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The Hunt for the Unicorn
Here lies the crux of the MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM
JBI has painted themselves in a corner.
The permits and regulations require them to use non-recyclable plastic.
The machines require 'most optimal' plastic.
The cost to make non-recyclable plastic 'most optimal' is higher than the value of the fuel they can produce.
If you can make non-recyclable plastic 'most optimal' it can be sold for more money to recyclers than to put it into a machine and turn it into fuel. The problem is that it cost more to do this than the value of the plastic on the recycle market. If it can be done economically there are thousands of recyclers that are competing for this 'non-recyclable' plastic and they have an unfair advantage, they are classified as a recycler and receive subsidies to do this which makes it profitable for them (not the case for JBI). This is what keeps the price just out of reach for JBI and the P2O industry and makes P2O non-commercially viable to make fuel.
This catch 22 leaves JBI in an impossible position... to hunt for a Unicorn- 'most optimal' non-recyclable plastic.
With 92%+ of plastic headed to a landfill and therefore not 'most optimal', that leaves a fraction of the 8% that is processed by recyclers to be recycled for JBI to via for in the hopes of diverting, processing and using for P2O.
This explains the reason for the delays, low volume production and NEGATIVE GROSS PROFIT FUEL SALES.
FREE, unwashed, unsorted plastic has been determined to be problematic, hence the statement in the 10K- "we operated under the premise that we would be able to obtain significant quantities of waste plastic for free...
NOW we would be required to purchase this feedstock"
Which essentially means that the 92% of landfill bound plastic is off the table and JBI is needing the same 8% of plastic that recyclers need to turn it into recyclable plastic. JBI is now a competitor with recyclers for plastic that can be made 'most optimal'.
The window of opportunity narrows.
Either they rely on 'gifts' of FREE plastic that is 'most optimal' which are simply not available in the massive quantities needed... or they must purchase non-recyclable feedstock and process it (at what cost?) to make it 'most optimal'.
If they can purchase plastic that is ready to use it will undoubtedly be recyclable, in which case they are permitted not to use it.
If they can buy, process and turn non-recyclable plastic into 'most optimal' plastic the cost is higher than the fuel value.
If they can become the greatest recycler on earth and process plastic for less than the market value without receiving subsidies they have at best a 5-10% profit margin selling that plastic to the recycle industry... P2Oing that plastic will eat into that narrow 5-10% opportunity and no doubt make it nonprofitable.
Catch 22.... a unicorn
The MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM as I have pointed out months ago-
'most optimal' plastic has a higher value that the fuel that can be made from it.
Do you have any thoughts on why the prediction that JBI would make fuel to the tune of $10/brl turned out to be such an embarrassing flop?
The only thing good that happened was that they admitted in the 10K that they have to pay for plastic.
No FREE plastic = pay for plastic = no $10/brl fuel.
how perplexing.
My estimate is 55,000,000
Here is a start to the list-
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=85987615
JBI FAIL LIST
JBI CAN USE UNWASHED UNSORTED PLASTIC
"we operated under the premise that we would be able to obtain significant quantities of waste plastic for free...
NOW we would be required to purchase this feedstock"
Madison County...
not 'most optimal'... NO GO
What does JBII do with unwanted, unsorted and dirty plastic?
They make End-User Fuels at NEGATIVE GROSS PROFIT FUEL SALES
JBII $10M/Yr/Processor:
JBI admits in 10K that their entire premise is false.
SAIC (NYSE) VALIDATES JBII. $10M/Processor/Year:
Based on unrealistic numbers that have been proliferated by JBI.
REALITY TO MADE-UP PLASTIC VALUES:
"we operated under the premise that we would be able to obtain significant quantities of waste plastic for free...
NOW we would be required to purchase this feedstock"
TWO PROCESSORS DOING THIS NOW ONE MORE ON DECK:
NEGATIVE GROSS PROFIT FUEL SALES
FALSE CLAIMS VS. ACTUAL RESULTS:
JBI can use FREE, unsorted, unwashed plastic – FALSE
"we made the determination that in order to obtain the most optimal feedstock on a consistent basis... we would be required to purchase this feedstock"
CONCLUSION; $8.49 COST PER BARREL BASED ON NYSE SAI REPORT
Simply ANNIHILATED based on the admissions of REALITY in the 10K
JBI WILL KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF
JBI will also take the shirt off your back too.
