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Yea Bob, I'm in to whatever gives this thing a kick in the Kahuna. The post exit investors must see value in this even if coming indirectly.
Lucky, what do you think now of your past post…477795…to me it still makes sense, although less shares now that some will go to NS and KKR. There has to be value (WMIIC, the other non POR, non GSA BK) that the post reorganized hedge funds and institutional investors see to still remain here. I believe several bought in between $2 and $3.
Ms. Lonstein from Blackhorse
And what's interesting about this plan is that it
13 provides for senior creditors owed billions of dollars to
14 choose to take stock in an ostensibly 100 million dollar
15 company, okay, instead of cash. Why would creditors owed
16 billions of dollars take stocks in 100 million dollar company
17 instead of cash. There must be something valuable about that
18 stock.
barefoot, the dilution is actually good for current WMIH shareholders in my opinion. I know this is counter intuitive but let me explain.
Most people here currently assume that current WMIH valuation is in the 6 billion NOLs. I say that is deceptive. Lets just assume for now that those NOLs are worth zero. There are currently 200 millions WMIH shares. Lets say the illiquid portfolio coming back from safe harbor is worth $35 billion. Lets say WMIH issues 3.5 billion shares to escrow holders in exchange for the $35 billion portfolio. I ask you. What do you think the "diluted" stocks are going to be worth.
The answer is they will be worth around $10. Since the dilutive shares are 3.5 billion and the original shares are only 200 million, the total valuation is essentially going to be worth whatever the portfolio is valued at... in this case it will be $35 billion / 3.7 billion total shares... approximately $10. This is on the conservative side of valuation.
As you can see, it doesnt matter what our cureent $6 billion NOL is going to be valued at with new Trump Tax. The main valuation jump for current 200 million shares of WMIH common stocks are going to come from the 3.5 billion shares "dilution" for the shares exchange with escrow for whatever illiquid loan portfolio is left in safe harbor.
LG, Are there any disputed claims against the P,K, or U’s? IDK
(b) any security, document, agreement or instrument related to a Disputed Claim until a Final Order resolving any such Disputed Claim is entered;
If the Merger does consummate how many of the 3.5B shares are left for the possible share for value exchange? I believe this is where KKR and NS get their shares. If escrows do receive shares for value… do we not want the share price to be as low as possible? I would think the colorable hedgies do. Everyone feels differently about getting shares or cash for value “if” it happens that way…if it does…gimmy the shares.
I agree BigBang...I think they are proud of the name and...possibly making a statement by keeping it. After all couldn't they have changed it at reorganization?
It just seems like they hate equity
What ever the masterminded way they have done this, which is beyond my understanding, KKR is our new over 50% owner.
"And then there is WMIH who seems to be the owner but gifts itself away(50%) for couple of 100 millions."
Thank you AZ for sharing your knowledge with us as it seems to me an extremely taxing effort you have gone through. Merry Christmas to you and everyone.
EMPATHY?... Is there such a thing in a bankruptcy?... I think more a fear of disallowance.
It is sad to see what the power players get away with; something that will never change.
It was not fun reading it as I still believe JPM is making a killing with the Bank assets for the very little they paid!
Thank you Option, my computer wouldn't let me download and I was wondering if WMIIC was a seperate issue.
Lucky, Thanks for the clarity. That explanation seems logical to the point that it almost has to happen that way. I couldn’t see the benefit for the post exit hedgies before. Some of those hedge funds have been here a long time and they don’t wait for nothing.
pay us cash and merge the remaining portfolio with WMIH for 3.5 billion shares.
LG,
At no time, has ANYBODY admitted there is money for equity and nothing has changed in this case.
And what's interesting about this plan is that it
provides for senior creditors owed billions of dollars to
choose to take stock in an ostensibly 100 million dollar
company, okay, instead of cash.
