AI
Tuesday, August 21, 2001 8:08:02 PM
Re: eris: crumedgeons, antisemites, racist, etc.
Communism is not a political system. It is an economic system.
OK, fact time: Communism is a doctrine that is based on Socialism. Its goal is elimination of all private property.
The implementation of this doctrine requires a massive socio-political upheaval with considerable powers given to the state (this is usually accomplished via a civil war or some similar serious degree of mayhem). Beyond that, Communism and Marxist-Leninist Socialism (not to mention any number of the various other utopian societies...including the one described in Star Trek) will always fail. This failure is not necessarily due to the system, but to its incompatibility with human nature.
And yet socialism is the opposite end of the spectrum from *capitalism*, not *democracy* - and many countries are socialist (or much more so than the US) and have never had a massive socio-political upheaval. I won't be dragged into defending the merits of communism (as you pointed out, it is essentially synonymous with socialism) because I haven't said that I support it. I am simply arguing against the assumptions about it which stem from mindless absorption of propaganda.
Figure out a way to change that (without destroying the existing population) and these nutcase views might have a chance.
It is changing. The world is changing. Compare attitudes now with those of 1700. Perhaps I feel this more because I am a woman; I am quite cognizant of the fact that if I had lived 300 years ago I wouldn't even be taught to read, much less encouraged to do and be anything I want. I'm not saying it's changing so fast that we'll see an end to war in our lifetimes. (I said this already, but you went and accused me of exactly that, wanting to start revolutions and such...*sigh* you might not fight so much with me if you would slow down and listen to what I'm saying instead of what you've already decided to expect.)
'Those in power under the old system' just happen to be people who are enjoying the most profits.
Do you think perhaps that might be because (some of them at least) earned it?
You're kidding, right? You think Dubya earned something?
Has it been so long since you were 'youth'?
AI's are wise beyond their years.
Haha, artifical- likely; intelligent- prove it.
I'm not talking about education, I'm talking about socialization. It works even with illiterate rednecks.
Honey, unless you can collapse it all into a sound bite any new idea, product, service, economic or socio-political system simply hasn't got a chance.
Sweet Cheeks, propaganda works with everyone. We are drowning in it. The less intellectual the person, the easier they are to control with it.
And I thought the nutcase religious right were all Republicans...
While you obviously are, I'm afraid.
Well, technically I'm an atheist leftist (and despise Republicans); but however you want to interpret that is fine, I guess.
Why assume that what we live with now is an unchangeable law of physics?
Well, if you want to incite a civil war for the purposes of implementing a utopian ideal that has failed every time its been tried, then you are certainly welcome to try. Don't be surprised, however, if your friends prefer to hang out at the mall shopping for Gucci's instead of spending quality time with you back at the local commune.
First of all, I know I've said in several posts already how I feel about changing the current system. You are trying to insult me without even paying attention to what I'm saying, so your comments are missing the mark. I'm very disappointed, I expected more of a real debate. Second of all, the fact that an idea is doomed becuase it has never succeeded before is a non-argument. Everything that ever happens for the first time has never succeeded before, and there is always a first time. Logically, this point is meaningless.
Why disbelieve now that things can change, when so much changed in the 20th century?
For technology, that's often true. For human nature, that's usually false.
There's that 'human nature' thing again, what the hell is that? You don't know. Intelligence has nothing to do with nature, and our society is primarily an expression of intelligence. Abstract concepts are not natural; not art, not humour, not love or resentment. We created all of this. We *are* gods of our subjective world, and we define it.
Human society gets better all the time
Are we living on the same planet?
Would you rather live as a serf in the middle ages?
it's insane to think that war will disappear very soon, but it isn't insane to expect that it will eventually; just like slavery.
Hmmmm. I think I understand the problem now. You have an ideal in your mind that somehow is so appealing that it seems to override your perception of reality.
Otherwise, you would have been aware that slavery still exists.
Not much. And negligible compared to 150 years ago; 600 years ago everybody was enslaving each other. Unless, of course, you were talking about the worker wage-slave POV, and I would have thought that was too socialist sounding for you.
I have a broader perception of reality than you exhibit. I look for the patterns of society and culture, small and large. I know that what I am experiencing now is not indicative of any ultimate truth, it's just a moment's worth of a very long, complex story. Hey, I may be mistaken about the end of the story, but at least I don't think my direct experience defines the entire theme.
