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This is an awesome argument. It is one of strong proof of the product and technology.
Folks I know some are frustrated, but please do not vent it on IHub in general. It is not a great idea at all. A couple of us got banned because they did that. If you could, please focus on the content, and less on the author. Just a friendly reminder. Otherwise, IH mod squad would visit us often.
Technically speaking, I think you are right that Phase 2 completion should be once MCMWH unit is out, since that is the one that would be a product. I see that Wanderport based their claim for a completion of Phase 2 on their completion and favorable result of SCMWH. May be to them MCMWH is just a part of the productline. Well, at least things are clearer this time around. I like Martel's writing, it is quite plain and no interpretation needed like before.
I am an engineer and I have no patents. Patents, patent pending, or no patent do not take away the skills person have. Take you time to read his patent in anti theft system. Read how his Posilight is designed and works. That is my kind of engineers.
Depending on how you define an engineer. A career could define by education or by training. In fact most engineers could not invent. Several of good chef never went to cooking school. Several singers never have singing class. They are self taught, read books, and train themselves. It is the so called talents. If you ask an engineer like me, Robert has proved himself as an awesome industrial designer, innovator, and engineer.
Why do you care if people disagree with you, if you are confident in your research?
My point is not to challenge or threat each other, and please do not do that. I believe in their good intention. I have a chance to exchange messages with them.
My concern would be if we would go overboard on this. I know several of us are very passionate people.
Good input. This also gives a better perspective of this matter.
How so?
I am always on the perception that my banker is a crook. I did not know that is a universal truth. ^^
Is it the same patent application that Robert stopped paying the maintenance fee and resulting in Application Withdrawn? So, is that a good thing then? Sorry I got confused with this neighbor issue.
Please study the agreement between Wanderport and Robert. It describes the scope of each party.
You have to understand the role of Wanderport vs Robert. Licensee vs Licencor. Several of those R&D cost would not be in Wanderport tab, it would be Robert's.
Thank you for supporting our argument that they do spend money on R&D. Appreciate that.
I would prefer they spend their budget on research and development, instead of an office space. Business this day you could do stuff at even your home office.
This is a compact water heater unit we are talking about. It is a stationary and compact stuff. Why do they need a large space for? If he really share the space with other firm, I would bless Robert for being a true startup guy. That is how most of us roll. Lean and mean.
Keep posting. Your input is appreciated.
LOL, Gold....a lot of IFs here. Should I surrender now or later?
Who knows what the future may bring? We live in a competitive world. Anything could happen. It is up to Wanderport and Robert to be prudent enough to strategically patent what's matter. If they do, it would be either a beefy buyout from a big boy or they sue the bigboy for beefy chunk of money. Having said that, shouldn't we appreciate that they try to stay under the radar for the moment?
It is a good question for Robert next time I talk to him.
I am open to your inputs on that. It is a good point.
I do not know if I would be the best person to answer your questions. Please go easy on me, I am just a tech guy.
1) My understanding is James Dysan does not own patent either on vacuum or a ball wheel maneuvering. I do not think he could patent those. However, he patented the application of using ball wheel maneuvering on a dust vacuum. Then it sells like a hot cake.
If I understand correctly, neither water heater nor microwave water heating are innovation. What Robert does patent pending on are the new configuration of heat exchanger for microwave water heating and how to control microwave radiation to be regular for adsorption enhancement ( I could be wrong.), which applies to pretty much any application that we need to heat liquid quickly and more efficiently with microwave. True, it does not limit Wanderport to residential MWH at all. At the same time that is the beauty of Wanderport. The innovation applies to everything in that nature. That's why Robert whisper to me that what you see here is just a tip of the iceberg.
2) Regarding of market share, I am no expert. However, innovation with green concept at a comparable price would have its place in the market. If you read my previous paragraph, I hope that their innovative approach is rather protected by the patent pending above.
3) I guess this one is a bonus question, since you said two questions. I have no idea on the company value. I just see it from a tech guy standpoint that we just run into a company that may offer a game changing approach on liquid heating application in general. If Wanderport said its pps should be $3+ based on their projection in residential microwave water heater market. I would not be surprised if the pps has longer legs when they start to apply the concept into several other applications.
Apparently, please ask Belize.
I read it from somewhere that the hardshell of the unit would be the same for both single cavity or multi cavity POU unit. (same power consumption too perhaps). The idea of multi cavity is to split the flow stream into smaller pieces, then microwave energy could be adsorbed more efficiently. In other word, it is supposed to be more efficient.
Correct. My understanding is Design 1st built the single cavity microwave water heater to verify the design principle of new heat exchanger. If my understanding is also correct, the multicavity unit should likely have higher efficiency than the single cavity at the same flow. Anyway this is my guessimate from reading their product principle.
