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WMI targeting DC Pre-trial Conf. by July 23rd/2010.
WMI attys are triying to fix the agenda in the DC court .... if the judge orders what WMI's suggests in this motion, we will have pretty intensive months in the DC court. My expectation about timmings in the DC court used to be worse, ... I mean having up to 25 written depositions and equivalent number of personal depositions in such a short period of time sounds "very fast" compared to what we have seen so far in the BK court.
http://ghostofwamu.com/documents/09-00533/09-00533-0094.pdf
Johnny, I will tell you what I think.
1.- I think the BK process has a given timming for presenting claims. In BK valid claims cannot keep showing up at any time like mushrooms in a rainy season. As example, the "potential" claim behind last motion from FDIC in BK arrived more than 6 months late. Only this means it can be inmediatly rejected by the judge and eventually firmly contested by WMI and other creditors. But you consider it valid anyway. Besides this, the fact is that FDIC menace contradicts itself by default. I will not repeat in full my previous arguments and I will not repeat what other posters more skilled than you and me in legal matters have argued. But in a nutshell I will repeat: if THJMW decides that the 4B are WMI's money ( therefore not WMB's money), then by default not any of the P&A clauses are applicable.
2.- In at least one of your numerous posts you stated - as a fact - that there have not been enough discovery about the 4B turnover, and that it will therefore require a full trial because of this. That Logan's written declaration and her deposition are useless as proof. My friend, this is not a fact, this is your opinion - at best - and by the way an unfounded opinion. I remind you that Logan's deposition was requested by JPM, not by WMI. The fact that it backfired JPM is just one more sign that JPM is wrong to claim the money. But there are other signs: a) in the initial steps of BK-about one year ago- JPM agreed that it was WMI's money, it was later than they started claiming it was a capital contribution; b) the money is accounted and has always been accounted by JPM as a deposit; c) after a year of holding the records, JPM has not been able to produce a single proof that it was a capital contribution, ... and they have filed thousands of pages in the court ( what more evidence a full trial discovery could bring, that was not yet brought?); d) on Oct, 22rd, the best JPM could present was a verbal declaration by the FDIC and JPM people about what they intended to transfer within the P&A, or what they understood it was transfered. Verbal, ad-hoc, interpretation of the written P&A which by the way could again backfire to FDIC, because this would be a fraudulent transfer of a WMI's asset that FDIC was not entitled to convey.
3.) I think that the one that has to demostrate that it was a capital contribution is JPM. It was and it is a deposit account, and therefore WMI's has not to demostrate it's a deposit, but the other way around: others have to demostrate that it is not a deposit. And after one year, with all the information in their hands and most former WMB employees working for them, JPM has not been able to demostrate anything.
4). I used to like your posts. Why?, because until some weeks ago the only negative arguments spreading fear in this board used to be based in one single statement dressed in diverse flavors: WMI is a BK stock and BK stocks are worthless because ultimately the commons get wiped. We've heard this speech very often since day one. Others, like me, consider that this is normally true in BK but this case has many unique elements that will result in a different outcome.
Yes, Johnny, belive it or not, we all already know this is a BK stock. Belive it or not we know it involves serious risks.
Initially your posts used to add some fresh elements to this board that should be considered as additional risks to factor in our decision making. I used to like them for this.
But the more I read you the more it sounds like the old basic argument: it's worthless because it's in BK.
As example, you recently talked again about the IRS $10B claim, that never held water and that has recently been expunged. But it doesn't matter to you if it held water or it's already been expunged. You mentioned it again, so it can contribute to spread fear.
Other example is your treatment of the WMB bondholders claims. The fact that WMB's claimants have been allowed to be represented in the BK process doesn't make their eventual claims against WMI valid. In essence WMB debts is either FDIC's problem or JPM's problem. It will not at all be easy for them to change that essencial fact. It would require much work for all of them to demostrate in court this is a valid sort of claim against WMI. And after many months, they have not made any progress about it yet.
So far, the only valid significant claims are the original ones: WMI's bondholders and pref's owners. Nevertheless you keep spreading fear while your position is to consider WMB's debt as WMI's debt without any single point to support it.
There are other examples in your speech.