SEC ALLEGEDLY INDICATED JBII IS NO SCAM, ISSUES TINY FINE FOR ACCOUTING ERRORS
But with that parking ticket the CEO got a 5 year license suspension...
never heard of having your license suspended for a minor infraction like a parking ticket
CASH FLOW POSITIVE FORECAST FOLLOWING THE HTF TRIAL
only if the HTF comes in cardboard boxes that they can recycle at a profit and prop up cardboard sales enough to offset the NEGATIVE GROSS PROFIT FUEL SALES
BOOTS ON THE GROUND REALITY VS. FALSE MATH FICTION
The oil (HTF) that had to be delivered must have accounted for half of the tanker traffic FOR DELIVERIES not fuel shipments.
NEARLY 5 YEARS AND $55,000,000 LATER
and still in startup mode
(anything I missed?)
VALIDATION, VINDICATION, ANNIHILATION
that should be a song... I got the JBI blues, validation, vindication, annihilation...
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/profile.aspx?user=379220
Based on what I have pointed out and the fact that the 10K confirms what I have pointed out... is it really possible to doubt my previous statements that have been validated by the 10K?
It it possible to really believe HTF is a fix for something... or an easy way to increase volume numbers for the 10K to keep shareholders at bay? (as I also predicted correctly)
Is it not clear that I have identified the MOST FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM?
Is it possible to go on deriving hope from a most obvious problem?
I am sure if I put up a bunch of money on JBI I would want to believe anything that makes me feel better about being misguided... but at some point the false enthusiasm fades and reality sets in.
The same 'most optimal' plastic that JBI needs has a higher value when it is recycled. Hence the conclusion- P2O not commercially viable to produce fuel.
RockTenn PLASTIC NOT MOST OPTIMAL, NO GO
From the 10K;
RockTenn PLASTIC NOT OPTIMAL, NO GO
From the 10K;
Feedstock Procurement
Historically, we operated under the premise that we would be able to obtain significant quantities of waste plastic for free, as we offered companies a more cost-effective disposal method for this waste stream. During the year, as we processed increasing amounts of waste plastic, we made the determination that in order to obtain the most optimal feedstock on a consistent basis, we would be required to purchase this feedstock. We continue to receive free plastic from time to time, however, we have concluded that these sources are not able to provide us with the amount of feedstock required to consistently feed the processors at the optimum feedrates.
This paragraph of the 10K is the nail in the coffin.
This is where JBI admits that the business model is not possible on the basis of FREE plastic.
This is the basis that was used to create all of the hype that JBI would be wildly successful.
This is the basis that was used to extrapolate the $10brl cost of fuel production.
This is the basis that was used to conclude that processors could make $10mill/year of fuel.
This is the basis that makes any SAIC conclusion incorrect.
This is the basis of the entire sales pitch.
This basis was admitted in the 10K to be unachievable, which in turn makes all of the numbers unachievable.
Now the problem is, as I have previously stated, that there is no way to get the plastic they need at a price that makes P2O commercially viable because JBI has way too many restrictions and a direction that has no possibility of success.
Funny thing about that...
JBI 10K- IRREFUTABLE VALIDATION THAT P2O IS NOT COMMERCIALLY VIABLE
Pick and choose your numbers to make it 'feel' good-
THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM VALIDATED
How many of my statements have been validated by the 10K?
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/profile.aspx?user=379220
There is no way JBI can become commercially viable when the price of plastic is more than the price of fuel.
They pumped oil through the machines just to get their numbers up for the quarter… they called it HTF but no one caught on. This left everyone speculating that this is some kind of fix for something but conveniently they never really elaborated. It’s the perfect cover since they used an excuse that this is a one time high cost but it is clear that there is no advantage in spending more on input than you get in output unless you simply needed to increase your volume numbers. Plus, it was easier to hide out in the open and easier to process than buying and hiding plastic numbers, so it gives them a more difficult to challenge cover for the ploy… clever.
