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For TATF tree owners, it is very important to understand:
1.Why TATF/Raleo/TAH value-add, particularly for younger teak trees, is so important for our IRR. And, that there is no TATF obligation to value-add.
2.Why, under normal circumstances, selling only logs does not maximize IRR.
3.What "h&p" cost actually covers: only felling, sectioning, milling, & air-drying--nothing else.
4.When, and if, "care & management fees" are deducted from tree owner proceeds.
5.What TATF projections actually assume.
6.Not TATF, but another entity, bought the clear-cut/flooded trees under separate agreements with individual tree owners--made in advance.
For the previous few posts, it seems these key concepts in our TATF agreements, are not clearly understood.
Thank you for your inquiry, A1
TATF contacted me about the potential damage; they organized the clear cutting and coordinated the proceeds distribution from the purchaser.
Same with the other 2-'96 teak tree owners that I know personally.
Believe the same was done with a significant # of other tree owners on, at least, el Capital farm and maybe 1-2 other farms.
Sorry, I do not have specifics about other tree owners as TATF holds that information in confidence.
It is a bit difficult to determine the $/cu.m. that was received as some of our '96 teak trees had been thinned once; some twice.
Also, I do not believe "I am a special case," I think this was a special situation where TATF indicated it was in our best interest to have the '96 teak clear cut.
If the trees were not going to continue to mature, as all our other holdings, I was personally convinced this was the 100% correct course of action.
All our other holdings continue to mature and we are hopeful the prices will continue to escalate--that is in all tree owner's best interest, I belive.
This is to confirm significant $ U.S. distributions
We are not:
Relatives of Steve & Sherry Brunner
Friends of the TATF owners
In any way connected to TATF/Raleo/TAH
During the last several months, we were contacted by TATF to indicate the opportunity to clear cut a significant quantity of teak trees that could be potentially affected by highly abnormal rainfall and river flow adjacent to fields where we own '96 Teak trees.
We elected to have those stands clear cut and take the available $ proceeds.
I'm happy to report TATF coordinated numerous operations and wired the agreed-upon proceeds in U.S Dollars.
I personally know of 2 other TATF tree owners that had similar experiences with this situation--and believe there are many more.
They are not friends, nor relatives of the TATF owners--but also appreciated the coordination, communication, and honesty of the Brunners.
Although the situations were somewhat unfortunate, we are satisfied that our best interest were looked after.
Further, our remaining holdings (both Teak and native species) continue to mature and continue to be well-looked-after.
We are looking forward to: continued tropical timber growth, installation of significant value-add capacity, and harvesting-- those will confirm our faith in all the fine folks at Tropical American Tree Farms, Raleo, and Tropical American Hardwoods.
jack of "mia" trying to sell services of simon of "ny"
Seems a non-TATF tree owner is attempting to convince TATF tree owners to hire a class-action lawyer.
Maybe there is more here than meets the eye?
Interesting, very interesting!
What's next?
Tree Owners can speak for themselves, as I do!
I am not, and never have been, a "spokesman" for TATF!
It is non-sensical for a Miami "professor" to be so pompous as to even think that he speaks for tree owners, especially when he, admittedly, is not--and never has been--a TATF tree owner.
These outrageous claims do nothing more than damage TATF/Raleo and all legitimate tree owners' financial interests.
DOESN'T KNOW 'JACK'
Most who are frequent readers of this forum understand that there are legitimate tree owners with TATF who are genuinely interested in getting quality information from the TATF owners.
They also know that the most frequent "professorial" poster here, from Miami, is not now a tree owner, and, never has been.
It is quite amazing that so many tree owners' investments have been majorly harmed with the degrading and malicious postings by a very few intent on doing harm to TATF and all tree owners' financial interests.
Save some flooding issues over the years, all our trees continue to grow magnificently and gain value over the long term.
The TATF investment is not a short term "get rich scheme."
Rather, it is a 20 to 25 year, environmentally-sound project with great potential benefits.
While there are many who would like to have more and more-frequent information about their specific stand of trees, most understand that the desired information would not lead to a decision or action plan--only more time taken from the business of managing our tree investments.
