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Elmer,
Interesting, there is much truth in your statement. At least here at IH there are no posts of yours that I can find to support your opponents claim, and your generalized comments in this post also ring true.
So, Welcome to the Parking Lot! When folks want to get rude and crude, behave like two year olds, cuss, fuss and act the fool...bring `em here!
And leave the Stock boards for posting about stocks.
OMT, take it easy on Ron and Greg, give them a chance and you'll find they are actually quite reasonable and easy to work with.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
Sara, AK, Churak, Houston & Assoc.
Sounds like a partnership to me. I want to thank all of you for a most enjoyable read this morning. A real day brightener!
For my own miniscule contribution I offer this story.
Two students entered college. One had decided to seek a generalized education, the other sought more specific knowledge. With each passing semester both students made progress towards their goals.
Finally, at graduation each student had achieved what they set out to do.
The first student now knew nothing about everything, and the second knows everything about nothing.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
I am a feared both of you may be a wee bit behind in assigning credit...
#msg-248524
The Bird of Prey
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Http://logonfl.com
That's pretty good too!
I didn't know BobZ was into Egyptian Mythology!!!!
But then some programmers have a pesky predilection for using some of the obscure things they remember from school when naming operating systems. <g>
The Bird of Prey
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Logon Florida!
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That's a very good one!
The Bird of Prey
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I take it that was your favorite?
It was #6 on the list.
The Bird of Prey
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Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
I think it's time...
For Matt to do his best DeForrest Kelley impersonation...
"It's Ensign Hurricane Jim. He's dead, Jim."
whilst on that note...
"It's Ensign Pillsbury, He's bread, Jim."
"It's Ensign Ketchup, He's red, Jim."
"It's Ensign Prisoner, He's Fled, Jim."
"It's Ensign Rosebud, She's sled, Jim."
"It's Ensign Goodyear, He's tread, Jim."
"It's Ensign Clampett, He's Jed, Jim."
"It's Ensign Flintstone, He's Fred, Jim."
"It's Ensign Bodine, He's dim, Jed."
"It's Ensign Plumber, He's lead, Jim."
The Bird of Prey
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And wasn't repeated 436 times. eom
The Bird of Prey
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I was surprised...
it had more than four words.
The Bird of Prey
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Subject: NOTICE FROM CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES:
Afghanistan Cruise
We at Carnival Cruise Lines
didn't forget that a lot of entertainers
had promised to leave the country if
George W.Bush became President.
With that in mind, we have a Special Offer
for those who want to keep their promise!
Attention: Would Alec Baldwin, Rosie O'Donnell,
Cher, Phil Donahue,David Gephin, Barbara Streisand,
Pierre Salinger, Woody Harrelson and anyone else
who made that promise,
please dispose of all US assets and report to
Florida for the sailing of the Funship Cruise,
"Elation," which has been commissioned
to take you to your new vacation homes
in Afghanistan.
You may opt to be dropped off in Somalia or Iraq.
The Florida Supreme Court will sponsor
a Farewell Parade in your honor
through Palm Beach,Broward,
and Miami-Dade counties prior to your cruise.
Please pack for an extended stay...
at least four years and you should consider
the possibility of eight years.
Note: Since you advocate strict gun control, you may not bring any.
Staffing your voyage is Bill Clinton as captain,
Al Gore as cruise director,
Monica Lewinsky as recreation director,
Ted Kennedy as lifeguard
and emergency procedures director,
and
Congressman Gary Condit as intern coordinator.
If you have any questions about making arrangements
for your homes,friends and loved ones,
please direct your comments to
Senator Hillary Clinton.
Her village can raise your children while you're gone, and she
can watch over all your money and your furnishings until you return.
Bon Voyage!"
Is this a great country or what!
The Bird of Prey
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My point is mainly against unprofitable companies paying CEOs huge salaries. Just crawls up my hairy butt cheeks.
BLEEECHHHH! that was an image I really didn't need! <g>
But seriously, If you read my previous statement closely you'll see we are not in disagreement. I simply choose to use the information to my advantage, rather than getting my panties in a wad over it.
Come to think of it, maybe that's the same logic that has landed many of them in BK court, eh?