In the end, it has become obvious that the company lied about FREE plastic and $10brl, just like I said, and I said they would need to buy plastic in order to stay within emissions standards and I was absolutely right, they stated that they have no choice but to buy plastic because the FREE plastic is difficult to come by, just won’t work, it will cost them too much to use FREE plastic and it fouls up their machines, process and output, just like I said.
Remember my many posts about “The Killer is in the Logistics” and once again I was spot on, the company said in the 10K-
“we experienced some challenges in logistics”
It’s almost like they read my posts and simply confessed… amazing!
It’s really a shame that all the hype and excitement was all founded on lies that they have now confessed to, they admit that there is no way to use unwashed, unsorted FREE plastic. This means that there is no way to produce oil at $10brl. This means that all of the references to third party validation was based on incorrect data and the $10mill/year processor is completely false. This also means that all of the projections of incredible profit margins that really made this company look like a great investment were completely fabricated based on misguided falsehoods that have been complexly ANNIHILATED by the 10K. This means that a lot of people were misled, misguided and scammed by guidance, PR’s and promotions that simply were not true. I think this can be considered fraud and the SEC would have a serious case if they can find even the slightest reference to JB knowing the truth and yet promoting otherwise, which I don’t think will be difficult to find if they focus an investigation specifically on this topic instead of just bookkeeping fraud.
I said that JBI is obviously not trying very hard to become commercially viable or they would not have painted themselves in such a corner with all of the permit and functionality regulations and limitations. Just like I said, Agilyx has a much better chance than JBI because they focused on the P2O problems and not the hype like JBI.
Also 100% correct about this entire JBI P2O company being a scam since they have no way to turn a profit when they have to pay for plastic. The truth of the matter is so clear now, simply put, if they can get some sucker company to sell them good sorted plastic that can run in their machines for less than recycle market value that they could make more money if they just sold that plastic to a recycler at market price since market price of the cheapest plastic is more than what they could make if they turned it into fuel!
The part that amazes me the most is how people are reading into the 10K and trying to put a positive spin on it. You can clearly see that everything that I have been posting has come to be correct, yet there is a lot of diversion and unstated assumptions that are being promoted to distract everyone form THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM that I so clearly defined – There is no way to produce FUEL at a profit from plastic when the value of the plastic is higher than the value of the FUEL.
It is also clear why they have not been running the machines for any length of time… If they did… the numbers would reveal the scam… The input cost of feedstock would be greater than the FUEL sales and this would shake out rather quickly, therefore they have to divert attention away from this as long as possible if they want to keep collecting paychecks.
Now, guess who is spending YOUR money based on all of the company’s well orchestrated lies-
Juicy Johnny and his jetset pals…
The problem is that the plastic that JBI needs has a market price of at least $600/ton.
Not counting the shipping cost.
The value of the fuel that they could make only comes up to $600 at best.
They have stated in the 10K that they must pay for plastic and they can not use FREE plastic due to 'logistic problems'
Based on the statements in the 10K it sure sounds like they are not going to be able to use the RockTenn plastic.
Since they can not use landfill plastic and they can not get (or economically process) enough FREE plastic and the permit says that they can not use plastic that can be recycled... it sounds like all they have to process is HTF (oil).
So, commercial viability is off the table.
And CPF... dreaming
BOTTOM LINE: NEGATIVE GROSS PROFIT FUEL SALES
P2O still not commercially viable.
Plastic cost are higher than Fuel values.
JBI can not use UNWASHED UNSORTED PLASTIC
JBI states that they can not use FREE plastic
JBI must PAY for plastic
JBI can not achieve $10mill/year from a processor
SAIC report uses false and misleading data
Outlandish claims ANNIHILATED
HTF is the term JBI used in their 10K to hide the fact that they processed 'large quantities' of oil in order to increase their volume numbers.
Management believes this was an important and necessary step to provide us with key production data as we continue to enhance our production roll-out strategies.
They worded it well but essentially the translation is-
Management believes processing oil was an important and necessary step to provide us with increased volume data as we continue to fabricate our production roll-out strategies to keep shareholders at bay so they don't think we are not doing anything.