JWW and Mr. Simpson, 55,753,713 x 20 (5%) = 1,115,074,260. Maybe this is where the 3.5B authorized comes into play. Lower the share price…divvy out escrow share for value to keep Appaloosa at no more than 5%. Of course Appaloosa would get escrow shares also and the 55B would increase so the 1.115B would have to increase. At some point a possible stock split to get the share count down. Not sure if the 5% or less is still in play to avoid a change in control. WAG
I was thinking of posting something similar awhile back. Since I have the same kind of luck, I was going to offer to sell all my shares…which of course the share price would then skyrocket,… However, before doing so I would need a signed contract from all of you to kick back 1% of your gains to me. It would be a win/win.
drrugby, good to see you back. Don't stay away so long. How's fisson doing.
Precisely. He didn’t even depose those that should have been deposed. The Judge filed the report in the waste basket…a three pointer …What does that tell you?...Incomplete. Somehow Super Susman had an idea that might happen. Was that his way of telling us there is more here than meets the eye? By law there was only so much she could do, but I have no doubt Judge Mary saved us.
Correct. If all they were after was the NOLS the creditors could have taken their Billions and bought back in after reorganization at .40 a share and still have billions for other things.
Instead… they wanted the 100 million company. My guess is that after Paulsons statement of “you should have sold” there was some creative planning going on.
LG, thanks for posting. AZ, thanks for writing. Incredible work of art!
This alleged final PAA consists of 44 pages. No inventory of home mortgages is included.
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=81353092
Bare Minimum…Ok, I know I keep beating this dead horse…but is it really dead?
Some will say things have changed since the statement below and they have…we are now a part of it.
Ms. Lonstein from Blackhorse
And what's interesting about this plan is that it
13 provides for senior creditors owed billions of dollars to
14 choose to take stock in an ostensibly 100 million dollar
15 company, okay, instead of cash. Why would creditors owed
16 billions of dollars take stocks in 100 million dollar company
17 instead of cash. There must be something valuable about that
18 stock.
37:45: they prefer buying a privat company, not a public company. he repeats IT WILL be a private company, so I think they have a target already and they make good progress
Private companies are not required to publicly disclose financial information, while public companies are required by the Securities and Exchange Commission to file an annual report documenting their performance in detail.
Public vs. Private
37:45: they prefer buying a privat company, not a public company. he repeats IT WILL be a private company, so I think they have a target already and they make good progress
HM, I was just trying to show that because of the rarity of this event (taking over a solvent bank) the SEC might waive the strict accounting rules for the parent company. Just wondering about the WMIIC thing… why they went through a separate BK…why no acquisition yet…why A&M still billing...why Gallagher and Fairfield…In general maybe this is how they are getting around having to report certain happenings to the SEC.
Venezuela (huh?)
Under that rule, subsidiaries' assets are marked to market value and reported on the balance sheet as an investment instead of under core assets and liabilities. On the income statement, the operations typically would no longer be part of the parent’s financial results.
The company said it consulted the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission before making the move. An SEC spokeswoman declined comment.
Though Ford did not use the term, accounting experts said it appeared to be deconsolidating, or removing its Venezuelan subsidiaries from its financial results by taking advantage of a rarely used U.S. accounting rule.
The move, though, is very rare. Strict accounting rules nearly always require companies to consolidate or include any majority-owned subsidiaries in the parent’s financial results.
He and other accounting experts said they could not recall the last time a company removed, or deconsolidated a subsidiary that it owned from its results for currency reasons.
"It's not something that's mainstream, but the situation in Venezuela is really a morass," said Jack Ciesielski, president of investment research firm R.G. Associates.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-usa-companies-analysis-idUSKBN0LL0A920150217
Thanks Cowboy eom
Ms. Lonstein from Blackhorse
And what's interesting about this plan is that it
13 provides for senior creditors owed billions of dollars to
14 choose to take stock in an ostensibly 100 million dollar
15 company, okay, instead of cash. Why would creditors owed
16 billions of dollars take stocks in 100 million dollar company
17 instead of cash. There must be something valuable about that
18 stock.
and never legally challenged since.
On March 19, 2012 (the “Effective Date”), the Plan became effective and certain of the Debtors’ assets were transferred to a newly formed Delaware liquidating trust (the “WMI Liquidating Trust”) as further described in the Plan.
IMO, She SHOULD HAVE DEMANDED an Asset List.
...it CRUSHED EQUITY.