Communism is not a political system. It is an economic system.
OK, fact time: Communism is a doctrine that is based on Socialism. Its goal is elimination of all private property.
The implementation of this doctrine requires a massive socio-political upheaval with considerable powers given to the state (this is usually accomplished via a civil war or some similar serious degree of mayhem). Beyond that, Communism and Marxist-Leninist Socialism (not to mention any number of the various other utopian societies...including the one described in Star Trek) will always fail. This failure is not necessarily due to the system, but to its incompatibility with human nature.
And yet socialism is the opposite end of the spectrum from *capitalism*, not *democracy* - and many countries are socialist (or much more so than the US) and have never had a massive socio-political upheaval. I won't be dragged into defending the merits of communism (as you pointed out, it is essentially synonymous with socialism) because I haven't said that I support it. I am simply arguing against the assumptions about it which stem from mindless absorption of propaganda.
Figure out a way to change that (without destroying the existing population) and these nutcase views might have a chance.
It is changing. The world is changing. Compare attitudes now with those of 1700. Perhaps I feel this more because I am a woman; I am quite cognizant of the fact that if I had lived 300 years ago I wouldn't even be taught to read, much less encouraged to do and be anything I want. I'm not saying it's changing so fast that we'll see an end to war in our lifetimes. (I said this already, but you went and accused me of exactly that, wanting to start revolutions and such...*sigh* you might not fight so much with me if you would slow down and listen to what I'm saying instead of what you've already decided to expect.)
'Those in power under the old system' just happen to be people who are enjoying the most profits.
Do you think perhaps that might be because (some of them at least) earned it?
You're kidding, right? You think Dubya earned something?
Has it been so long since you were 'youth'?
AI's are wise beyond their years.
Haha, artifical- likely; intelligent- prove it.
I'm not talking about education, I'm talking about socialization. It works even with illiterate rednecks.
Honey, unless you can collapse it all into a sound bite any new idea, product, service, economic or socio-political system simply hasn't got a chance.
Sweet Cheeks, propaganda works with everyone. We are drowning in it. The less intellectual the person, the easier they are to control with it.
And I thought the nutcase religious right were all Republicans...
While you obviously are, I'm afraid.
Well, technically I'm an atheist leftist (and despise Republicans); but however you want to interpret that is fine, I guess.
Why assume that what we live with now is an unchangeable law of physics?
Well, if you want to incite a civil war for the purposes of implementing a utopian ideal that has failed every time its been tried, then you are certainly welcome to try. Don't be surprised, however, if your friends prefer to hang out at the mall shopping for Gucci's instead of spending quality time with you back at the local commune.
First of all, I know I've said in several posts already how I feel about changing the current system. You are trying to insult me without even paying attention to what I'm saying, so your comments are missing the mark. I'm very disappointed, I expected more of a real debate. Second of all, the fact that an idea is doomed becuase it has never succeeded before is a non-argument. Everything that ever happens for the first time has never succeeded before, and there is always a first time. Logically, this point is meaningless.
Why disbelieve now that things can change, when so much changed in the 20th century?
For technology, that's often true. For human nature, that's usually false.
There's that 'human nature' thing again, what the hell is that? You don't know. Intelligence has nothing to do with nature, and our society is primarily an expression of intelligence. Abstract concepts are not natural; not art, not humour, not love or resentment. We created all of this. We *are* gods of our subjective world, and we define it.
Human society gets better all the time
Are we living on the same planet?
Would you rather live as a serf in the middle ages?
it's insane to think that war will disappear very soon, but it isn't insane to expect that it will eventually; just like slavery.
Hmmmm. I think I understand the problem now. You have an ideal in your mind that somehow is so appealing that it seems to override your perception of reality.
Otherwise, you would have been aware that slavery still exists.
Not much. And negligible compared to 150 years ago; 600 years ago everybody was enslaving each other. Unless, of course, you were talking about the worker wage-slave POV, and I would have thought that was too socialist sounding for you.
I have a broader perception of reality than you exhibit. I look for the patterns of society and culture, small and large. I know that what I am experiencing now is not indicative of any ultimate truth, it's just a moment's worth of a very long, complex story. Hey, I may be mistaken about the end of the story, but at least I don't think my direct experience defines the entire theme.
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