I PREFER REALITY TO PAST, UNPROVEN, MADE-UP JBI VALUES:
The 10K states that the company has "negative gross profit related to our fuel sales"
This means it cost more to make that its worth.
Cherry pick a positive spin out of this any way you want "negative gross profit" still means "negative gross profit"
oh, but Dr, we will just pretend that the costs, overhead and reality don't apply and that we can just pick and chose the things that we can't really prove we can do consistently in order to try and make it all look good.
MADISON COUNTY IS SO EXCITED
JBI stated in their 10K that must pay for plastic,
I guess that means that they will be paying for Madison County's trash now???
Oh, wait, I think that means that they can not use Madison County's garbage, whew, good thing, JBI doesn't need any MORE expenses in their feedstock procurement.
NEWS FLASH
BASIS OF JBI OPERATIONS ANNIHILATED
JBI admits that they CAN NOT USE UNSORTED UNWASHED PLASTIC
NO WAY TO MAKE FUEL FOR $10/brl
NO WAY A PROCESSOR CAN MAKE $10mill/yr OF FUEL
And that
THE SAIC REPORT CONCLUSION IS BASED ON BAD NUMBERS
JBI further admits that
THEY HAVE LOGISTIC ISSUES
THEY CAN NOT PROCESS FREE WASTE PLASTIC
JBI MUST PAY FOR PLASTIC
Based on recent admissions by the company in the 10K attention should now be focused on WHEN they knew these important key pieces of information that have previously been vigorously touted in a positive light.
THE TIMING OF KNOWLEDGE IS THE BASIS OF A SCAM CONVICTION!
Now that the truth comes out, the biggest question is-
WAS THIS SIMPLY A BOOKKEEPING ERROR OR A HATCHED AND PERPETRATED FRAUD TO SELL STOCK?
NOT $10/ brl???
Say it isn't so...
It is also clear why they have not been running the machines for any length of time… If they did… the numbers would reveal the scam… The input cost of feedstock would be greater than the FUEL sales and this would shake out rather quickly, therefore they have to divert attention away from this as long as possible if they want to keep collecting paychecks.
If they have been collecting, processing and sorting FREE plastic for years (out of their home trash i'm sure) They just used it ALL last quarter along with oil they pumped through and called it HTF... This offset the numbers just enough to make it look good... but now what??? They will have to pay $600/ton to make $600 worth of fuel. Maybe they can hire another 55 employees so they can all save some FREE plastic to throw in with the next quarters oil, er, I mean HTF.
Oh and sale the price is now less than $600 since the average of the fouled naptha is so low and it is a percentage of the output... looks like a negative gain per ton at this point.
History of documented JBI problems-
All of the reasons JBI can not become commercially viable have been well documented in my posts-
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/profile.aspx?user=379220
emphasis on the bold topics
THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM
The 10K has now validated these posts and therefore it is clear that JBI can not turn a profit.
JBI has made a feeble attempt to show some kind of progress by;
pumping oil through the machines just to get their numbers up for the quarter… they called it HTF but no one caught on. This left everyone speculating that this is some kind of fix for something but conveniently they never really elaborated. It’s the perfect cover since they used an excuse that this is a one time high cost but it is clear that there is no advantage in spending more on input than you get in output unless you simply needed to increase your volume numbers. Plus, it was easier to hide out in the open and easier to process than buying and hiding plastic numbers, so it gives them a more difficult to challenge cover for the ploy… clever.
It has now come to light that JBI has been operating under falsehoods that has been admitted in the 10K.
It’s really a shame that all the hype and excitement was all founded on lies that they have now confessed to, there is no way to use unwashed, unsorted FREE plastic. This means that there is no way to produce oil at $10brl. This means that all of the references to third party validation was based on incorrect data and the $10mill/year processor is completely false.
This also means that all of the projections of incredible profit margins that really made this company look like a great investment were completely fabricated based on misguided falsehoods that have been complexly ANNIHILATED by the 10K.
This means that a lot of people were misled, misguided and scammed by guidance, PR’s and promotions that simply were not true.
This can be considered fraud and the SEC would have a serious case if they can find even the slightest reference to JB knowing the truth and yet promoting otherwise, which I don’t think will be difficult to find if they focus an investigation specifically on this topic instead of just bookkeeping fraud.