Tree Owner News and TATF-exchanged emails are the very best sources of credible, factual information on our tree investments.
So, this is to suggest ignoring the ignorant 'jacks.'
DISREGARD
Suggest this MIA poster be dis-regarded.
He, admittedly, is neither now a TATF tree owner, nor ever has been!
BEWARE OF POSTERS HERE WHO ANOINT THEMSELVES
They fraudulently claim to have "spoken" to many tree owners.
They pompously claim to "speak for many other tree owners;" tree owners can speak for themselves!
In documented cases, here on The Investor's Hub, they are either:
1. Disgruntled former TATF employees
2. Hucksters, who do not, in fact, own any TATF trees
They are trying to do nothing more than to do harm to all TATF tree owner's financial interests!
OUR EXPERIENCE
THE VALUE OF VALUE ADD ON TEAK
A few months back we sold another container of our teak, 15-16 years old, from TATF farms.
The lumber ranged in width from 2" to 6," while the lengths were 18" to 72"; thicknesses were 2/4 to 12/4.
The container carried to the U.S. over 10,000b/f and the lumber was dried, dimensioned, and S4S.
The value-add by TATF/Raleo/TAH allowed the selling price per board foot to be slightly over $7.45.
This, to us, demonstrates extraordinary viability/desirability of the strategies to add value to all possible thinnings and harvests by making flooring, panels, sawn & rotary veneer, and dimensioned lumber.
We have been TATF tree-owners for over 16 years and own thousands of '93-'96 teak trees in 18 different fields on these farms:
Campo Real
Santo Domingo
La Esperanza
Rio Blanco
el Capital
In addition, we own 9 native species in 9 fields on Campo Real, Santo Domingo, and Rio Blanco farms.
In addition to my having made a number of fishing/vacation trips to both coasts of Costa Rica over the years, our family made a wonderful Spring Break trip to Quepos to inspect our trees on the farms where we met both Mr. & Mrs. Brunner.
On almost all of our thinnings, we had elected to take the thinning credit to purchase additional teak trees.
In addition to the above sale, we sold teak in another container of TATF teak, also dimensioned, to the U.S. for a similar price per board foot.
And we have received some distribution of thinning proceeds from TATF.
Currently we are satisfied with decision to temporarily delay harvests until the market improves or the value adding is fully under way.
As this is a long-term project and investment, we fully understand that that about 88% of the current-purchase projected net proceeds come from the final 3 harvests of Teak--none of which have yet been done!
We have found the Brunners to be most honorable people over the past 16 years.
Also that the value-add they are working on to help all tree owners in this economy is way beyond anything agreed to.
They should be commended for being so constant and persistent in this endeavor.
Construction volume affects all wood markets throughout the world, and new home construction in the U.S. right now is running about 20-30% of the 2005 high.
The bright side for the not-too-distant future is that there is pent-up demand in the U.S.
Japan has designated $50 billion for reconstruction after their recent disaster; China has announced plans to build 36 million low-cost homes beginning this year; and China and Chinese companies are investing about $7 billion per year in the Caribbean--all of which points to a very bright future for the upcoming wood demand.
That should be wonderful for TATF and all TATF tree owners.
I have made 4 trips to Costa Rica
Our trees, and all that we saw, were growing very well and had been well cared for.
Please speak only for yourself--not others on this forum; I speak only from my personal experience as a current, and one of the original, tree owners of both thousands of teak and hundreds of 9 native species.
You are no longer a tree owner, and made the 2 decisions to sell your trees--your responsibility, not TATFs!
So you signed a legitimate tree owner agreement to purchase?
And, it had no re-purchase agreement.
TATF did, in fact, buy back part of your trees?
And YOU DID SELL THE BALANCE at a fraction of your purchase price?
The questions were not answered.
How did "belmontx" and son Brad, "justcfrall" lose money that was the fault of TATF?
We have received distributions in the form of both credits and proceeds.
The credits for thinned teak and native lumber allowed purchase of additional teak trees.
Our proceeds were hard U.S. Dollars for teak lumber which we sold--the shipment pictures are on the TATF web site.
How is it that money claimed lost was due to TATF?