Could be a signal to not ever buy, or to sell, or to short said company, no?
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There's nothing more assuring to investors than a CEO/Pres buying up its own stock.
I agree completely. But if his salary barely covers his expenses...what is he going to buy stock with? Not all CEO's are Stud Muffins that can get by on looks alone.
The Bird of Prey
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An excellent example. Salary is in proportion and the company is doing well.
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But how often does a potential client/investor really go into the CEO's home. Mabye I'm just that naive and have not ran a public company. But, I know I wouldn't particulary care for someone to come into my home, even if he is giving me money.
More often than you'd think, even at levels far below "big time" CEO's
You have to separate business and personal, when you are at that level.
That becomes increasingly more difficult the higher up the ladder one goes. It is one of the reasons so few can handle the pressures involved.
I'd think the majority of that type of stuff needs to be done at the office.
It almost always does begin at the office, but there is always the "post meeting" socializing. This can range from walking someone to their car in the parking lot, to taking them out to *dinner*, or inviting them to the "little party" that just happens to be going on that evening at the CEO's house.
Warren Buffett lives in a podunk house (comparatively) and drives an old Lincoln. I don't think he's done too shabby, eh?
There are always exceptions/shining examples of model behavior. WB is in a class by himself, From very early on he has been in the position of the one being "wooed", not doing the "wooing". His company is in essence a holding company. The situation is quite different from that of a CEO looking to cut a deal with some Japanese official so his company can build a new plant.
The Bird of Prey
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Does Jack Welch reside in a lean-to?
How about Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Eisner? and so on and so on.
BTW, how are Sam's Children living?
While you are entirely correct that Sam Walton ran his company without an exorbitant salary, your assertion that his doing so renders my comments "totally without merit" shows that you missed my point entirely. Please reread the last paragraph of that post...the one where I state that companies that allocate executive compensation based on production will prosper and those that don't, won't.
That, certainly does have *merit*. Only a fool would disagree.
The Bird of Prey
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An awful lot of good points in there. However, your postulation that $60K might be a "good living" requires just a wee bit of education on the expenses associated with the expected "lifestyle" of a CEO.
First, I agree that there are too many execs that are way overpaid. and I agree that too many of them are running companies into the ground. But, a great deal is expected of a CEO of a public corporation, after all how would it look if the top man in the company pulled up in a Rambler?
So the Exec is expected to drive something stylish and befitting his position, It must also be a new car typically, Lease prices on a high end Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus etc. would typically consume 20% or more of an execs "salary" were it "capped" at $60K. Additionally, the Exec is expected to have a home suitable for entertaining potential client and investors. A 3/2 in the burbs is not likely to encourage an Investor to drop $2 mil on the company any time soon, nor is it likely to inspire confidence in a client considering shifting a million dollars of PO's to the Company.
It is also expected that the CEO will "Wine and Dine" prospective clients and investors. I don't think he'll get far offering a McDonald's happy meal.
Lastly, In order to show stability, most CEO's are expected to be married. When you take into account all of the "extras" the CEO's Spouse is expected to tolerate and the "compensation" she often demands for doing so...this expense can easily top all the others combined.
Now there is the option of having the company cover all of these "expenses", but that still leaves the company paying a pretty big bill. And don't forget the CEO wants to actually come out ahead in the deal too, you know, for the time when he can no longer function as a CEO.
Your original supposition about Baseball players applies equally well to this situation. The Company will decide what the CEO is worth. Those companies that make good decisions in this regard will prosper, those that pay more than they get in return, won't.
BTW, when doing my due diligence, the CEO's salary is an important consideration. if it is too large IMO, I turn and run because it's clear that management are idiots.
And there will always be CEO's willing to "take" whatever a foolish company is willing to "give" them.
No matter what. You can't regulate stupidity.
The Bird of Prey
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deja vu...
Sounds like the old Aqua Vie story to me...good idea, but no marketing.
Without doing any in depth research, the fact that two separate emails failed to illicit even a form letter response is enough to tell me to execute evasive action Monty Python style...
Run Away! Run Away!