Agliyx uses a completely different method that utilizes a centrifuge that force separates contaminates before they ever reach the pyrolysis stage. It is a rather high-tech selective filter process that they have patented and from what I understand it seems that they have the ability to reclaim much more than just oil from the plastic and contaminates, they separately filter out each chemical of value and recapture them to be sold or reused. They also have secondary filters that do the same at the end of the process.
Beer & 4k,
I have not researched this company, only did a quick overview and see some technical details that stood out. My statement was based entirely on the fact that their website seems to indicate that they can process auto fluff and tires... if this is true they are in a much better position than JBIs limited stream of permit defining unattainable feedstock.
I did go on to indicate that I do not believe P2O will be able to successfully make fuel profitable until there is a shift in the 'powers that be'
in conclusion and for clarification; I can not say that GETH is a winner or not, only that they have a better chance from a technical standpoint and from the fact that they are run by someone that has a track record in the field (unlike JBI)
Side note to your post beer, as I pointed out in a previous post, something as simple as salt, which is harmless in its natural state, will produce hydrochloric acid when the chloride molecule in the salt reacts with the hydrogen molecule in the plastic in a pyrolysis reaction. It does not take much HCL to erode metal or burn your lungs, and since it is so acidic it tends to migrate quickly. Once the smallest pinhole is eroded in the machine to potential for oxygen to enter and cause an explosion is present. Perhaps only a small amount here and there... but give it a few days or a week and the integrity of the system is at risk.
These conclusions are based on the rejected patent application and the NYDEC Permit as well as an in depth background in pyrolysis and plastic recycling.
As far as back yard fires that are not always closely scrutinized by gov agencies, yes, you are correct. When it comes to constant monitoring of a process in a controlled environment it is a different story.
The concern should be there, it only takes 1 or 2 parts per million of some of the potential contaminates to begin a chain reaction. The potential to produce dangerous results is very high with even the smallest amount of certain contaminates in a pyrolysis process.
Yes, the 'type' of plastic will work in the JBI machines.
There are major potential problems however. Packaging tape, adhesives and strapping can all be made of or contain chemicals or compounds that will create chemical reactions that will cause problems.
Copper staples are another serious issue. (although not as common as they use to be since the price of copper has been so high)
Certain types of inks, labels and label adhesive can also be dangerous.
The problem here is that the JBI machines are the bottom of the barrel design. Even the new Chinese units have stainless steel and glass lined components that can handle harsh acids and they have components and scrubbers that separate these compounds out of the hydrocarbon vapor stream. It is a completely different patented process than JBIs approach.
Hello GETH,
Since JBI was part of the American Chemistry Council's research report in April of 2011 we studied them at length. Any company that was not part of their report we did not.
Just from a terse review, the company that you speak of, it appears that they have someone with a long history and credible knowledge of the plastics and recycling industry at the helm. Additionally, they appear to have a wide acceptance of feedstock, unlike JBI, including tires and rubber. The fact that they can use automotive fluff is very telling. JBI could not use automotive fluff without breaking their permit (there are a number of ingredients in fluff that are difficult to handle in pyrolysis and produce many acids and chemicals that are problematic)
Unlike JBI they seem to have a better chance of success, however; the powers that be will surely keep this in check. Until there is a direct link between control/profit and the powers that be, P2O will not succeed.
On the basis of plastic I believe that the RockTenn situation is troubling because RockTenn is a recycling company. If they can not get the plastic out of their waste stream at a profit it certainly will not be possible for JBI to utilize this waste stream to make fuel at a profit.
If the plastic can go in a JBI machine it can be recycled.
There is no condition that a stream of plastic fit for a JBI machine could not be recycled.
The problems that prevent a stream of plastic from being recycled are the same problems that prevent it from being used by JBI.
If it can be recycled, or used by JBI, it can fetch more money on the recycle market that it can being made into fuel.
The time, cost and effort would be better spent reclaiming the plastic to sell to a recycler and if that cost is great than the market price for that recycled plastic it is even greater than the value of the fuel that can be made.
The more problematic issue with the RockTenn deal is from a business side.