It has been said here that "belmontx" lost money yet was never a TATF tree owner.
Further, his son Brad, "justcfrall" bought his trees with HIS "hard earned money".
He later sold part of his trees back to TATF--for at least what he paid for them, and the balance to "marc from pittsburg" at a fraction of their purchase price.
Please explain to the readers of this forum how any losses were the fault of TATF?
From current Notes to Projections:
9. Harvest and processing costs are the direct costs of harvesting your trees, milling your logs into marketable lumber, and drying your lumber.
The harvest and processing costs shown in the tables above are based on our actual harvest and processing costs of $0.37 per board foot, increasing annually at the same annual rate as the projected increase in the price of the teak lumber.
H&P includes only tree harvest, sectioning into logs, milling to a specific thickness, then AIR DRY--in the field. It has no transport, kiln dry, export, fumigation, customs, or any other similar expenses.
11. The care and management fee is our reward for managing the care and maintenance of your trees and the harvest, processing and sale of your hardwoods. Our care and management fee is fixed at 6% of the net harvest proceeds. We will defer receiving our care and management fee until you have first received the return of the cost of your trees.
All this agrees with our experience with the loads we sold & exported.
abn-rgr-rvn
Dear doc matt:
Starting about 15 years ago, we gave blanket agreement to the recommended thinnings by the expert foresters at TATF, as we have no unique knowledge about optimum thinning/harvest strategies nor weather-related considerations (i.e. potential root damage to remaining trees in wet conditions from heavy equipment).
The #3118 post basically summarizes our thinning results to date.
Any thin reports in 2010 were only to manage the lumber export which we sold (did not personally use, nor take personal delivery) with TATF/Raleo/TAH guidance and management.
We know of no native thinning done in 2010 except to test the new machines.
Again, we expect 2011 to be a major production year assuming the re-capitalization is successfully & quickly completed.
The very best current information about progress and plans at TATF/Raleo/TAH is contained in the 2010 Summer Newsletter to all tree owners (TON).
abn-rgr-rvn
Dear doc matt:
There are literally dozens of documents (paperwork?) associated with processing, packing, exporting, shipping, inspecting, & receiving TATF Teak lumber.
Is there some specific decision you wish to make based upon information (paperwork?) you would find useful?
Or, is your "paperwork" question one of simple curiousity?
abn-rgr-rvn
With numerous former employees and competitors (past & present) here, it seemed our posts were no longer welcomed. FACT
We have received both thinning credit (applied to additional tree purchases) as well as wired $ proceeds from Teak (only) lumber containers sold (by us) and exported. FACT
We believe 2011 will be a pivotal year for TATF and treeowners when the re-capitalization is completed--probably 5-8MM bf of Teak processed per year going forward. BELIEF
I'll try to answer any honest/legitimate questions--and clearly indicate fact vs. belief/opinion.
abn-rgr-rvn
Dear Marc from Pittsburgh:
Thank you for your offer; hopefully, you will find interest here.
At this point, at our age, our only potential interest is in teak trees (as stated in #2400) and (sorry, only stated "older") planted '92-'95.
An earlier offerer was not interested in identifying either the planting year nor the farm where the teak was planted; only interest was to know why that was asked.
Go figure?
We have no knowledge of the farm-to-farm nor field-to-field variation in teak growth rates nor condition of trees.
But it does seem very basic to initially ask for just some baseline information on what is being offered (if indeed legitimate?).
Go Steelers!
Please explain to all participants here:
1. You say you have proof, and you are yourself convinced, that TATF is (in your words), a "scam."
2. You recently sold your TATF holdings to David Knight.
3. After buying a nearby teak farm to TATF, you sold the teak and farm under both unexplained and nefarious circumstances.
4. You are, therefore, no longer a tree owner; right?
5. Under the proper protocol for selling your TATF trees: the seller must void his certificates and tree-owner-agreements and send them to TATF.
6. After the funds change hands, the new owner must then be issued a new tree order form constituting an agreement with TATF for maintenance and care of the trees.
7. If this is a scam in your mind, how could YOU (in good conscience) perpetrate such a fraud?
Please explain!