The Bird of Prey
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It's been said...
that some folks shy from interaction with me because of my debating skills. In a effort to "level the playing field" I offer this document currently making it's way around the Internet.
The Argument Primer
By a self proclaimed master debater
I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win
an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know
this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of
their great respect, they don't even invite me. You too can
win arguments.
Simply follow these rules:
* Drink Liquor.
Suppose you're at a party and some hotshot intellectual is
expounding on the economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing
about. If you're drinking some health-fanatic drink like
grapefruit juice, you'll hang back, afraid to display your
ignorance, while the hotshot enthralls your date. But if you
drink several large martinis, you'll discover you have STRONG
VIEWS about the Peruvian economy.
You'll be a WEALTH of information. You'll argue forcefully, offering
searing insights and possibly upsetting furniture. People will be
impressed. Some may leave the room.
* Make things up.
Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to
prove Peruvians are underpaid, a position you base solely on
the fact that YOU are underpaid, and you're damned if you're
going to let a bunch of Peruvians be better off. DON'T say:
"I think Peruvians are underpaid.' Say: 'The average Peruvian's
salary in 1981 dollars adjusted for the revised tax base
is $1,452.81 per annum, which is $836.07 before the mean
gross poverty level."
NOTE: Always make up exact figures.
If an opponent asks you where you got your information, make THAT up,
too. Say: "This information comes from Dr. Hovel T. Moon's study for
the Buford Commission published May 9, 1982. Didn't you read it?"
Say this in the same tone of voice you would use to say
"You left your soiled underwear in my bath house."
* Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases.
Memorize this list:
Let me put it this way
In terms of
Vis-a-vis
Per se
As it were
Qua
So to speak
Perhaps
You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as
'Q.E.D.,' 'e.g.,' and 'i.e.' These are all short for 'I speak
Latin, and you do not.'
Here's how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want
to say:
'Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they
don't have enough money.'
You never win arguments talking like that. But you WILL win if
you say: "Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers
vis-a-vis Peruvians qua Peruvians, perhaps they would like
to order them more often, so to speak, but they do not have
enough money per se, as it were. Q.E.D."
Only a fool would challenge that statement.
* Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks.
You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire
back at your opponents when they make valid points. The best
are:
You're begging the question.
You're being defensive.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
You are putting the cart before the horse...
What are your parameters?
This last one is especially valuable. Nobody, other than
mathematicians, has the vaguest idea what 'parameters'
means.
Here's how to use your comebacks:
You say, "As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873..."
Your opponents says, '"Lincoln died in 1865."
You say "You're begging the question."
OR
You say, "Liberians, like most Asians..."
Your opponents says, "Liberia is in Africa."
You say, "You're being defensive."
So that's it: you now know how to out-argue anybody. Do not
try to pull any of this on people who carry weapons.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
Again, my two issues are that -- 1) the options *cost* more than the employee actually generates and 2) they all too often get abused and handed out like food stamps..
Suppose, for a moment that, because you offer a stock option program you are able to hire an employee at $50K instead of the going rate of $75K when SO's aren't a part of the equation. Now when he adds that $100 of value to the company (from your example) and is issued the $150 of options, it's in reality just "filling the gap" between his salary and what his salary *should* have been. Now, if the stock performs well enough that his "options" become worth more than the $150, the employee's perception is that he has come out ahead. Except for the fact that he added value to the company on two occasions, both he and you would be right, and he would be taking advantage of whomever purchases the stock from him at the "inflated price".
But the price is not inflated. Because of the structure of the deal the company has saved costs at several places. First in the employee's salary, since it is lower that the *norm* there are the obvious savings there, but there are also other savings that are not so obvious, such as the expenses for taxes and for other benefits that are directly related to the size of the salary. The company, by reducing these immediate costs now has a better chance of reaching profitability, which will increase the stock price. Further, because the company can allocate the cash saved by this process to another (perhaps more conducive to producing profit) area of the business, more value may be added to the bottom line.
Simply put, the cost of the options granted may have already been recouped *before* the employee's efforts added an additional $100 to the company bottom line that earned him the options.