Although Robert has not said it specifically, we can tell that the in house testing results on a single cavity unit (, which is supposed to be lower than those of multi cavity unit) were favorable. How? Robert and Design 1st recently extended the scope of their contract to the design of the rest of the productline. Believe me, they would not do that if the result was not favorable or marketable. They have been very careful on spending. As Robert said, he insisted not to publish the half baked information and let the third party lab does that for him.
At the same time, they use this single cavity model to start the UL application process. I am not clear if the third party testing was also conducted on this single cavity model or they may wait for the multi cavity prototype to be completed in coming weeks, then conduct a/another third party test on that. I guess that may be the reason the testing results have not been released. August is the big month for all these to come together.
How do we know if a microwave oven is working? How do we know if your hot water kettle is working? No need to be an engineer to know if some household items are working, don't you think?
It is a breath of fresh air. Go WDRP...
Attention: Richard Martel addressed the recent development.
Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 8:15 pm (PST)
You are very welcome. I want to urge all of us that in this situation, all of us to have lend a hand to monitor and respond to the posts of newcomers patiently. Let's explain and clarify in a healthy manner. Stay cool, be fair, and debate with fact, information, and logical argument.
No one man can do this alone. It takes the whole group to get us through this. No need to say this, but you know that I am Long and Strong. Go WDRP.
All these email from Robert are consistent and project a very strong base for the product future. What a guy....
I support your effort to handle these scumbags. Having said that, I am still optimistic that the relevant change would happen in the near future. It may not be quickly enough from our point of views.
Robert has been communicated with investors for some time. He himself hold a majority of shares in Wanderport. I could imagine he could use those acronyms pretty well. I imagine PPS is one of the related top questions and concern investors or management mentioned. IMO, I would not be surprised if he would use that term.
Sorry. It may sound misleading. What he tried to say was UL process would take a bit of time, that is why they project the product launching period towards the end of third quarter and forth quarter of this year. The reason being is due to the nature of an innovative application of the product, UL have to develop a testing standard for microwave water heater. Robert also suggested that as mentioned in the prior PR, Wanderport has also applied for ETL certification to expedite the process.
He just said there are other markets that does not require UL to launch the product. I am personally not an expert in this area, but my understanding is majority of Asian market does not require UL certification. Asian market has been huge market for a point of use water heater for a long time. I hope this addressed your question. ^^
Agree. It was a tier 2 PR. Anyhow, it was good to match the name with the face. ^^
The following was from Robert. I hope it would clear up some of the questions people have.
water boy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear XXX,
This is the best that I can do before leaving. I can’t comment on commercialization of the product xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx at the end however I respectfully submit that any thinking person may suggest that some markets do not require UL and that they would provide a logical “launch” for the product.
Best regards
Robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [mailto:xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 5:00 PM
To: robert@posilight.com
Subject: Re: email
Dear Robert:
The following is my summary of our conversation. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Please review and revise as needed. I would ensure to put it up on the board to clear up these questions.
water boy
Q&A with Robert S. on Friday, July 29th, 2011.
1) Allegation on Andrew Barakett: Why the company choose to keep him an IR?
Response: Andrew Barakett is a Wanderport's Contractor working as an IR. The ground to terminate his contract has to be reasonable. For example, AMF recently begins their preliminary allegation on Andrew. If Wanderport terminates Andrew now, it could result in a lawsuit or worse still, the summary conviction of a potentially innocent man. I believe in due process. Our forefathers have fought for this right and it is one that I will not dismiss lightly. I vehemently object to any form of vigilante justice and would oppose that Andrew be cast out based upon allegations. Please understand that I take these allegations seriously and would like it if the company were to closely monitor the situation and act according to the developments.
My opinion as the licensor and advisor to the company is as follows: From the practicality standpoint, Andrew has done a commendable job at keeping investors informed. Certainly, he might not do a super job in several people's opinion, then again, arm chair quarter backs are a dime a dozen. In addition, given Andrews commitment and enthusiasm coupled with the terms and conditions of Andrew's contract and compensation, it may prove difficult to find a replacement. It is possible that once the investigation proceeds to the next level, there may or may not be sufficient grounds to drop Andrew from his role. Time will tell and I am not sure that swift action in the incorrect direction is in anyone's best interest at this time.
2) There was a claim on patent pending as reported on the following that the patent on CONTINUOUS FLOW DEMAND CONTROLLED MICROWAVE WATER HEATER got withdrawn. We would like to have a clarification on the withdrawn and other patent pending.
Response: I have applied for several patents relating to this microwave water heater and other wares over the years. This particular patent application was approximately seven years old and it was a joint patent. As a part of the patent application process, it requires certain amount of maintenance fee to be paid periodically. Since I have other more recent and pertinent patent pending on this technology, I chose not to request examination nor pay maintenance fees on this older technology application, resulting in 'Application withdrawn'. Patent applications, whether in the pending, pct or national phase is public information that becomes available according to prescribed schedules. I won’t accelerate the publishing of this information which, in my view, could compromise my position as licensor or Wanderports position as licencee . The information filed and that I continue to develop and file periodically represents my continuing work in the field and my concern is that by prematurely releasing anything that it would be to the detriment to my work and commercialization efforts in this field.
