Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
WFC 1.2B are part of the 8B
.. this is not incremental.
Thanks hahawin !!
You are right.. it seems to me that this is the case b) of my previous post
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081204000000000037.pdf
..in page 3/point 6 it states clearly that on Oct. 14th 2008 The Bank of New York resigned as Trustee and then WFC became Trustee.
So it seems that we are where we were before. This is not incremental debt but the original one that amounted 8B.
No changes in the asset/debt equation.
We know the debt. And we know that less than 1B out of these 8B are due during 2009.
With the 8K filing we know the "book value according to accounting rules" of assets ( which is likely the "bottom" value ) but the BIG uncertainty remains in the market value of these assets ...
it's all about leaving time to let the process work .. a bit like with making wine.. it involves some risks but at the end you get wine.
Cheers...
WFC $1.2B Claim
In the original BK filing there is a clear list of the top 20 debts. In the top 20 list of creditors WFC is not present as Trustee at all. The only trustee that is listed is Bank of New York.
I wonder how would it could be possible for WMI not to reflect in the filing such a substancial debt as the one claimed by WFC. So my first assumption is that this is neither a mistake nor intentional failure to report it.
Based on this I reach two possible options:
a) This debt is really a debt of WM Bank (not WMI's, the parent company) .. therefore this is now a hot potato for JPM and or FDIC. And therefore WFC would be positioning itself in the WMI BK process trying to keep open a way to grant that its customers get paid in case FDIC or JPM try to leave through the court process this hot potato in WMI side.
b) These notes were transfered from Bank of New Yourk to WFC at any point in time, for WFC to resell them to its customers. In which case this debt is already included in the $8B reported initially.
I understand that option b) is the most likely one.
Of course I am speculating here and I would appreciate any clarification, but I just simply cannot belive that WMI did not include from the beginning this substancial debt in the original BK request.
Any thoughts?
Dumb is right about a B.Plan..
WMI is a holding company and as initial step it has to settle its basic value as it is today: assets/debts/cashflows/ etc .. but this is just a first step .. likely very positive for pps...
.. but based in this first step it's a must for the pps to stabilze and go up to present a B. Plan.
And as a holding company it can present it as many other do. It may be a plan for creating or reinforcing banking operations ( of its subsidiaries) , for insurance operations (of its subsidiaries) , for disinvesting what in their plan would not be considered strategic to reinvest in what would be considered strategic subsidiaries...
... as example we already know they plan - an they requested to the court - to disinvest in some of their Private Equity stakes..
But, yes.. to go an stay well above $1 they will need to present a clear B.Plan and make it clear and atractive to analists and investors. By the way, .. there must be a reason for WMI having hired a couple of weeks ago the services of a company specialized in relationships with shareholders..
It will take time but it'll come ... in this Dumb Indian is right.
... unless a buyout to grasp the cash and the NOL happens before it.
Insiders dumping shares?
The day insiders really dump we will really notice.
Volume today is 16M shares ( out of 1.7B ) .. it means less than $600k.. This is not at all a major sell off from any insider.
This is short term traders and flippers surfing in the waves created by:
- MMs that keep pps at the bid 80% (*) of time with their automated micro orders at the bid .. so helping their customers (**) as well as flippers to load cheap. This wave pushes pps down
- Proximity of court hearings that with the current data apparently will value WMI well above the $60M it's worth today (total market capitalization with pps at 0.035). This wave pushes pps up.
Even if you add up several days going down or several days going up the volumes are not so relevant.
(*) If most of time the last pps is at bid, the randomly comming retail orders of normal investors that sell at "market-value" are closed at the bid. And some of these are not micro orders but significant ones.
(**) I have not any firm clue of who is loading, but these 3 funds that have acknowledged recently "substancial ownership" have bought the shares somehow.
Of course these are my opinions and I may be wrong .. however pure observation of the volume does not show any big bangs..
txs Gitano.
30 secs after orders at the ask comes the micro order at the bid.. so most of time last price is at the bid ...and then again normal orders from normal investors at "market value" get closed at the bid...
the problem of low volume-no-news days is that this play works well allowing someone to keep loading at the bid...