5) Finally, you explained us that you have 1 share. So we are supposed to buy that all your efforts with hundred of posts are due to your good faith and your good intention to inform us, to educate us and to save us. All this advice your give us about "sure claims", "the way things work", reposting past motions, picking up just the menacing paragraphs, etc... is advice given in good faith to protect us.
I just don't buy it. I do think your intention is to spread fear in order to buy as cheap as you can. I may be wrong and if it's so I would need to apologize in the future. But, since this whole thing is about making assumptions based on incomplete known facts, and the facts I have about you are your posts .... my assuption is that you are not anymore trustworthy for me.
Your circular biassed arguments are starting to smell too bad for me. At this point I am convinced that all you want is to buy cheap, ... and by the way, considering your strong efforts you it seems want our shares badly.
My take on FDIC move to grasp the money:
1.- JPM lost the money. I think now this is a fact.
2.- In essence FDIC argument to get hold of the money is based on the fact that this money may be needed to offset the future potential result of the claims and counterclaims WMI and FDIC exchanged in the DC court. There is not any litigation between WMB/JPM and FDIC.
3.- By point 2, FDIC somehow recogizes that the 4B are WMI's money and not WMB money. They want the 4B "at hand" to protect themselves so they can get paid in the future if WMI (not WMB)loses against them in the DC court.
4.- On the other hand ... if it's WMI's money, then ... the P&A is not applicable, since it's applicable only to WMB assets. And the only argument for them to initiate this move is based on the P&A, which by default is not applicable to WMI's assets, only to WMB's former assets.
5.- Even in the case that there could be any doubts about the applicability of the P&A ( 2,3 and 4 indicate that it is not applicable ), then with this move FDIC is just trying to get priority to get paid ahead of other creditors who have real, not diputed and proven claims. These creditors would not access the money just because a newcomer ... FDIC could eventually become a valid creditor in the future and just in case it wins in DC court, and subsequent appeal courts..
If I understand minimally the BK judges role, ... their duty is to protect real and valid creditors, not at all potential future creditors.
CONCLUSIONS:
- If the BK court rules that the 4B are WMI's money, the P&A is by default not applicable. So FDIC's move does not hold water.
- Even if for any legality, there are any doubts about the applicability of the P&A, why would the BK judge accept to give priority to FDIC potential/future claims ahead of current valid creditors? .. Again I don't see how this motion can hold water.
- What this motion does for sure is damage JPM, who loses the 4B depoit. (they really never owned it,.. in fact they really never accounted the 4B in their books as theirs but as a deposit).
Cheers!!!
Let's not mess up!! - P&A is between JPM and FDIC. And the turnover action is between WMI and JPM.
If the BK court rules that JPM has to give the money back to WMI. The they have to obey or face serious contempt charges. They have to obey and afterwards they may try to appeal.
But any statement, menace or bragging from FDIC in court about exercising its P&A rights would involve - if they go ahead - those who signed the P&A: JPM and FDIC.
The P&A does neither involve WMI nor the BK court. As per literal words of the FDIC atty it's clear that they can only act upon JPM: ... " to direct JPM to return the account balances to the FDIC-Receiver" (see below).
I personally don't care too much if JPM is forced by the BK court to turn over the money to WMI, and afterwords JPM is "directed by FDIC to return account balances to FDIC-Receiver".
That's entirely JPM's problem. If FDIC acts by it's words and "direct JPM to return the balances", then they may end up in court one-against-the-the other to avoid it and to discuss the interpretation of the terms of THEIR P&A. I don't think they would end there because I do think FDIC was just bragging. But if they do it, it's JPM's porblem.
Under her duties in BK, I don't see why THJMW should care at all about what FDIC would do to JPM as result of her ruling.
She must care first about the owner of the money -trunover action - and then - BK process - about the merits of the claims from diverse claimants and - specially in this case - the merit of JPMs claim about its set-off rights to become first in the line to get paid before other creditors.
Additionally - please - we all should be aware that at this point of time the last trench for JPM is not about the ownership of the money, but about if they have set-off rights or not.
But neither an eventual set-off right nor any eventual issue between JPM and FDIC authorizes JPM to retain the money once the judge decides the money is WMI's money
Guys, fear is dangerous. I know overconfidence is dangerous too. But the more I look into it, the more I try to separate words from facts, the more I feel we are in the right track and moving forward. It's a really bumpy track - this will not be easy with so much money at stake - but it's a track in the right direction.