JBI must pay for this deal upfront. JBI is financially responsible for this deal and all aspects of it. The probability of recouping the initial investment is very low here and the probability of loosing money on this deal is very high imo. As long as JBI is holding the bag on this deal and RockTenn has minimal skin in the game its a losing proposition.
When the machines break, who pays to fix them JBI?
Who is responsible for the equipment necessary to reclaim the RockTenn plastic, JBI?
Who pays the fines or pays to resolve the issues with processing the plastic results in an issues regarding accidentally creating unwanted compounds that can be problematic to the environment, JBI? (the JBI machines are not equipped to handle common contaminates)
The RockTenn deal leaves JBI open ended on expenses and short on potential gains. This deal is simply another R&D experiment that JBI is paying for.
To answer all of the questions directed toward my statements let me say this-
JB made far reaching, overzealous and fantastic claims as far back as 2006 about P2O. Perhaps he believed them. However, as time and research continues and logical conclusions that should have been researched/drawn well before forming a public company have come to light, it is disturbing.
The problem is the same for every other P2O attempt (secret catalyst or not), and that is that the logistics and the value of plastic are greater than the value of the fuel that you can make from it.
Sure, it sounds great, too good to be true, very exciting, take garbage and turn it into fuel!
But the impression that the common person is guided into believing by JBI and its pompateers is that it is cheap and easy (FREE PLASTIC) to simply divert garbage directly into this magic machine and it comes out as fuel and solves the worlds plastic environmental problem.
The problem here is a common thread, recyclable plastic has a high value and its going up. This value is more than the fuel value.
The FREE plastic that goes to a landfill is going there for a reason, the cost involved to reclaim it from garbage is higher than its recycle market value.
The issue I have with JBI and the people that religiously preach its wonders is simple-
At some point it must become obvious that on paper this isn't sound and in the lab (JBI Plant) that it has proven that the facts and conclusions on paper are true.
JBI has a very limited machine that cannot handle all plastics nor can it handle a long list of common chemicals. This is because it is not designed to. The unintended chemical reactions that occur in a pyrolysis process are very problematic. The NYDEC Permit was written specifically to prevent those issues which in turn has further limited JBIs ability.
The biggest issue that JBI has now is not going to be in what it runs, it is going to be where to get something to run.
The limitation of only using non-recyclable plastic is the nail in the coffin.
This is because, once again, cost. it is like a stuck logic loop, go back to the above section on FREE plastic cost.
There are no sources of non-recyclable plastic that will not be worth more than the fuel that JBI can produce, and if there are due to lack of knowledge, I am quite sure there will be plenty of Plastic Recycle companies eager to educate the companies that are not yet on board with the recycling programs that can not only pay them for their waste plastic but also get them setup to receive extra cash from a recycle program subsidy.
Now, my problem is that JBI and its cheerleaders continue to make misleading statements, and they do not admit the truth. If this is intentional in order to sell stock and make money from it I do not know for sure but if I had to give a gut feeling based on the length of time and the grandiose fervor that is still ever so sharp, I would have to say yes, this is a directed deception designed to profit from others that are logically challenged and apt to believe too good to be true stories.
If you remove the paint from the car bumpers is that considered washing or sorting?
Regardless, you can't put most auto paints in the JBI machines or you will break the NYDEC Permit!
Maybe they will all be brand new, unpainted, Mazda bumpers that can't be recycled because recyclers don't accept Mazda bumpers, only bumpers from every other auto maker on the planet.
The same issue holds true for RockTenn, if the plastic could be used by a JBI machine it could be sold as recycled plastic for more money than the value of the fuel.
The cost to get the plastic out of that waste stream and make it useable for the recycle market is obviously more that the value of that plastic or RockTenn (well skilled at recycling) would have done it already.
JBI has already burned 2 years on the 10 year contract and no great hurry has been put on this by either side... On the inside i'm sure everyone knows what's up... perhaps this goes forward as an experiment that RockTenn could possibly gain from, but JBI isn't going to make it happen without a lot of upfront and daily expense. Maybe it can be a good exercise for all involved, but at who's expense?
