time as you experience it is an illusion caused by your own physical senses....The apparent boundaries between past, present and future are only illusions caused by the amount of action you can physically perceive, and so it seems to you that one moment exists and is gone forever, and the next moment comes and like the one before also disappears."

"Everything in the universe exists at one time simultaneously. The first words ever spoken still ring through the universe, and in your terms, the last words ever spoken have already been said."

"The past, present and future only appear to those who exist within three-dimensional reality. The past exists as a series of electromagnetic connections held in the physical brain and in the nonphysical mind. These electromagnetic connections can be changed."

"The future consists of a series of electromagnetic connections in the mind and brain also. In other words, the past and present are real to the same extent. You take it for granted that present action can change the future, but present actions can also change the past."

"The past is no more objective or independent from the perceiver than is the present. The electromagnetic connections were largely made by the individual perceiver. The connection can be changed, and such changes are far from uncommon. These changes happen spontaneously on a subconscious basis."

"The past is seldom what you remember it to be, for you have already rearranged it from the instant of any given event. The past is being constantly recreated by each individual as attitudes and associations change. This is an actual recreation, not a symbolic one. The child is indeed still within the man, but he is not the child that 'was', for even the child within the man constantly changes."

"Every action changes every other action. Therefore, every action in your present affects actions you call past. It is possible to react in the past to an event that has not occurred, and to be influenced by your own future."

"It is also possible for an individual to react in the past to an event in the future, which in your terms, may never occur."

"Because past, present and future exist simultaneously, there is no reason why you cannot react to an event whether or not it happens to fall within the small field of reality in which you usually observe and participate."

"On a subconscious level, you react to many events that have not yet occurred as far as your ego's awareness is concerned. Such reactions are carefully screened out and not admitted to consciousness. The ego finds such instances distracting and annoying, and when forced to admit their validity, will resort to the most far fetched rationalizations to explain them."

"No event is predestined. Any given event can be changed not only before and during but after its occurrence. The individual is hardly at the mercy of past events, for he changes them constantly. He is hardly at the mercy of future events, for he changes these not only before but after their happening. An individuals future actions are not dependent upon a concrete finished past, for such a past never existed."

"The past is as real as the future, no more or less. There is a part of you that is not locked within physical reality, and that part of you knows that there is only an Eternal Now. The part of you that knows is the whole self, your inner and outer ego (all that you are).

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/seth15.htm

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lindagarrette03-23-2005, 09:13 AM
I offer this tidbit for your rumination.

Seth Quotes Chapter 15
"No event is predestined. Any given event can be changed not only before and during but after its occurrence. The individual is hardly at the mercy of past events, for he changes them constantly. He is hardly at the mercy of future events, for he changes these not only before but after their happening. An individuals future actions are not dependent upon a concrete finished past, for such a past never existed."

"The past is as real as the future, no more or less. There is a part of you that is not locked within physical reality, and that part of you knows that there is only an Eternal Now. The part of you that knows is the whole self, your inner and outer ego (all that you are).

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/seth15.htm What a pile of horse manure.

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starrmtn00103-23-2005, 01:34 PM
What a pile of horse manure.

I didn't believe you at first so I looked it up.
By gosh . . . you're right!

From http://thesaurus.reference.com/
Main Entry: pile
Part of Speech: noun 2
Definition: wealth
Synonyms: affluence, boodle, bundle, dough, fortune, mint, money, pot, riches, roll, tidy sum, wad

Main Entry: horse ( i.e. horse sense)
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: common sense
Synonyms: good sense, gumption, levelheadedness, plain sense, savvy, understanding

Main Entry: manure (i.e. firtile)
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: make ready
Synonyms: cover, dress, enrich, feed, fructify, generate, germinate, make fruitful, pollinate, procreate, propagate, top-dress, treat.

(Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition [v 1.1.1])
:hihi: :D

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Fishteacher7303-23-2005, 01:47 PM
I just want to make sure I understand you, star.... You are using the "works" of a "man" reached through a ouiji board as support?? :confused:

My dog talks to me sometimes....can I use his opinion....He is in for a deterministc universe...