Very astute observation, "fawt:"
Now everyone who reads 'Investing in Timber' on this Investors Hub knows precisely why TATF/Raleo/TAH is in the business of adding value and NOT SELLING LOGS.
Some peoples perception of the obvious is just phenomenal, wow!
Simple questions not answered;
On which farms, were planted how many teak trees, in what years?
At this point no due diligence, notarized certs., field nor rows needed.
Very critical questions you have not answered here:
What year were your (3000 original?) teak trees planted on what farm?
What thinnings (% & what years) have been done?
How many trees of the original are yet standing?
Are you offering the remaining (how many?) standing trees for $75/tree?
Dear "dupe" & "fawt"
au contrair;
nothing like not even reading someone's specified purchase interest.
Not at all surprising!
Why would one try to list $600k misc. trees with neither a growing contract with TATF, nor listing specific OLDER TEAK that was requested ("let's meet in the woods somewhere").
What '92-'97 TEAK might, in fact, you have available?
abn-rgr-rvn
Here are the realities & facts; no spin:
Does anyone here have any older teak trees for sale?
abn-rgr-rvn
TATF TREE OWNER NEWS, SUMMER 2010
http://www.tropicalhardwoods.com/htm/tree_owners_news/22_summer_2010.htm
It seems none of the regulars are interested?
However, we have been tree owners since Fall '95 and own thousands of teak trees ('93-'96) and hundreds of native species('93-'97).
We used early-days thinning credits (@ $2.05/b-f, native &
$2.51/bf teak) to purchase additional teak trees.
Further, we have sold containers of both 13-year and 16-year teak finished/processed lumber (with TATF help) to customers we have found.
So, we have gotten significant proceeds from lumber sales!
We are no relation to either Mr. or Mrs. Brunner, and are neither "family" nor close friends--met them @ Campo Real on a visit to Costa Rica.
However, we actively seek customers for our thinned and harvested trees--turned into lumber &/or value-added products.
TATF/Raleo'/TAH are not in the business of selling logs, so suggest those posts/price-comparisons are completely irrevelant to the business-at-hand.
If there is any interest, we will try to answer relevant questions that do not divulge customer-confidential information.
Certainly there have disappointments along the way, but we very clearly see all these tree investments as excellent/very good.
agn-rgr-rvn
Dear Matty05:
Have you looked lately at: Teak Projections, Notes to Projections, and IRR?
Have they changed lately--or since the last time you looked at them?
My post was simply to indicate that based upon my current pricing information for older teak lumber--they are up-to-date and about right.
Unfortunately, as before, the specific order information is confidential.
agn-rgr-rvn
Actual teak lumber prices agree with current projections
Based upon my current lumber order, the actual teak lumber prices and projections currently posted on the TATF web site are correct.
abn-rgr-rvn
abn-rgr-rvn not MIA
Just watching/reading-about those "nay-sayers" on this board continually trashing TATF--and definitely damaging an otherwise great investment for us Tree Owners.
Still know that all are not actual Tree Owners.
Convinced some posters both in the past and present are either tree-selling competitors ("justcfrall" Fred & Amy) or former employees.
How does that crow taste that you are eating?
Dear "ma:"
We have found recently that private email correspondence offering specific assistance to TATF/Raleo/TAH has been very successful regarding our holdings and next steps.
In my humble opinion, the TATF web site seems to pretty well reflect current reality.
As many readers and posters here, we hope there will be more information forthcoming very/very soon.
It seems that "belmo," "ju," and "fawt" (and others) are determined to do damage; why, is a continuing mystery if they are legitimate tree owners?
All posters who do not agree with their opinions are labeled as "steve posters."
I honestly hope he has not wasted his valuable time reading this forum the past 2 years (since his last posting).
We know "ju" is a former plantation/teak-tree grower. Who knows who may be former employees?
There is no point in my responding to their buffoon-like opinions and accusations.
abn-rgr-rvn
"IMO there are 3:"
Dear "dupe:"
Nice try! With each email address, there can be only one screen name here!
Steve has indicated on numerous occasions, he used only his real name (Steve Brunner) for all his postings--now over a year old; and, he no longer reads the Investor's Hub.
