AI
Wednesday, March 26, 2025 3:23:44 PM
brooklyn13, You didn't miss my post about what Israel should have done, at all. Cut your fucking distractive
bullshit. I've said it to you more than once. To you more likely 3-4 times. Again, the reaction should have
been proportionate. Netanyahu, Ben Givr et al though have Greater Israel always in mind though. See:
Report: Ben Gvir tried to prevent demolition of illegally constructed Haredi synagogues
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=175590892
In the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, some fear Netanyahu's plans after Assad's fall
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=175583381
Greater Israel: an Ongoing Expansion Plan for the Middle East and North Africa
[...]
2. Israeli demands and implications
2.1. Theodor Herzl and the Zionist Movement
Theodor Herzl is not the first proponent of a Jewish state. However, the history of territorial claims to land from Palestine will however not be analyzed in this article. It dates back at least a couple of centuries ago and Palestine was not the only option considered for a Jewish state before Balfour Declaration: the Uganda option, among others, was rejected by the World Zionist Organization at the beginning of 20th century. However, his and his group’s work resulted in the 1948 foundation of Israel as a state, and what the Palestinians call an-Nakba, i.e. the mass, forced, displacement of inhabitants from the future land of Israel. Adrian Stein explains that Herzl personally organized the first Zionist conference between 29th and 31st of August, 1897 at Stadtcasino in Basel (Stein, 2024). In Book 6 of Herzl’s diaries (beginning in 1898), Herzl describes a discussion he had with (German) Imperial Chancellor, Prince Hohenlohe, in which he is asked how much land is expected to be needed for the envisioned state. His reply was: “We will ask for what we need – the more immigrants, the more land.” In the same discussion, he explains: “We want autonomy and self-protection” (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, pp. 701-702).
Territorial demands mentioned in various instances of this book vary in formulation, but they essentially describe a territory larger than Israel 1967 broadly recognized borders or the ones of Palestinian occupied territories. An example is: “I wrote on a slip of paper…: Sinai Peninsula, Egyptian Palestine, Cyprus … Sinai – El Arish – Cyprus plan…” (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, pp. 1294-1295). In the discussion with Bodenheimer related to the area “…from the brooks of Egypt to the Euphrates…” described in Book Two (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, p. 711), the plan of a two-stage process was discussed, with the aim to introduce it to the Ottoman government: initially a Jewish governor (under Ottoman sovereignty, similar to the Egyptian relation with the Sultan) and as soon as the Jewish population surpasses two thirds a complete Jewish administration.
There are many details related to Zionist developments from this period, but from the perspective of state dynamics as a criterion in this study, Balfour Declaration was not approved yet by the British government. The world had not yet begun to decolonize, and the Ottoman Empire was in regression, allowing colonial powers like the United Kingdom and France to increase their influence in Ottoman territories. In the territory of Ottoman Palestine, the state-centered approach was appearing in the form of national aspirations as defined by the mandates, i.e. an auto determination that also abolished the Ottoman Empire.
It is rather difficult to identify the universalism degree of Herzl’s demands for land. There is a broad agreement among researchers that the Bible does not represent a scientific historical source, hence the narrative of return to Israel, or Greater Israel can be associated with an argumentative discourse, not a detailed history of the region or demographic realities on the ground. Without denying this possibility, it can also observed that the demand looks like deal proposals for certain decision-makers at certain times in history, rather than a clear delimitation of territory: it can be maximalist, in order to obtain as much as possible through negotiation, and it is presented as dynamic when replying to Prince Hohenlohe that more migrants will require more land. Another relative aspect of land demand is the readiness to buy the land from Arab and Greek owners (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, p. 702). Should this land had been Israeli, why buy it from existing, lawful owners? And should the thesis of “barren” land, propagated in the media, or “vacant land” (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, p. 1363) holds true, again, why buying it? Consequently, it can be asserted that the character of Herzl’s land demands is not universal. While there were reasons for the Zionist Movement to consider founding an independent Jewish state, the location and modality to implement such a project were subject to longer, previous negotiations with power guarantors of those times, i.e., the former colonial powers, Germany and later the United States. These were subjective agreements.
In 1948, the State of Israel was founded on inhabited Palestinian lands and although land has been bought, reportedly more than 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully displaced from their homes. The displacement of Palestinians and conflicts in the Occupied Palestinian territories continue to take place. Israel also fought wars with its Arab neighboring countries on more occasions, and the region remains relatively unstable.
2.2. The Oded Yinon Plan
The autonomy and self-protection goals stated by Herzl were achieved, although the self-protection aim is heavily reliant on American and European military aid to this day.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=175530225
No independent Palestinian state. More land. That's the agenda, that's the spine. All else is murder, mayhem and noise. It's like Trump et al's attack on American democracy. Bolsonaro is going on trial in Brazil for doing little, if anything, more than Trump has already done. One difference, of course, Trump was able to stack your Supreme Court better than Bolsonaro was able to stack his. With the help of your GOP.
bullshit. I've said it to you more than once. To you more likely 3-4 times. Again, the reaction should have
been proportionate. Netanyahu, Ben Givr et al though have Greater Israel always in mind though. See:
Report: Ben Gvir tried to prevent demolition of illegally constructed Haredi synagogues
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=175590892
In the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, some fear Netanyahu's plans after Assad's fall
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=175583381
Greater Israel: an Ongoing Expansion Plan for the Middle East and North Africa
[...]