.. that's life ...
.. but I am convinced that the only thing that really matters over time it's not these days pps but the court process (hiden and/or visible) as well as the asset/debt balance.
Assets/Liabilities accounting rules !!
I am neither certatin about US accounting rules nor an accountant expert.
But I do have some basic knowledge about "globaly accepted accounting rules".
One of the key-core generaly accepted accounting rule is that the books should report worst case scenarions:
- Debts and liabilities: should appear in its worst case view, it means that the books should show in liabilities the full exposure to debts as well as potential exposures that may become real..
- Assets: should appear in its worst case view.
A) It normally means that the book value of a tangible asset is the original investement in the asset minus the cumulative depreciation over years. In the example of RState it normally undervalue the assets because RState bought long ago in the long run usually increases value. Equipment, IT, etc, shows up as purchase value minus depreciation. Again - in the case of RState - tipically the value increase significantlly over many years. ( not the case for investments done in the last few years).
B) In the case of untangible assets that has clear dinamic but fair market value such as stake in public companies, bonds, etc..the rule forces to show in the books the last known fair market value in the investment... ( this is what killed the balansheets of companies holdign junk-mortage related assets ).
C) In the case of untangible assets such as stake in companies that have not public valuation - tipically non-public companies - the accounting rules woulsd force to show the original investment ( in normal conditions lower than current market value in case of these stakes being sold). The real value of such assets shows up in books only once the asset has been sold. The exeption may be considered by auditors in case there are clear objective signs that the original investment has been depreciated. In this case the value in the books would reflect this depreciation ( again worst case scenario rule).
D) There are other elements such as intelectual property (patents or acummulated R&D), legal rights, brand value, customer base, signed future contracts, etc... that usually are reflected as Good Will asset. Here there are some depreciation rules to be applied.
As I said before I am not an expert but besides the cash, and possibly some good will related to WM brand, most WMI assets are in groups A (remaining real state) and C (stake in non public subsidiaries).
It means that formal accounting books - and now I mean the last 8k filing - should reflect the worst cases and not necesarily market value.
Example: a stake in a PE fund that invested 5 years ago in tech companies, would show the original value invested, not considering the value - normally higher ) of the companies in which that fund invested. Remember that if these investments have been obviously depreciated because the PE did a lousy job the auditors would force to show the depreciation.
Other example: the purchase of a building 15 or 20 years ago would appear valued as the original investment. Likely today is worth much more, but the companies are not allowed - oftenly not even interested in order hide profit and save taxes - to reflect that increased value until the building is sold.
Other example: the original investment in WM Bank should appear valued as zero, whatever big it was originally ... there are obvious reasons to erase it from WMI balance sheet...
Why is this relevant? .. because 8k doc. must always show the worst - according to accounting rules, specially if presented to the court - possible valuation of assets.
For me this mean that now we do have a bottom valuation in this 8k doc. If WMI manages to sell some of these non public subsidiaries at higher price than this worst case valuation reflected in the 8k - and only once they do it - then this new higher value will inmediatly show up as additional asset value ( assets ) and as retained profit ( liability/equity) in the balance sheet and as profit in the P/L... therefore producing inmediate value to shareholders.
Any possible buyer would evaluate and know pretty well the difference between book value shown in the 8k and possible real value.
I think I am not making here any conceptual mistake, but I would appreciate a reply from someone familiar with US accounting ...
ABSOLUTELY A "MUST READ" txs Jerle to highlight it.!!
... and txs to Bophan.
Pleasure .. we are all learning here
Cheers.
Yes, and he seems to be pretty right... it's likely going to be more than $20B NOl
... the problem I see with the NOL tax benefits is that this is a worthy asset only in case of a buyout by a company that is significantly profitable. ... there aren't that many companies these days in good conditions to "have to pay $B" in taxes over the next years. Only companies in such situation would take full benefit of it.
Therefore it is a very valuable asset but not so much as other like king-cash, tangible real state or stakes in worthy subsidiaries ..these have value even in case of exiting BK without buyout.
.. maybe I am wrong but it's the way I see it.
Cheers.