I, "abn-rgr-rvn" am a simple tree owner with TATF; no relation to, nor prior business with the Brunners--not a competitor, nor a former employee.
There are a number of posters here that are former employees or competitors.
We have found some success recently in a co-operative, email business approach with TATF/Raleo/TAH.
Suggest others may experience progress using a personal/private, mutually beneficial approach to offer assistance.
Suggest periodically checking
The "What's New" part of the TATF web site has been slightly updated a couple of times this past month.
Equipment status is there.
Tree thin results; flood replacements
If anyone would be interested in our early tree-thinning yield/results &/or flood replacements, please let me know what specific information would be of most use/value.
My apologies, "snap":
We had not intended to ignore your question/offer.
After analysis I (in haste) wrote post # 1780, and, at the end, indicated that we (at present) are unable to purchase additional trees.
With the upcoming:
1. Audit information (see newest TON)
2. Thin/harvest information
3. My predicted success in high-volume/value-add products
4. Any other opportunities to sell stockpiled logs/cants/lumber
we should be able to consider tree purchases here and with TATF--even new plantings (if, hopefully, they are ever again offered).
perhaps you can share some information
Dear Jan:
1. Since you said you corresponded with Steve, how about sharing the complete email you received from Steve; that might shed some light on discussions here, and help all of us understand the current situation with our trees & TATF?
2. In my post 1752, I shared the steps taken in processing a few 13-yr Teak trees into lumber that we, in fact, sold--then received $ proceeds distribution.
3. As previously stated, we do not have the break-down of this "cost."
Since I can remember, $.29/B-F is not a "price" (to be negotiated), it is a "cost" that has been on the TATF web site since the beginning--only to fell, mill, and air dry Teak.
4. I assume if someone wanted to have another entity process their trees into kiln dried lumber, they could take delivery of the logs and do so.
5. "justcfrall" indicated some time ago that $.20/B-F was more realistic from his experience as a plantation and teak tree farm owner.
Just wondering what his "cost" break-down might be?
abn-rgr-rvn
dear "snap" & "ju" here is my response to "snap's"?
I can find only one question mixed in with your opinions, and it is in regard to "value-add agreements."
I mis-spoke; what I should have said is in all MY agreements, there are NONE that address/obligate "value-add" by TATF/TAH/Raleo'.
These-activities/this-spending is completely at their enormous initiative.
Mine was a hasty generalization; I apologize.
Maybe others have agreements that so stipulate?
dear "snap"; based upon your experience w/ TATF
Be interested in any perspectives on post # 1742.
abn-rgr-rvn
patience, this is a long-term investment
We have been tree owners for over 15 years--owning seed-grown teak as old as '93 planted (also 9 native species). See post # 1172 for more info.
We have received specific, written thinning reports dated:
5/16/01
8/25/04
11/28/06
So it has been over 3 years since we have received a thinning report. We have been told our '96 seed-planted teak was all thinned by 2009; however, to date, we have not received a written report.
For some "history" on TATF communications on (lack of) value of young teak, suggest reading post 1200.
There does not exist any agreement on value add; but it is an enormous expense of capital and effort/time at TATF.
For seed-grown teak, my read of TATF projections indicate almost 60% of the projected net proceeds are a result of the final, year 25 harvest.
And, over 91% of the projected net proceeds come from the years 17, 21, & 25 harvests.
For us, none of these last 3 thinnings have taken place; consequently, our patience.
For our sake (and, probably many Tree Owners) I believe Mr. Brunner has ceased both posting and reading the HUB/forum. I would be very happy if he is spending 200% of his time building/maximizing IRR for all Tree Owners(i.e. 3/2/10 arrival of new equipment for high-volume/value-add products)
In time, we have found polite emails answered; not always what we wanted to hear--but answered. We have no hot-line to Mr. Brunner.
I belive the $0.29/B-F H&P cost is, for now, the best they can both estimate and do--on average for small and hugh trees.
I have no break-down. We paid it.
If a tree owner asks TATF to sell their lumber, I think trying to "negotiate" that will be fruitless.
If a tree owner wished to have their logs processed elsewhere, that could be an option.