Therefore, while I do not agree that options *cost* more than the employee generates (it *can* happen, but it is not necessarily a function of issuing options), I will agree that they can be abused and issued to employees that have not "earned" them and/or in quantities well in excess of what was earned. restrictions such as I proposed earlier would help in reducing the number of opportunities for criminal abuse. I seriously doubt however that there is any way to prevent a business (or individual) from acting foolishly.
Now, somebody tell me why, on a Saturday night at 9:00 pm, I'm at home writing about stock options and book value dilution.
Well, let's see...
It wasn't a full moon, so it couldn't be you were hiding out to protect the public from your werewolf persona.
You've seriously misunderstood the task "setting priorities".
You're having as much trouble getting a date as almost every other "pre-millionaire" geek or pseudo-geek on the planet.
You don't like Craig T. Nelson or Ving Rhames or Jaclyn Smith.
You were so depressed after "wide left", you couldn't muster the gumption to do anything else.
You were so depressed after LSU...LSU? When does basketball season start?
You've really become too passionate about the "stock options thing" and need to step back and take a breather.
Have a great day!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
Hmmm, wonder if Bird of Prey sang in the church choir? <g>
And the answer is....
{drum roll}
Yes. Also played in the high school band (marching , orchestra & jazz ensemble), single reeds. While still in high school, landed a spot with the chorus for the city opera production company. While in college began my first career as a radio and then club Disc Jockey that lasted more than twelve years.
I inherited this love of music from Mom, who taught voice and piano for many, many years. Of all the gifts she's given, my love of music may be the most precious to me...second only to that which both my parents taught...how to love.
The Bird of Prey
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I have to give Matt an occasional hard time, truck-wise. He has a truck. I have a TRUCK.
Perhaps it would be wise to remember...
It is not the size of the truck, but the ability to deliver the load on time and at the proper destination.
On a related theme...
It is not the size of the ship, but the ability to remain in port until all the passengers have disembarked.
The Bird of Prey
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I'd love to, however...
It was decided some time ago that I was too young to be allowed to post at the oldies board. They had a strict age requirement (verified by a test) and in true Agent 86 style...
missed it by { } *that* much!
Feel free to point them to my post, if you wish.
The Bird of Prey
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You'd have to have a working knowledge of `40's "Big Band Era" music. One of the big "hits" of that era was a song called
"Chattanooga Choo Choo". the opening lyric was...
Pardon me Boys, Is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo?
This concludes todays cultural growth moment.
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AK,
Excellent!!! I enjoyed that one. How about an oldie but goodie?
Roy Rogers and Dale Evans ranch had been plagued by a mountain lion for weeks. The final straw came when Roy awoke to find his brand new boots had been partially eaten. He saddled Trigger and rode out to slay the worrisome beast.
When he returned a few days later with the mountain lion's carcass slung over his shoulders Dale was heard to exclaim...
Pardon me Roy, Is that the cat that chewed your new shoes?
The Bird of Prey
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Congrats to Fargonaut...
who got this right yesterday!
#msg-530933
The Bird of Prey
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Http://logonfl.com
As promised...the Answers!
first a refresh of the questions...
Name that Christmas Carol...for instance, the following: "Bleached
Yule ' would be, "White Christmas"
1) Our Monarchial Triad
2) The Dozen Festive 24 Hour Intervals
3) Minuscule Hamlet In The Near East
4) Listen, Aerial Sprites Vocalize Musically
5) Cherubim Providing Audio Input to Us >From Aloft
6) Assemble, Everyone Who Loyally Believes
7) Vertically Challenged Adolescent Percussionist
8) Bipedal Traveling Through An Amazing Acreage During The Period
Between December 21st And March 21st In The Northern Hemisphere
9) Allow Crystalline Formations To Descend in Triplicate
10) Omnipotent Supreme Being Elicit Respite To Ecstatic Distinguished
Males
And here are the Answers.
1) We Three Kings
2) The Twelve Days of Christmas
3) Oh Little Town of Bethlehem
4) Hark the Herald Angels Sing
5) Angels We Have Heard on High
6) O' Come All Ye Faithful
7) Little Drummer Boy
8) Walking in a Winter Wonderland
9) Let it Snow, Let it Snow, Let it Snow
10) God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
Hope you all had fun with it.