You are right...
with exceptions almost always about 2 to 5 seconds after any order at the ask ...comes a micro order at the bid. I guess they have those micro orders programed.
...the result is that 80% of time the last closed order is at bid price so the randomly comming the retail orders "at-market-price" almost always close at the bid .. and some of them are big..
... until news come this stock will be influenced by these patterns..... this helps someones to load cheap.
.. but today I think the general market mood is also influencing big time...
Cheers.
By the way JPM and City are below 10%...
CISCO down .. 8%
.. I guess it's frustrating as well ...
... but they aren't so undervalued as WAMUQ...
Frustrated!! ..daily pps is meaningless .
Today aprox. $700k have been traded. 14M shares Compared with more than 1.7B shares ... and it has dived today ... as it went up past days.
In my opinion neither pps short term evolution nor charts have too much meaning.
The only important thing over time is the assets vvs debt (specially cash and short term debt). And frustrating or not, this hasn't changed these weeks.
It will take time to get it visible and firm in the court. That's it.
For the ones than can hold I would suggest to be patient or depending on their situation use these days to buy cheap. But at least I will not get trap into panic or frustration.
For the one's that cannot hold long .. I would suggest just to sell and move to other place or stay flipping .. here there is a good choice for low volume flipping.
I belive this stock is a great opportunity because is a very unique BK case and as far as I have seen anywhere it's extremelly undervalued.
But it's my opinion... and although I think the court process will favour WMI ...I don't know for sure. I guess none knows. I am just making a concious decision based in the data or facts I know about.
And I using today to buy and lower my entry point.
Cheers.
The P/L of a holding company is composed essencially by two elements:
- Consolidation of operating subsidiaries P/Ls .
- Profits/losses comming from buying or selling stake in the subisidiaries - which affects the P/L through the influence in the holding balance sheet.
- In terms of cash flows the holding either inject cash to subsidiaries (and/or backs debts of subsidiaries if needed) or detracts cash from its subsidiaries ( and or uses a stake in a subsidiary to back holding's debt, or any other subsidiary's debt)
If you want the biggest example of a holding company .. GE is a holding company ... and as you can guess they do have profits and losses ..
Cheers.
List of subsidiaries.
You have them below. I am sure the value of these ones - estimated based on the pre-BK accounting - are included in the 32B. Probably there is also significant value of real state that we do not know about.
Possible all these assets have lost value in these market conditions. But if not sold off in a rush they likely be a significant pile of $B.
List:
WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES
110 East 42nd Operating Company, Inc.
620-622 Pellhamdale Avenue Owners Corporation
Accord Realty Management Corporation
ACD2
ACD3
ACD4
Ahmanson Developments, Inc.
Ahmanson GGC LLC
Ahmanson Insurance, Inc.
Ahmanson Land Company
Ahmanson Marketing, Inc.
Ahmanson Obligation Company
Ahmanson Residential 2
Ahmanson Residential Development
Bryant Financial Corporation
California Reconveyance Company
CCB Capital Trust IV
CCB Capital Trust IX
CCB Capital Trust V
CCB Capital Trust VI
CCB Capital Trust VII
CCB Capital Trust VIII
Clayton Blackbear, Inc.
Commercial Loan Partners L.P.
CRP Properties, Inc.
Dime Capital Partners, Inc.
Dime Commercial Corp.
Dime CRE, Inc.
Dime Mortgage of New Jersey, Inc.
ECP Properties, Inc.
The E-F Battery Accord Corporation
F.C. LTD.
FA California Aircraft Holding Corporation
FA Out-of-State Holdings, Inc.
Flower Street Corporation
Great Western FS Corporation
Great Western Service Corporation Two
H.F. Ahmanson & Company
H.S. Loan Corporation
Harmony Agency, Inc.
HCP Properties Holdings, Inc.
HCP Properties, Inc.
HFC Capital Trust I
HHP Investment, LLC
HMP Properties, Inc.
Home Crest Insurance Services, Inc.
HS Loan Partners LLC
Irvine Corporate Center, Inc.
Ladue Service Corporation
Long Beach Securities Corp.