...IMO, "celebrating that" (the Examiner's Report artifact) is certainly not a symbol of shareholder success in the WaMu saga.
WMI knew what was about to happen in 2008. They set themselves up by bringing in WMRRC directly under WMI a month before the collapse. WMIIC was sent off on its own little bankruptcy…why did they do that? I’m sure there was a good reason. What was in WMIIC and what more was added before waving goodbye? It was all preplanned.
WMMRC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of WMIH. Prior to August 2008 (at which time WMMRC became a direct subsidiary of WMI), WMMRC was a wholly-owned subsidiary of FA Out-of-State Holdings, Inc., a second-tier subsidiary of Washington Mutual Bank (“WMB”) and third-tier subsidiary of WMI.
Tanja, that was an impressive post, but I don't see it anymore. Did you pull it to edit it or did someone else. If someone else, try to revise so it stays.
The Official Committee of Equity Security Holders
of Washington Mutual, Inc. et al.
To: The Equity Security Holders of Washington Mutual, Inc.
RE: In re Washington Mutual Inc., et al., Case No. 08-12229 (MFW)
Dear Equity Security Holders:
POTENTIAL RECOVERY FOR EQUITY HOLDERS GRANTING RELEASES:
If the Seventh Amended Plan is approved by the Bankruptcy Court, WMI's equity holders who have granted timely releases will obtain potential recovery through two sources: ownership of the Reorganized Debtor and interests in the Liquidating Trust (following satisfaction of claims senior in priority to equity interests). From the perspective of equity holders, the Seventh Amended Plan provides significant improvements over prior plans with regard to both of these interests.
Liquidating Trust: The Liquidating Trust will receive, manage, and liquidate all assets belonging to the Debtors that are not directly distributed to creditors under the Seventh Amended Plan, apart from the assets allocated to the Reorganized Debtor. These Liquidating Trust assets include (was the word “include” necessary if potential litigation claims was the only source?) potential litigation claims that have not been resolved (by settlement or otherwise) against a number of entities and individuals who may have contributed to WMI' s failure, including accountants and underwriters. Distribution of any money obtained as these assets are liquidated will follow the priority scheme in the Bankruptcy Code, and creditors will be made whole before any money can be distributed to WMI preferred or common shareholders. Under the Seventh Amended Plan, representatives appointed by the Equity Committee will have meaningful involvement (and what is the point of being involved if there's nothing there) in the management of the Liquidating Trust. This change from prior plans is an important factor in the Equity Committee's decision to support the Seventh Amended Plan.
It sounds to me like the Liquidating Trust was the main reason for the Equity Committee’s support and that WMIH along with the NOL’s was subservient.
Elimination of Intercompany Investments and Calculating Minority Interests
In consolidating the books of a subsidiary with those of the parent company, you credit the parent with the portion of the subsidiary that it actually owns and exclude what outside investors own. The value of minority interests is reported in terms of the aggregate net assets (equity) rather than in terms of a fractional equity in each of the assets and liabilities of the subsidiary.
To reflect minority interest, General Ledger generates an adjustments entry that debits the investment of the parent in the subsidiary account and credits a minority interest account. The system calculates the adjustment by multiplying the percentage of minority interest in the subsidiary by the total equity of the subsidiary.
Effectively, the combined result of the adjustments and eliminations entries is to express the value of the parent investment in terms of the assets and liabilities of the subsidiary offset by a minority interest liability. The equity ownership for each subsidiary in the consolidation is eliminated, with only the parent company's equity accounts and minority interest account remaining. Consolidated capital stock and retained earnings is equal to the balances of the parent.
https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E51433_01/fscm92pbr2/eng/fscm/fglr/concept_UnderstandingConsolidationandEquitization-9f4ab5.html
Exclude what outside investors own.Could that be WMILT?
since no lawsuit, no reward for tepper
7 years and no lawsuits. ask yourself why.
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=117276848
Post #436331 from 955 yesterday. I wonder if there are any links to any or all of those events… and… if there is, I’m sure they are either under seal, redacted or considered classified;… so I don’t suppose there is any truth in it…If it is not linked it is false.
We have made it through all the qualifying rounds and are now at the US Open.
Very nice Dion, eom