The Bird of Prey
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Don't feel bad...
Some of mine are on a completely different plane...
Some bound for Chicago, others for New Orleans.
The Bird of Prey
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Http://logonfl.com
Bob is surveying demons? <g>
also pitching you(sp) demon survey
I never realized there was such a big market for them.
The Bird of Prey
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Stock Options - Boon or Bane?
Stock Options are a valuable tool in motivating both executives and other employees to peak performance.
Stock Options are a license to steal from Shareholders.
Unfortunately both statements aren't entirely true, neither are they entirely false. As with many things the truth lies somewhere in between.
For those persons in a position to do so the lure of quick, easy riches that options agreements provide are often too much to ignore. What many employees tend to ignore is that the "options" can be just as easily "worthless" as the can be a ticket to easy street. Most employees are not well versed in the intricate language of these agreements, and thus are often unaware of the risks involved. When starting a new job the future often appears quite "rosy". Few employees will make any attempt to properly "value" the option package offered, fewer still will have any idea how to accomplish this task.
Throw in the potential for abuse by upper level management, who quickly discover they can become mega-millionaires for their skills in manipulating stock prices, often walking away with hundreds of millions in both shareholders and employees hard earned money (see Enron & WorldCom). It's easy to see why many feel that the use of Stock Options need to be curtailed, if not eliminated all together.
But this solution presents a different problem, without the motivation factor provided by Stock Options how can one energize the often lackluster efforts of management and labor? Today it seems that the only value capable of getting one's attention is "More Money". From our athletes to our zookeepers we hear their battle cry "Show me the Money!"
Further, some corporations have used the promise of options to lure talented employees and then "left them twisting in the breeze" as upper management looted the company of the value established by those talented employees.
Some companies however do things the right way and fulfill their options obligations without significantly diluting shareholder value. It can even be argued that the increases in productivity and other "intangible assets" due to the use of Stock Options overcomes the negative effect of the minimal levels of dilution.
So, how do we encourage more of the latter and fewer of the negative uses of Stock Options?
Set some restrictions for one thing. A few suggestions...
1. Limit the number of options available to a single individual according to the following formula: # shrs ava = discount amount of option (FV-Strike) times X% of base salary, where X is decided by a majority vote of shareholders. Once this valuation is reached the employee would be unable to participate in further options offerings for one calendar year.
2. Limit the percentage of options offering given to upper management/owners in a fashion similar to the restrictions placed on benefit plans (401K for example).
3. Stiff criminal penalties for those that abuse stock options and a RICO-like disgorgement of their ill gotten gains, proceeds to be distributed among their victims.
4. Require companies to disclose the projected levels of dilution based on the options being offered.
5.Require COmpanies issuing these options to provide training to their employees in evaluating these option offers.
These would allow Stock Options to still serve their motivational purpose while reducing the negative impact they might have.
The Bird of Prey
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Http://logonfl.com
Oh if I could but put this in very large letters...
AYE!!!
The Bird of Prey
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Very good!
Did you get the Christmas carols?
The Bird of Prey
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since probably 99.9% of RB members know how to spell.?????
Perhaps you meant to say...
since 99.9% of RB members *DON'T* know how to spell. Especially if the word has more than four letters.
The Bird of Prey
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Some questions for you to ponder...
Some months have 30 days, others have 31. How many months have 28
days?
Pat likes pots and pans, but not bowls. She likes straw but not hay;
she likes sagas, but not poems.
What does Pat like, a star or a planet?
Answers tomorrow.
The Bird of Prey
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Name that Christmas Carol...for instance, the following: "Bleached
Yule ' would be, "White Christmas"
1) Our Monarchial Triad
2) The Dozen Festive 24 Hour Intervals
3) Minuscule Hamlet In The Near East
4) Listen, Aerial Sprites Vocalize Musically
5) Cherubim Providing Audio Input to Us >From Aloft
6) Assemble, Everyone Who Loyally Believes
7) Vertically Challenged Adolescent Percussionist
8) Bipedal Traveling Through An Amazing Acreage During The Period
Between December 21st And March 21st In The Northern Hemisphere
9) Allow Crystalline Formations To Descend in Triplicate
10) Omnipotent Supreme Being Elicit Respite To Ecstatic Distinguished Males
Answers to follow tomorrow.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
Not my rant but one worth repeating. Especially after the insult my Stepdaughter was subjected to by a "muslim" woman yesterday.