3) Product efficiency. People do not understand how Wanderport product could excel the energy efficiency of the products in the market, since they all claim to have close to 100 percent energy efficiency.
Response: I do not attach much importance to any non-verified vendor released specifications relating to efficiency. A “typical” gas tankless water heater has efficiency approximately 65-85 percents. Many electric tankless water heaters, on the other hand, sometimes claim their energy efficiency to be 100 percent efficiency. For example, one of the electric tankless water heater claim that they could achieve 100 percent energy efficiency, while we see on its’ face an LED indicator. In addition, the unit also has an internal electronic control circuit. Both the light and control circuit consume power and therefore it is impossible from the outset that this unit operates at 100% efficiency. I insist on not providing any misleading or half-baked information on efficiency and instead wish to pursue this within the context of a qualified 3rd party evaluation which will likely include comparisons and comparables. It is within this context that I believe that we will compare favourably.
4) Robert's commitment to Wanderport: People concerns that Robert may pull out if this investigation got deeper and related to several complications.
Response: I am concerned about the allegations against Andrew and how they may affect the company. That being said, so far, I am happy with Wanderport and its staff but I will be watching this as it develops further. That being said, I have already extended my share restriction to March 2012 and willing to extend it again if need be. My interest is in Wanderport's long term growth. The terms of the licensing agreement are clear with respect to termination of the agreement and , in absence of force majeure, I believe that the agreement will be in force for a long time. Wanderport has contributed towards validating the market and supporting the technology over the last two years and I do not take their commitment lightly nor for granted. Andrew has been an enthusiastic “flag-bearer” during this whole process and I do not discount, in any way, discount his contribution to where we are now.
True, it would be some challenges to penetrate the market. Having said that, this is similar to Dysan when it comes out to compete with several others, thumb drive when we had cd, and dvd in the market already, or a pricey flat screen TV when a CRT TV is much cheaper.
If Wanderport could come out with a unit that 30 percent more efficient, may be Titan, Bosch, Rinnai may want to have their hands on this technology. There are several ways that Wanderport could penetrate the market. Plus, nobody talks about taking over the market, just to get some market share from this multi billions dollars industry would be a good start.
Having said that, I would monitor how this investigation evolves. Could you suggest where would the best place to monitor that?
$250 tankless water heater is a point of use unit. A normal whole house unit is quite more expensive than that. Your comparison is simply not an apple to apple.
Regarding to a new unproven technology product, that is what competitor said about Dysan Ball and Ipod. Eventually, the better product with better idea would have its place in the market.
That is why we all want to remove Andrew from his role. Agree on that.
Robert managed to get the whole dragon panel pitched in on Posilight idea. Then, he refuses to take the deal...LOL...That is how they call him the one that got away.
You are right. Tankless water heater is not new. If Wanderport is another tankless water heater, most longs would not be interested in the stock. It is not another tankless water heater. It is a microwave tankless water heater, which is not the same as gas type or electric type available in the market. Read my other post that explains a little bit more in length.
Good point Earnest. Let me bore you with my lengthy response.
The tankless water heater is not quite new. Actually it is pretty cool of how to make a household device that almost all houses have to work significantly better. It is kind of like Dysan that came up with a ball vacuum. Simple and obvious, but yet nobody spent time to improve it.
Similar to that, tankless water heaters have been around for sometimes. Two main categories of tankless water heater based on their heat source are gas tankless water heater and electric water heater. You are also right that heat exchanger is not a new concept, you could find heat exchanger on both tank or tankless water heaters. It has been around probably for several centuries. The tankless water heaters available in the market is pretty cool and high energy efficiency, the design has some common flaws like heat fluctuation, installation cost, etc. Microwave water heating by itself is also not new. We all know that microwave can heat water.
What Wanderport brings to the table is simply to innovate a solution to an obvious/common application--how to heat FLOWING water more efficiently. They in fact go to a next level to perfect the constraints that other cannot overcome on microwave water heating.
Microwave water heating can be relatively instantaneous as we are well aware. Wanderport MWH uses this concept to work hand in hand with an innovative configuration of heat exchanger, which allows better microwave energy absorption and efficiently recycles wasted heat back to the water stream. They also solve another longstanding problem of irregular wave of microwave from magnetron, resulting in higher efficiency of electricity conversion to microwave.
What you have is a smaller, lighter unit with lower material cost, since it does not need a giantic copper coil as the gas type or electric type. Wanderport claims approximately 30 percent energy saving comparing to existing tankless water heater you mentioned. In other word, It is a tankless water heater done right. For the first time that a tankless water heater can do what they are supposed to.
I hope this helps.
If that timeline posted was the first time it was on air, then an easy explanation is Robert has already been in contract with Wanderport. The idea was sold (exclusively licensed) to Wanderport. I do not think he could put that project on the show.