Cheers, ...
FDIC's atty literal words:
"If, therefore, the court concludes that JPMorgan's set-off rights do not preclude turnover here, then the FDIC-Receiver is prepared promptly to exercise its Section 9.5 (of the P and A agreement) rights and to direct JPMorgan to return the account balances to the FDIC-Receiver."
Again,
What causes your current doubts? Nothing has changed where it matters: the court.
It does not make sense for JPM to just take care of the WMI'S debt, even including the prefs.
If they do so, they would still be at severe risk of having to pay big - uncertain amount but potentially huge- in future litigations ( on top of having assumed current debt in the short term ).
Let's keep in mind that the commons are the ones that represent ownership and WMI's owners will not give up until it gets up to supreme court and jury trial.
So this solution would neither mitigate the risk of potential huge future exposure nor the risk of what could come out of the discovery process.
They have either to fight in court or close a global final settlement that completely cover their exposure.
I don't see the sort of middle step approach that just fix the litigation with creditors and prefs.
It's my opinion, maybe I miss something.
Cheers.
You mean, they cannot transfer them until 10/14, am I right?... they have alredy been converted.
Fisshon .. what motion are you talking about? I bet I missed this one, ..can you please send me a link or a reference to find it either on Pacer or KKC ?
This would be just great!! Imagine ... instead of JPM managing to move the BK proceedings to DC court, WMI would manage to get the DC case against FDIC to the BK court .. (where time really matters) ...woopsss!!
Thanks in advance !!
Good point trailblazin... I failed to mention the one you highlighted...
... the 4B will definitively move the court process to the media spotlight ... this is likely the most effective pressure.
You are totally right.
Cheers.
Billiam_2, I think they may be prepared to part with these 4B.
In their books it's a deposit and as such, in theory a bank such as JPM can lose a 4B deposit without too much damage.
It helps to decide the settlement because formally it helps to justify paying what WMI is likely to be requesting.
I am positively convinced that the settlement talks are hot and that diverse scenarios for such a settlement are discussed at JPM Board. I am convinced that it may happen any time.
However I don't think that the 4B loss is the "compelling event" for them to feel forced to settle.
A)I really think that the most scary thing for them is the potential risk out of discovery.
B) Other "compelling event" for them to settle would be a string of litigation damages: Trust, Taxes return, Intelectual Property and Brand penalites, etc combined with Sleet closing the door for appealling. These moneies are not recorded in WMIs books as deposits but as part of the xtra profits they declared after the takeover (... those $B in Goodwill!!) ... Losing these ones is not at all business as usual in a bank's books. Losing a deposit is understandable.
I don't mean that a settlement may not happen next hour. It may. What I mean is these sort of situations ( A or B above) - not just the 4B - would really trigger them to accept paying really what WMI asks and in hurry up to settle.
What is nice here is that all fronts keep moving and adding incremental pressure to JPM. And with or without a settlement after the 22nd new futures and secure paths for WMI - it's commons and its prefs - will be available.
All my opinion Billiam_2, but this is what I can answer you. As you can guess, I would be glad to be wrong and parting with the 4B will be compelling enough.
Cheers.
Friday and most Thursday will be available to trading.
The hearing is on 22nd, at 9:30. Only one topic already discussed, so it will be shorter than what JPM would like. So by mid morning on 22nd it will be known.
Cheers.
4B hearing on 10/22 at 9:30!!
I expected it earlier but that's life!
Next day, on 23rd it may be in WMI's Wells Fargo accounts. For me this is a non brainer.
Now it's time for our attorneys to fire up - we need JPM to feel more heat to force our awaited settlement - other fronts like the $B in the trusts, the taxes recovery, the finding from discovery etc ... ... I guess we will see some guidance of the next steps non later than by the next omnibus.
Leaving apart what comes from new litigation steps or settlement ....beyond the 22nd the picture will be really comforting: Having 4B in firm cash + subs with book value around 3B (conservative) when the only short term debt (due in 2009) is less than 1.5B and the rest (6.5B) is up to year 2049... is a very comfortable and unique situation for a BK company... by then we may be in the $1 pps range guys!! (again: before other outcomes from litigations, dicovery or settlement)
Cheers.