Marion Insurance Company, Inc.
Marion Street, Inc.
Mid Country Inc.
Murphy Favre Housing Managers, Inc.
Murphy Favre Properties, Inc.
NAMCO Securities Corp.
Nickel Purchasing Company, Inc.
Norstar Mortgage Corp.
North Properties, Inc.
Pacific Centre Associates LLC
Pacoima Investment Fund LLC
PCA Asset Holdings LLC
Pike Street Holdings, Inc.
Plainview Inn, Inc.
Providian Bancorp Services
Providian Leasing Corporation
Providian Mauritius Investments LTD
Providian Services Corporation
Providian Services LLC
Providian Technology Services Private Limited
Reverse Exchange Corporation
Rivergrade Investment Corp.
Riverpoint Associates
Robena Feedstock LLC
Robena LLC
Savings of America, Inc.
Seafair Securities Holdings Corp.
Second and Union LLC
Seneca Funding (UK) Limited
Seneca Funding LLC
Seneca Funding Management LLC
Seneca Funding Trust
Seneca Holdings, Inc.
Seneca Newco LLC
Seneca Street, Inc.
Sivage Financial Services LLC
Snohomish Asset Holdings LLC
SoundBay Leasing LLC
Stockton Plaza, Incorporated
Strand Capital LLC
Sutter Bay Associates LLC
Sutter Bay Corporation
Thackeray Funding Corp.
Thackeray Funding Partners
Thackeray Holdings Corp.
University Street, Inc.
WaMu 1031 Exchange
WaMu Asset Acceptance Corp.
WaMu Capital Corp.
WaMu Insurance Services, Inc.
WaMu Investments, Inc.
Washington Mutual Asset Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Bank
Washington Mutual Bank fsb
Washington Mutual Brokerage Holdings, Inc.
Washington Mutual Capital Trust 2001
Washington Mutual Community Development, Inc.
Washington Mutual Finance Group LLC
Washington Mutual Life Insurance Company of California, a Stock
Insurer
Washington Mutual Mortgage Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding LLC
Washington Mutual Trade Service Limited
Washington Mutual-Seattle Art Museum Project Owners Association
Western Service Co.
WM Aircraft Holdings LLC
WM Asset Holdings Corp.
WM Citation Holdings, LLC
WM Enterprises & Holdings, Inc.
WM Funds Disbursements, Inc.
WM Marion Holdings LLC
WM Mortgage Reinsurance Company, Inc.
WM Specialty Mortgage LLC
WM Winslow Funding LLC
WMB St. Helens LLC
WMBFA Insurance Agency, Inc.
WMFS Insurance Services, Inc.
WMGW Delaware Holdings LLC
WMHFA Delaware Holdings LLC
WMI Investment Corp.
WMI Rainier LLC
WMICC Delaware Holdings LLC
WMRP Delaware Holdings LLC
Yellowstone Venture, Inc.
WAMUQ: WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES ...
Chapter 11 Filing said they had $32Bil
in Assets and this looks good to me ...
WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES
110 East 42nd Operating Company, Inc.
620-622 Pellhamdale Avenue Owners Corporation
Accord Realty Management Corporation
ACD2
ACD3
ACD4
Ahmanson Developments, Inc.
Ahmanson GGC LLC
Ahmanson Insurance, Inc.
Ahmanson Land Company
Ahmanson Marketing, Inc.
Ahmanson Obligation Company
Ahmanson Residential 2
Ahmanson Residential Development
Bryant Financial Corporation
California Reconveyance Company
CCB Capital Trust IV
CCB Capital Trust IX
CCB Capital Trust V
CCB Capital Trust VI
CCB Capital Trust VII
CCB Capital Trust VIII
Clayton Blackbear, Inc.
Commercial Loan Partners L.P.
CRP Properties, Inc.
Dime Capital Partners, Inc.
Dime Commercial Corp.
Dime CRE, Inc.
Dime Mortgage of New Jersey, Inc.
ECP Properties, Inc.
The E-F Battery Accord Corporation
F.C. LTD.
FA California Aircraft Holding Corporation
FA Out-of-State Holdings, Inc.