The simplest way of dealing with people who say the
United States should not act at all, or not act now
against terrorist threats looming in the future, may
be this: All such people should be asked this question:
What would you have done, on Flight 93?
To Secretary General of the United Nations, Kofi
Annan: What would you have done? Would you have sought
the agreement of all nationalities aboard Flight 93,
before you did anything? That would include, of
course, negotiating with the ambassador of the
terrorists. If you could not get such agreement, would
you have just sat there in your seat, waiting to die?
To the editors, reporters and columnists of the New
York Times: Would you have concluded that the evidence
wasn't clear? That Todd Beamer hadn't "made his case"?
That no one had proved the "alleged" terrorists were
going to kill everyone on the plane? Would you have
pulled out your laptops to write up the story, sitting
in your seats, waiting to die?
To Li'l Tommy Daschle, Majority Leader of the Senate:
Would you have said, it's too early to make a decision
on this now. Politics should not be involved. Let's
just wait until after the election to decide on
rushing the cockpit? Besides, "I want to be the man in
charge, not Todd Beamer"? Would you have sat in your
seat, waiting to die? And while you are pondering that
question, keep in mind that Todd Beamer and the other
passengers may just have saved your life and those of
all your colleagues. Have you ever heard the quote,
"Mercy drops down from Heaven like the rain. It falls
on the just and the unjust alike."?
To the so-called leaders of the European Union: Would
you have said, this is an American plane, not a
European one. Unless the European airlines are
involved (and we have no reason to think they are),
this is not my problem? Would you have grumbled
quietly about the quality of the food, the vintage of
the wine, and the arrogance of the American
passengers, blaming America's foreign policy for
putting you in this situation, and sat in your seats
waiting to die?
To the so-called leaders of France: No need to even
pose the question. You're cheese-eating surrender
monkeys. Next.
To the Muslims in America: Would you have exchanged
high-fives with your "brothers" on the plane? Wished
them well? Accepted their apologies for the
unfortunate need for your demise? Said with them,
"Allah akbar," and asked to go to the cockpit so you
could have a good view of the "glorious strike against
the infidels"?
To Dan Rather and CBS News: Would you have said, "This
story isn't all about me"? Would you have said that
it's important to understand the grievances of the
hijackers? Would you have asked your cameraman to set
up, so you could get an interview with one of the
hijackers, and tried to borrow Todd Beamer's cell
phone for the important business of patching the clip
through to the news desk? Would you have imagined the
glory of saying on live television as the plane was
going into its final attack mode, "This is Dan Rather,
reporting from close to Ground Zero"? Would you resent
the passengers for cheating you out of this
once-in-a-lifetime scoop?
To Geraldo Rivera: You know that Dan Rather is a
washed-up wuss. You would have gotten the interview,
and jumped out the door of the plane with the tape in
your pocket, in hopes they would find your body, play
the tape, and award you the first ever posthumous
Emmy, right?
To the Framers of the Constitution and the victors in
the American Revolution: No need to ask you the
question. You already answered it in writing. Your
answer is found in the final paragraph of the
Declaration of Independence which you signed under the
threat of being hung by the neck until dead as
traitors to King George III. You pledged your "lives,
fortunes and sacred honor" to the cause. That's answer
enough."
At least it's enough for me. How about you?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Logon Florida!
Http://logonfl.com
I've been wondering when someone was going to bring that up.
Looks like an interesting series, though I'm afraid it may end up being nothing more than a very dark "Charlie's Angels".
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Matt or Bob,
Please see #msg-526624.
Note: A commission would be appropriate.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
In light of your comments I have decided to introduce a new policy.
It's called the Monty Python Argument Method.
In your case the proper response is...
"I'm not allowed to argue unless you've PAID!"
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Then you won't mind if I borrow a page from your book.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Bad link?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381