Good possible correlation Chiron/Jerle!!
... regarding JD exiting one of the JPM activities ... some media are reporting it more like an intermediate step to just quit....
... this point of your list has been really surprising/interesting for me ...
A) have they (JPM Board) already decided that this future costly settlement - originated and to be settled by JD himself - will force him to quit, so they are just starting to make up the exit to look like a normal replacement plan?
B) or is this just a good and replacement plan?
The possible correlation of events that your post highlights points more towards A).
... we will see soon!!
What's new about that story in CNBC about JPM spliting in 4?
Some hours ago some posters posted about it, but now ...we can find nothing?
... is this another press blackout or it was just a rumor spread to pump?
Hi, Climber!
Here you have my answers to your two post:
1.- 4B timming: yes, THJMW could again delay it for a while by "taking it under advice" / even delaying it beyond the 60 days. Apart of it she has other two options: just ruling right now or ruling after the trial that is to be fixed within a couple of weeks. The hearing transcription gives clear signs that she plans for the 3rd choice: fix the trial in a near date and then rule. Frankly I think the 4B saga is about to end in days.
2.- Diving again down below $0.1. Here again, ... who can say it's impossible?. But I see it almost impossible, I am realy loaded as you know, and if this ever touches $0.15 again I would load even more, but I don't think I will have the chance again. In WMI there are enough fact's ground right now ( just with the 4b, excluded all the potential upsides) to support current low pps values.
This is not Lehman. In Lehman I am almost sure they will see again $0.05. In Lehman there is simply no ground ...what ever the assets they manage to rise in the next years ... the list and size of world-wide claimants, debts and creditors is just appalling. They will have to fight this over tens of diverse countries courts and law systems.
I have not a cristal ball, but these are my opinions about your questions.
Cheers...
Jest, .. nice graph..
our cases - specially the one in DC - will climb the hierachy up to the top... along with the stock price climb... in paralell
... unless they settle in due time.
Chiron, your view is really clean, I think you summarized very well the big game.
However I do feel we may see some intermediate steps before #2 in case #1 fails.
WMI's lawyers have already worked out the 4B, next battle front may be The trust: here the debt was left in WMI, but the value in WMB... very obvious and not fair at all...
It's something the BK judge could also rule in our favour if our lawyers start pushing it hard as they did with the 4b. It's neatly within her "scope" in the BK space.
Only these xtra $B would definitively make A>L and clean the path for a nice BK exit with commons intact, prefs at almost face value, creditors happy and still all the potential value that could come from discovery, the DC suit against FDIC, the NOLs, the trademarks, etc, etc...
Something like this would open a very promising period between #1 and #2 with WMI out of BK, cash in hand, only long term debt, and potentially tens of $B comming from the current litigations.
Out of BK means that large institutional investors and hedge funds could get involved pushing pps with real volume and it would be a nice target for a potential buyer interested in getting the cash, assuming just long term debt and handling these suits against JPM and FDIC. I mean for someone interested in holding JPM and FDIC "by their balls", if you allow me the expresion.
I really think WMI's lawyers will now not just focus in the discovery and settlement negotiations, but in making progress with the rest of claims - specially the Trust's one.
At any rate it will be really funny.
Cheers.
4b ruling dates.
You are right, the document filed by WMI is related to the conversation during the hearing ... with this doc. Weil/Quin just formally filed ..."everything is ready for you to rule, we have not more arguments to add". ... nothing is said about 11/25 because this is standard ...now formally the judge has 60 days to rule.
... but during the hearing they discussed a date between 5th and 9th Oct to fix the date. They finally agreed that the court's clerk will fix it. We will know the exact day very soon. But based in the hearing's conversation it's unlikely this will go to 11/25.
Bear in mind that the judge could just rule even without any summary trial, ... although it seems she was trying to find a near date for it.
Cheers.
Kuwekness...that link is not about WMI's numbers, but it's about FDIC as receiver for the WMB receivership balance.
The assets are the 1.9B paid by JPM, and the "other claimants" liabilities are most likely the claims presented by WMI against FDIC in the DC court.
The WMI numbers are filed in the BK court or at SEC but you will not find them at FDIC site.