Flower Street Corporation
Great Western FS Corporation
Great Western Service Corporation Two
H.F. Ahmanson & Company
H.S. Loan Corporation
Harmony Agency, Inc.
HCP Properties Holdings, Inc.
HCP Properties, Inc.
HFC Capital Trust I
HHP Investment, LLC
HMP Properties, Inc.
Home Crest Insurance Services, Inc.
HS Loan Partners LLC
Irvine Corporate Center, Inc.
Ladue Service Corporation
Long Beach Securities Corp.
Marion Insurance Company, Inc.
Marion Street, Inc.
Mid Country Inc.
Murphy Favre Housing Managers, Inc.
Murphy Favre Properties, Inc.
NAMCO Securities Corp.
Nickel Purchasing Company, Inc.
Norstar Mortgage Corp.
North Properties, Inc.
Pacific Centre Associates LLC
Pacoima Investment Fund LLC
PCA Asset Holdings LLC
Pike Street Holdings, Inc.
Plainview Inn, Inc.
Providian Bancorp Services
Providian Leasing Corporation
Providian Mauritius Investments LTD
Providian Services Corporation
Providian Services LLC
Providian Technology Services Private Limited
Reverse Exchange Corporation
Rivergrade Investment Corp.
Riverpoint Associates
Robena Feedstock LLC
Robena LLC
Savings of America, Inc.
Seafair Securities Holdings Corp.
Second and Union LLC
Seneca Funding (UK) Limited
Seneca Funding LLC
Seneca Funding Management LLC
Seneca Funding Trust
Seneca Holdings, Inc.
Seneca Newco LLC
Seneca Street, Inc.
Sivage Financial Services LLC
Snohomish Asset Holdings LLC
SoundBay Leasing LLC
Stockton Plaza, Incorporated
Strand Capital LLC
Sutter Bay Associates LLC
Sutter Bay Corporation
Thackeray Funding Corp.
Thackeray Funding Partners
Thackeray Holdings Corp.
University Street, Inc.
WaMu 1031 Exchange
WaMu Asset Acceptance Corp.
WaMu Capital Corp.
WaMu Insurance Services, Inc.
WaMu Investments, Inc.
Washington Mutual Asset Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Bank
Washington Mutual Bank fsb
Washington Mutual Brokerage Holdings, Inc.
Washington Mutual Capital Trust 2001
Washington Mutual Community Development, Inc.
Washington Mutual Finance Group LLC
Washington Mutual Life Insurance Company of California, a Stock
Insurer
Washington Mutual Mortgage Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding LLC
Washington Mutual Trade Service Limited
Washington Mutual-Seattle Art Museum Project Owners Association
Western Service Co.
WM Aircraft Holdings LLC
WM Asset Holdings Corp.
WM Citation Holdings, LLC
WM Enterprises & Holdings, Inc.
WM Funds Disbursements, Inc.
WM Marion Holdings LLC
WM Mortgage Reinsurance Company, Inc.
WM Specialty Mortgage LLC
WM Winslow Funding LLC
WMB St. Helens LLC
WMBFA Insurance Agency, Inc.
WMFS Insurance Services, Inc.
WMGW Delaware Holdings LLC
WMHFA Delaware Holdings LLC
WMI Investment Corp.
WMI Rainier LLC
WMICC Delaware Holdings LLC
WMRP Delaware Holdings LLC
Yellowstone Venture, Inc.
I signed both a week ago and I appreciate what you are doing.
Txs.
I find it similar to the FDIC proposed agreement, ... the 3 categories, etc ..
Am I wrong?
Yes Climber, you are likely right...
even if we go very down or if there are more delays it's unlikely that the big owners would unload heavily.. I see your point ... the logic that may play with normal stocks is not applicable with these pinks..
.. as you said it would not make sense for them (the big owners) ... some more $M lost more or less would not make a difference in their case ... better wait and see the long run that unload these days..
...
Cheers..
..
Many signs that you are rigth Wamook .. and as you said it's going to require to be patient...
Thanks ..