In recent posts, we have tried to share our (hopefully somewhat beneficial) learnings about TATF, our lumber & sale; I will attempt to cease trying to provide unsolicited advice/learnings/opinions--especially to those intent on damaging their own Tree Owner investments for whatever unfathomable reason!
Former TATF employees and TATF competitors are a different issue --to be dealt with separately.
In checking our available resources, at present, we are unable to purchase additional trees here; that could change in a very few months, however.
We will attempt to answer brief, specific questions; or, say we don't know.
great example of unsolicited advice
Dear "ma:"
You are clearly demonstrating my points.
Seems as though you told Steve how he should run his business (how to treat investors, prune the bifurcated native species, etc.), and...
you did not get all the information you wanted on your trip to C.R. and the farms in May.
You have advocated on this forum that:
1. TATF/TAH should have a large inventory of all varieties of lumber and post pix on their web site.
This is so anyone who wanted to put in a new floor, etc. would be able to order it.
You didn't seem to appreciate lumber is a commodity, sold by TATF in only container loads--finished to customer exacting specifications--like dentures.
2. TATF should hire someone to do only web posting.
You don't seem to realize the cost involved and that, probably, only the Brunners would have the knowledge and skills to do that task.
3. Steve should spend his valuable time reading every post on this forum and respond or adopt all these "great ideas."
If some customer/patient told you what a great idea it was to:
1. Display a complete line of available dentures, so your dental practice could show customers all the myriad of false teeth options.
2. That you should maintain personal contact with your dental patients using your web site or a HUB forum.
3. You should hire a PR person for your dental practice to keep all your dental patients informed.
What do you think your response would be; maybe the same as Steve's to your "great ideas?"
From what I read, TATF is spending full time trying to add high-volume, value-added production capability; sell products; and, trying to maximize IRR to all Tree Owners.
I repeat, what are you going to do with a thinning report; nice to have but you can't spend it!
You are obviously a smart, well-educated professional; why don't you use those skills to help your own Tree Owner investment?
Leave running the TATF business to the professionals.
Paradign shift: Ask 'em by email what they need/could use!
simply trying to stay positive and offer ideas
We see no benefit in "joining" some sort of private/clandestine consortium that probably includes competitors, former employees, and "malcontents on a mission."
Nothing to hide--open forum here is fine.
We have no unique knowledge of Teak H&P (harvest & process) costs; TATF has indicated that to fell, mill, & dry--$.29/B-F could be deducted from proceeds if you elect for them to sell your lumber.
This cost is to escalate/inflate at the same rate as teak lumber.
Our $.30 is just an escalation suggestion for 2010.
Since H&P would be deducted from proceeds anyhow; and, some folks want to get thin/harvest done now, our idea was to offer upfront H&P funds to get going.
Jan, are you trying to figure out how TATF could be more efficient in H&P?
What, exactly are you trying to "negotiate?"
TATF has 3-4MM B/F of experience; "ju" says he is talking only about young teak (fence posts) and says he has no specific knowledge how to do it for $.20; no idea where he got $.40?
Believe you are going to need heavy equipment--loggers, skidders, tractors, etc. to move mature trees and logs. Their costs, as well as labor and materials, need to be included in what Tree Owners are charged--don't you think?
We are simply trying to suggest how legitimate Tree Owners can be of assistance, in my opinion (no facts, other than what we read), in helping TATF/TAH/Raleo' become more fully functional, now!
Lets assume, shall we, that they have all the needed market research, customer analysis(both lumber and value-added products), recruiting/hiring, and game plans; we suggest these might be now helpful:
operating funds from trees you purchase
upfront your H&P costs &/or C&M fees
loans
proceeds from their lot sale
buy lumber
buy Raleo' products
capital for value-add equipment
Lets quit playing: "ain't it awful," my thinning report isn't here yet, or my "enlightened" email is not answered, or they won't take/return my obscene phone call.
Rather than offering baseless/opinionated, unsolicited advice (the very worst kind) to TATF/TAH/Raleo', suggest you offer any of the above and see what response you get.
Please report back here.
How about a paradigm shift here on this forum?