Cheers.
Debt:
I did check in detail during my early DD back in fall 08. And WMI debt and liabilities were in the 8B, range where Assets were in the 7B range - the 4B deposit included, and the rest valued conservatively.
And the beauty - and somehow uniqueness - in this BK process is that the L is almost totally composed of very long term debt, with holders whose expectation is to get their interests paid regularily and the capital returned in a very long term period. There aren't any creditors in urgency to get paid to keep their business alive - as with most BK processes.
As far as I know ..the 8k reports and SOFAs filed regularily have never shown any surge in debt since then. It's true that IRS's filed some claims in BK as well as WMB's bondholders requested and obtained presence in the BK process. But none of these claims have made any progress so far or none of the claimants have presented any merit proof of claim yet.
So at this point and unless someone gives me some facts/docs showing otherwise ... currrent total debt is 8B+Prefs(3.7) = 11.7B. All long term.
I may be wrong here, but this are the facts I know about.
I hope it helps, cheers.
Where do you get 13B+Prefs debt from?
As far as I know WMI's debt is 8B. Most of it very lng term debt (up to 2049). Only 1-1.5 was due in 2009. You are right about the prefs....this is about 3.5-3.7B (interest included)
Again, as far as I know - an maybe I missed something - the rest is WMB debt, and the WMB's debt holders are just trying to be a party in the Bk court to protect their interests ... just in case the outcome put their interest at risk.
Did I miss something relevant here?
Cheers.
Uzual..Great summary of claims!
It helps to keep things in prespective... we've read it over months and your post really helps to get a complete view of claims.
Cheers.
Summary of Hearing today:
1.- Now we know the 4B will be ruled in max 15 days. With Logan's deposition ... it's game over ... money in the pocket.
2.- JPM NOTICE of divesture ruled as "Frivolous" / BK court keeps moving. ... (for a top firm as S/C the word "friovolous" should sound tough and ashaming)
These two points are not anymore my words, any poster words, neither WMI'S lawyers's words ... these are the judge words. ... finally we do have a deadline for the 4b summary judgement.
Now speculation:
Potential upsides (or downsides) for the next days/weeks: Sleet's answer( + or -) , possible subpoenas coming out of discovery ( always +) , possible settlement anyday/week/month/year ... (if it happens it would be a +, I guess we all strongly agree on this)
So what's the summary about today?
It could have been better. I do agree.
But now I do know that in about 15 days my shares will be worth -at least - several times what they are worth today - just and only considering the 4b ruling deadline.
... we longs, are in the right track, ... bumpy track, but the right track. .... whales have loaded millions of shares above 0.3 ,,, $Millions...
I was so scared when we touched $0.02, I used to be so happy with pps at $0.08, it was so comforting witnessing WMI sueing FDIC at the DC, I used to be so relaxed when we beated $0.1, I was so exited when THJMW rejected JPM's and FDIC initial motions to stay and dismiss, it was so great when we touched 0.2 and then stabilized around 0.l2. ... ..... now we touched 0.4 ... but I see some people depressed at 0.27
so what?? .... just relax and have a great weekend... we are just doing great!!
so what? .....
if you are in a hurry and you need cash or you are a daily trader, sell and go on, you are doing right. , if not ... just hold and move on. you are doing right too ... it's not such a big deal in the medium/long term. ... and this is the term that really matters...
barely anything significant in my life - and I consider myself lucky (even before this )- has moved so well as this investment in such a short period of time. ...
cheers ...
Hi, Climber.
Besides volume and pps performance, if you compare the day with the previous ones ...something new happened yesterday: the prefs reacted aligned with the commons.
The last time it happened was around March, and later on we discovered that during those days they were in serious settlement talks.
My assumption has always been that once the settlement aproaches there will be leakeages: too many attys, assistants, court employees, FDIC emplyees, etc .... even if only a small number of people know the exact terms, it's impossible that the possibility of an inminient settlement keeps secret.
So, I think that now - as well as in March - there has been some leakeages and this is making the difference over the natural climb related to the hearing, the 4B, etc.
It's all my opinion. Anyway, I am a happy camper for the long term, even if the current uptrend gets interrupted. I am still holding what I bought in Fall/2008.
Cheers...
Great summary XOM.