The writing is on the wall man
no 'what if's' about it
JBI has painted themselves in a corner with the limitations of operation and the specifics in the permit
This is a dead horse
dead unicorn would be nice
at least it would prove that unicorns exist
2.4 million pounds
that's 1200 tons
that's only 100 hours worth per machine at max feed rate
so in 4 years all they managed to buy is enough plastic to run permit testing?
and how many issues, stoppages, delays and bs did that precious 1200 tons of purchased plastic cause them...
now lets see how they could handle free imaginary garbage in a COMMERCIALLY VIABLE PRODUCTION CAPACITY
oh, that's right, no plastic means not running
paying for plastic means only 1200 tons in 4 years and still no profit...
damn this b otch is DOA
Which takes us right back to the new topic-
New Topic, JBI Profitability...How Will You Know?
Based on what I have read here it seems that JBI is less than forthcoming on financials and details that are provided to the public and its shareholders.
Is this true? open for discussion
If so, how will the shareholders know if JBI has purchased plastic and how much they pay for it?
Will it be a line item in expenses?
Will the value be revealed?
Or will it be grouped into some arbitrary category that is easily overlooked or impossible to breakout? (like how they mix revenues in a way that obscures P2O fuel production numbers).
Maybe buying clean, sorted plastic has already been done over the last year or two... or four??? (How Do You Know?)
The point here is simple-
It is impossible to run a P2O machine at a commercially viable level, to produce fuel, since the cost of the plastic OR the cost to process FREE plastic is higher than the value of the fuel that can be made from it.
Therefore;
JBI is currently in a position to demonstrate production and report the numbers. In order for them to do this they must SPEND more for feedstock than they COLLECT in fuel sales.
So IF they report ANY significant fuel production in Q4...
How will anyone know if they did it AND actually made a PROFIT?
With $55,000,000 in expenses so far, is it possible that there are hidden costs for plastic?
Could JBI FAKE profitability??? Commercial viability???
Could JBI have made an assertive effort to wiggle around the numbers in a way that allows them to gain from doing this?
Let's face it, if they provide validation to commercial viability it could do wonders for them.
If they get creative on the books and massage the numbers for the reports they could very well FAKE IT for a while and HOW WOULD YOU REALLY KNOW?
MOTIVE-
Time and Reality has forced JBI to PUT UP OR SHUT UP
They know they can not P2O fuel for profit (hence the 4 years of not running and constant excuses)
They now need a LAST HURRAH in order to CASH OUT
What better way to pump the price of the stock, FAKE VIABILITY
How would you know?
Until your investment goes down the tubes once they-
"go on... take the money and run
Hooh hooh hooh!
go on... take the money and run
5x rapid clap
Haaah ooooawoll"
steve miller
THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM still REMAINS and now it is worse-
Knowing this business very well I can tell you the chances of JBI finding sources of feedstock that will comply with the NYDEC Permit are slim to none.
Which takes me back to
THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM REMAINS-
You can’t turn a profit when the value of plastic is GREATER than the value of the fuel that P2O can make from it!
Since the machines require SPECIFIC types of plastic, it cost more to sort the plastic than it is worth.
If you could sort SPECIFIC types of plastic to put in the machines,
YOU COULD SELL THAT SORTED SPECIFIC PLASTIC FOR MORE MONEY THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL YOU CAN MAKE!
IF YOU HAVE TO BUY SORTED PLASTIC OF A SPECIFIC TYPE IT WILL COST MORE THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL YOU CAN MAKE!
If plastic was easy or cost effective to sort, it wouldn’t go to a landfill
IT WOULD BE SOLD FOR MORE MONEY THAN THE VALUE OF THE FUEL THAT JBI CAN MAKE
www.plasticsnews.com/resin/recycled-plastics/current-pricing#
And now that it has been defined that JBI must use NON-RECYCLABLE, NON-CONTAMINATED, CLEAN, SORTED, PLASTIC
they need to find a plastic unicorn
What they need to run the machines DOES NOT EXIST!
I agree...
No mater how you interpret it the plastic must be sorted in order to be sure it does not contain any of the plastics that are not permitted.
Can you imagine the resources necessary to run 3 processors at 4 tons each per hour?
That's 12 tons of plastic that needs to be checked, cleaned, sorted and verified every hour!