Good stuff Wamook!!Thanks!...but
Its clear and obvious the legal need to show details of any item in the books before formally claiming ownership of any asset or liability .... and as you very well said ... this will take time.
however ... it's difficult for me to belive that by today all parties - except maybe the creditors - do not have a fairly good vision of the general picture of what major assets and what major liabilities belong to whom.
I say this because even in these turbulent days, things do not change overnight. I mean WM board, its audtors and likely the banking and stock exchange regulators are supposed to have been receiving and analizing regularily details of WM holding, WM Bank and even most critical subsidiaries.
Any of these entities - subsidisries included - are supposed to have a governance model that until the day of the seizure should have given transparency to their investors, suppliers, taxes andministration and other regulators.
Specifically and based on all those presvious flows of information, I just cannot imaging that the main stakeholders in this billionare gamble don't have yet figured out a fairly accurate picture of the WMI and WMB financial situation.
Even considering items potentially subject to future litigation, by today they likely have a best-to-worst case scenarios for both entities: WMI and WMB.
Why I think this is relevant?
Because this "scenarios" based picture may be good enough to figure out values for possible buyout or even "buy-in-by-TPG" negotiations. Or at least good enough to asses if there is or there isn't a viable future for WMI.
My perception is that the fact that these constant delays - specially about the 4.4B - did not generate a major sell offs by some major WMI owners shows that they play with scenarios that are good for WMI future.
I do not relate this with the positive pps evolution (low volume) of these two last days - likely driven by general market mood.
But I relate this perception on the fact that pps hasn't just dived abruptly with large volume when the the last 4.4b delay was announced.
I foresee good days for flippers ( ups & downs in pps) but I expect strong owners to hold tight their shares.
- Brande's request
- Ok to transfer money to one subsidiary
- Some hirings
Many of these have objections by the FDIC
I think there is also a "conference" among the parties about the assets remaining in WMI.
Cheers.
Details:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081124000000000005.pdf
Nop !! only the 4.4B topic was postponed..
Busy hearing isn't it?
They started at 10:30 EST and no news yet.
Other times news came faster, didn't they?
Let's hope the ask keep holding.. 0.04 are still very close in terms of L2 volume.
why WMI accepted ?
something is going on behind .. I don't see any other possible explanation. do you?
z is a motion to postpone or is an order?
all the parties agreed in the 4.4b postponment?
The one at SBSH is the one that pushed it down from 0.04 and is the only one now at 0.039. He finally got impatient.
The good news is that L2 now shows good way up above 0.04.
Z ...you joking aren't you ?
the well known $3 orders (100/200 etc shares per order) at the bid are working very well against us ....
... the low $ volume makes us easy target for manipulation once again..
... we need news and very visible news in the press... that is the only way to jump in volume and avoid this manipulation
nonsense ceiling at 0.038
The guy in SBSH with the big order at 0.038 is killing our race. Leaving that order visible there with current low volumes is a nonesense.
I am even afraid he will get nervous and start following the bid at any moment and make it go down again.
Why leaving it so visible???
Shorts running into problems..?
how could we make this known to the one staying in the mud selling at 0.0335 and 0.034?
From other board:
------------
i found this on another board
http://finance.google.com/group/google.f...
I would like to see everyone doing this, as this is the best legal way
to protect our shares from being borrowed by the broker, and also our
only way to push this share into the $1-10 range or more.
I thought of setting the values to whatever the 52week high used to be
for WMI.
WAMUQ - $36-38
WAMPQ - $1200
WAMKQ - $25-28
WAHUQ - $55-60
There are now about 7m in short sold shares out there that have to be
covered by buying our shares. The total floating shares are 17m, and
the total shorted is 24m .... we can be in control of the game, please
all, set SELL LIMIT oders for the above amounts... those numbers are
far better than any buyout scenario, and this if done by everyone will
push a deal to be done faster.
No potential WMI BUYER wants this share to skyrocket before they offer
their deal. I believe that by doing this we can all help WMI and get a
sweet deal ourselves. Please spread the word.
In the event that your shares dont get sold, you are still protecting
them from being borrowed and SHORT SOLD, which indeed affects our
price. I discovered this by accident, but the demand is far higher
than our supply. So, there are more buyers out there than sellers. It
is our chance to turn around the table.