2. Israeli demands and implications
2.1. Theodor Herzl and the Zionist Movement
Theodor Herzl is not the first proponent of a Jewish state. However, the history of territorial claims to land from Palestine will however not be analyzed in this article. It dates back at least a couple of centuries ago and Palestine was not the only option considered for a Jewish state before Balfour Declaration: the Uganda option, among others, was rejected by the World Zionist Organization at the beginning of 20th century. However, his and his group’s work resulted in the 1948 foundation of Israel as a state, and what the Palestinians call an-Nakba, i.e. the mass, forced, displacement of inhabitants from the future land of Israel. Adrian Stein explains that Herzl personally organized the first Zionist conference between 29th and 31st of August, 1897 at Stadtcasino in Basel (Stein, 2024). In Book 6 of Herzl’s diaries (beginning in 1898), Herzl describes a discussion he had with (German) Imperial Chancellor, Prince Hohenlohe, in which he is asked how much land is expected to be needed for the envisioned state. His reply was: “We will ask for what we need – the more immigrants, the more land.” In the same discussion, he explains: “We want autonomy and self-protection” (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, pp. 701-702).
Territorial demands mentioned in various instances of this book vary in formulation, but they essentially describe a territory larger than Israel 1967 broadly recognized borders or the ones of Palestinian occupied territories. An example is: “I wrote on a slip of paper…: Sinai Peninsula, Egyptian Palestine, Cyprus … Sinai – El Arish – Cyprus plan…” (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, pp. 1294-1295). In the discussion with Bodenheimer related to the area “…from the brooks of Egypt to the Euphrates…” described in Book Two (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, p. 711), the plan of a two-stage process was discussed, with the aim to introduce it to the Ottoman government: initially a Jewish governor (under Ottoman sovereignty, similar to the Egyptian relation with the Sultan) and as soon as the Jewish population surpasses two thirds a complete Jewish administration.
There are many details related to Zionist developments from this period, but from the perspective of state dynamics as a criterion in this study, Balfour Declaration was not approved yet by the British government. The world had not yet begun to decolonize, and the Ottoman Empire was in regression, allowing colonial powers like the United Kingdom and France to increase their influence in Ottoman territories. In the territory of Ottoman Palestine, the state-centered approach was appearing in the form of national aspirations as defined by the mandates, i.e. an auto determination that also abolished the Ottoman Empire.
It is rather difficult to identify the universalism degree of Herzl’s demands for land. There is a broad agreement among researchers that the Bible does not represent a scientific historical source, hence the narrative of return to Israel, or Greater Israel can be associated with an argumentative discourse, not a detailed history of the region or demographic realities on the ground. Without denying this possibility, it can also observed that the demand looks like deal proposals for certain decision-makers at certain times in history, rather than a clear delimitation of territory: it can be maximalist, in order to obtain as much as possible through negotiation, and it is presented as dynamic when replying to Prince Hohenlohe that more migrants will require more land. Another relative aspect of land demand is the readiness to buy the land from Arab and Greek owners (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, p. 702). Should this land had been Israeli, why buy it from existing, lawful owners? And should the thesis of “barren” land, propagated in the media, or “vacant land” (Herzl, Ed. Patai, & Transl. Zohn, 1960, p. 1363) holds true, again, why buying it? Consequently, it can be asserted that the character of Herzl’s land demands is not universal. While there were reasons for the Zionist Movement to consider founding an independent Jewish state, the location and modality to implement such a project were subject to longer, previous negotiations with power guarantors of those times, i.e., the former colonial powers, Germany and later the United States. These were subjective agreements.
In 1948, the State of Israel was founded on inhabited Palestinian lands and although land has been bought, reportedly more than 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully displaced from their homes. The displacement of Palestinians and conflicts in the Occupied Palestinian territories continue to take place. Israel also fought wars with its Arab neighboring countries on more occasions, and the region remains relatively unstable.
2.2. The Oded Yinon Plan
The autonomy and self-protection goals stated by Herzl were achieved, although the self-protection aim is heavily reliant on American and European military aid to this day.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=175530225
No independent Palestinian state. More land. That's the agenda, that's the spine. All else is murder, mayhem and noise. It's like Trump et al's attack on American democracy. Bolsonaro is going on trial in Brazil for doing little, if anything, more than Trump has already done. One difference, of course, Trump was able to stack your Supreme Court better than Bolsonaro was able to stack his. With the help of your GOP.
It was Plato who said, “He, O men, is the wisest, who like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing”
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