That's an immense amount of tractor trailer loads non stop...
What are the chances of not accidentally using the wrong type of plastic?
How about the chances of not getting any chemicals mixed in that could cause an issue?
At the best case maybe 10 tractor trailer loads of perfect feedstock every day... and not a single issue that can potentially break the NYDEC Permit...
Do you think that much plastic headed to a landfill (garbage) is going to be well segregated and kept uncontaminated and wrapped up in a nice bow? And at no cost???
(If a company had that much good stuff to ship to JBI there will certainly be a plastic recycle company chomping at the bit to buy that plastic for a good buck. Bet there are plastic paparazzi following trucks in NF to make a quick buck on those deals, if they really existed!)
Simple,
OUTRIGHT LIE BY JBI
That would make it RECYCLABLE PLASTIC
which would break the permit
The alleged claim of JBI is that they can use UNSORTED, UNWASHED PLASTIC WASTE
Another proven OUTRIGHT LIE BY JBI
www.dec.ny.gov/dardata/boss/afs/permits/929110034800002.pdf
Avoiding The Obvious?
Still no thoughts, comments or input on the topic of JBI only being able to show P2O fuel profitability by faking it???
We are not talking about melting here... its all about the chemical reaction that occurs when hydrocarbons are cracked and the formation of undesirable compounds that occur in the presence of contaminates.
Some of the simplest compounds found in everyday 'dirt' can produce deadly formations of harsh chemicals that can damage the machines, the workers, the community and the environment.
The DEC Permit was written specifically to prevent these types of issues and obviously contains very limiting specifications for a good reason.
Something as simple as SALT on the plastic can cause a major issue.
The machines don't care, but the chemical reaction that takes place in them will get people's attention in a hurry.
Let's see how unwashed plastic with a little salt on it fairs- Sodium Chloride NaCl... just one of a long list of common compounds that can be found on unwashed plastic waste that will cause serious issues.
So, now that the topic of using UNWASHED, UNSORTED PLASTIC has been ANNIHILATED...
Let's get back to the new topic - HOW DO YOU KNOW IF JBI CAN TURN A PROFIT
BUT,
From the DEC Permit it seems that there is a more significant issue-
New Topic, JBI Profitability...How Will You Know?
Based on what I have read here it seems that JBI is less than forthcoming on financials and details that are provided to the public and its shareholders.
Is this true? open for discussion
If so, how will the shareholders know if JBI has purchased plastic and how much they pay for it?
Will it be a line item in expenses?
Will the value be revealed?
Or will it be grouped into some arbitrary category that is easily overlooked or impossible to breakout? (like how they mix revenues in a way that obscures P2O fuel production numbers).
Maybe buying clean, sorted plastic has already been done over the last year or two... or four??? (How Do You Know?)
The point here is simple-
It is impossible to run a P2O machine at a commercially viable level, to produce fuel, since the cost of the plastic OR the cost to process FREE plastic is higher than the value of the fuel that can be made from it.
Therefore;
JBI is currently in a position to demonstrate production and report the numbers. In order for them to do this they must SPEND more for feedstock than they COLLECT in fuel sales.
So IF they report ANY significant fuel production in Q4...
How will anyone know if they did it AND actually made a PROFIT?
With $55,000,000 in expenses so far, is it possible that there are hidden costs for plastic?
Could JBI FAKE profitability??? Commercial viability???
Could JBI have made an assertive effort to wiggle around the numbers in a way that allows them to gain from doing this?
Let's face it, if they provide validation to commercial viability it could do wonders for them.
If they get creative on the books and massage the numbers for the reports they could very well FAKE IT for a while and HOW WOULD YOU REALLY KNOW?
MOTIVE-
Time and Reality has forced JBI to PUT UP OR SHUT UP
They know they can not P2O fuel for profit (hence the 4 years of not running and constant excuses)
They now need a LAST HURRAH in order to CASH OUT
What better way to pump the price of the stock, FAKE VIABILITY
How would you know?
Until your investment goes down the tubes once they-
"go on... take the money and run
Hooh hooh hooh!
go on... take the money and run
5x rapid clap
Haaah ooooawoll"
steve miller