And why the judge would approve this?
Pacer is supposed to be a tool for transparency isn't it?
Isn't this censorship ?
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081117000000000005.pdf
OK!TPG on board Zardwi any comment or further doubt?
"sometimes_right" ... you convinced me. Although the first doc you mentioned is the original BK filing dated 26/11, ... the rest seems quite convincing.
I now assume TPG is in and likely long ... unless CNBC is not updated for whatever the reason..
What is really strange is the way doc 301 has been obvioulsy censored.
Who could have done such a thing? Wouldn't it require explicit approval by the judge? Why would she approve such a thing?
I checked not just your link and directly in Kurzman, but I went to Pacer - supposed to be totally official info in the court - and it's censored there too.
I don't live in US, but in Spain I have never ever seen such a thing in a court officially filed documents.. here it would even be subject of journalists attention.
Yes, but zardiw may be right.
They filed the BK on 26th, but could have unloaded on 29th.
Strange, but possible. And it's true that they have not showed up: neither in docs, not in the court. Neither even in any public statement nor in their web.
you are right about it!1
liu, are you including the 1.9B "paid" by JPM to the FDIC?
I guess even WM Inc does not count with getting them from the FDIC?
It seems they are not even included in the 8k filing that details WMInc projected cash flows up to the end of January 09.
The 4.4 seem to be there, as well as around a couple of hundred M$ more since they expect a 4.6B cash position by Jan09.
But I do not see the 1.9 anywhere. I would be glad you were right, but I am afraid FDIC will keep those to cover their own liablilities in the deal.
JPM got WM Bank, not WM Inc. WM inc is the former owner fo WM Bank.
WM Inc. has other subsidiaries and assets, among them 4.4B deposited in WM Bank ( now JPM). In the BK filing they mentioned 32B in assets (excluded WM Bank as asset) . I also has debts of its own: up to 8B (excluded WM Bank debts or liabilities).
WM Inc. was and is the public company trading in the stock exchange.
WM Inc. requested protection under Ch.11 inmediatly after FDIC seized its main subsidiary - WM Bank - and handed it over to JPM.
Most of assets - good and "toxic" - as well as liabilities of the original company went to JPM in the deal they closed with the FDIC.
You may get confused by the term WAMU which originally was about the same for the bank or for the holding. Now, you have to be precise about what you or someone means by WAMU.
It seems that the W. Mutual brand is owned by WM Inc, not by the WM Bank. So, it's possible that JPM is daring too much using the brand in its advertisment.
Take a look to many posts over the last weeks and you will get updated on the situation.
My assumption (*)is that only 30% of the value ( the cash left apart ) remains.
Even so (with 70% depreciation) you are in good shape if you entered around 0.15. If you entered aroung 0.05 or below even with only 15% of remaining value for non cash assets you are ok. ..
Theses assumptions exclude the NOL tax benefits, that are worth only in case of buyout by a profitable company. In this case we could support even higher devaluation.
Frankly, .. nowadays the value of this company is just peanuts. Cap. Market value of 70M$ give control over more than a hundred subsidiaries ( some valued hundreds of M$, one of them with revenues closed to 1B, some valuable real state,etc ) , rigths over 7B tax profit from NOL, soon 4.4 B cash plus a position to litigate with some chances against FDIC and JPM in the long run.
If this would be more expensive .. I could have doubts, but today ... at $0.03... I think it's no brainer.
In a BK pink sheet stock there is always hiden high risk - these days we are dicovering that these risks are everywhere in any sector and in companies with excellent B.Sheets) . This is true, there is risk ...but it's also true that the upside is really big...
* I shared some maths and scenarios some weeks ago in previous posts, ... not just me .. some others did it too.
Data and facts seem to show bright future, ... on the other hand pps evolution is scary, this is about the only bad sign we have detected, .. but I have to admit it's a strong sign... .. so there is uncertainty...
Make your decision, I made mine and decided to stay long here...
TPG out and Bonderman in WMI board?
Does it make any sense?