... now WMI is not just adding urgency/pressure to the 4B decision (leaving apart the discovery time bomb they placed under JD's chair) but to their whole original set of claims up to 10B too!!
... it's really like a theater..
Uzual.. 4% down still means +0.8% above current US $0.166.
Frankfurt is just adjusting to Friday's US closing.
It's the US market the one that drives this.
Cheers..
ILVMNY ..Logan's declaration...
... sorry, my previous answer had a link that seems to be obsolete.
Try this one:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ca9011ff03192032111096d429abd360e04e75f6e8ebb871
I hope it works.
ILVMNY, I am not sure if you are asking for the written declaration or for the "in-person" declaration that took place on August 28th at S&C offices.
The one that matters now is the "in-person" deposition, .. and as far as I know we have not heard about what happened that day. My guess is that it should have been pretty aligned to the written one. I expected references to it in court documents after that date, but we really have not a clue about it.
Here you can find a previous post with the link to the written declaration.
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=40874840
I hope this helps.
Cheers.
Logan's deposition...
guys, .. the written / signed under oath in front of a Notary declaration of Ms. Logan is great, yes. However it was covered in this board in detail in the past, ..and it was just the first step to what realy matters ... what happened last week:...
... her - in person - deposition at S&C offices, questioned by S&C (JPM lawyers) in front of a Court's employee and assisted by WMI's lawyers.
And we have not yet a clue about how this deposition went. I am eagerly waiting for any motion from any party refering to this deposition, so that we can check that it went as well as we ( at least me) expect.
We should learn about it before the hearing and I guess this would make the 4B topic a non-brainer thing to rule on.
Cheers..
Appeal to 3rd Circuit! Help!
I need the help from the lawyers in the board. See below the link to JPM's Appeals Request for Certification, filed 4th Sept.
http://www.box.net/shared/66rlakay6y
It's true that it does not bring new information in terms of facts and that it shows again the desperate need of JPM and FDIC to move this from BK to DC. Nothing new here.
But at this point I am lost regarding the court process. I understand that the BK process will progress in simultaneously to these moves from JPM and that for the moment the BK process cannot be stopped.
But:
How does this filing relates to the request to J. Sleet?
Let's assume that BK process moves on in the next weeks/months with rulings about: discovery, 4B, restructuring plan, etc.
How would any future (unlikely but still possible) success of JPM/FDIC with J.Sleet and/or this new filing would affect the decisions made by THJMW?
Would THJMW really feel free and empowered enough to progress decisively in the BK process before J.Sleet and this new filing are removed from the path?
It sounds to me strange that a company can exit BK, based on some rulings from a BK court that can later be overuled /questioned by other court's rulings. It would be like a fake restructuring, wouldn't it?
Frankly, in this subject I am lost. I would appreciate any help in this matter.
Thanks in advance and cheers.
... still holding my shares tight and long ...
L2 shows basically no real ceilings until well above 0.2...in the ask...
... in the bid there seems to be plenty of support before 0.16 and below...
So if nobody get nervous (too much an assumption, I know) ... it should work and break 0.2 again ..
mee too, ... poor guy, .. it was a small order but...
There seems to be real hunger for these shares, shake ups apart, the whales kept and keep loading millions of shares ... if this coutinues for an hour, ...the power hour can get frenzy!!
It's a bit uncomfortable not knowing - basically not having a solid clue - about the reason for this sudden demand.
Speculation about someone knowing something in advance is a possible explanation, ...
... but I really feel I need to know why? .. what's going on with those depositions of Logan and Discovery, what's on J. Sleet mind and when THJMW will rule on our 4B ( plus penalties ) ... all these things that put pressure on JPM/FDIC to settle.
Hopefully we will know soon.
My guess we will end green.
We expected gap-up, then shake up and moving forward.
Flippers are flipping and the whales are loading serious volume. Some big players want these shares, and they are buying... retail cannot load that much in 30 min.
Lehman dived down to 0.1 and now just hit 0.185 = +20%.
0.149 x 0.1491
0.1499 x 0.15
0.1495 x 0.1496, ..last order at 0.1496 ,, previous one at 0.15
0.148 x 0.149 and last pre-market orders at 0.149 250,000 shares
0.145 x 0.147