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But what if that one juror is wanting to award what is right? If mistrial, then maybe it gets a whole lot more interesting and more gets exposed. Devil is in the details... I honestly don't think any of those 8 women will be thrilled by being "talked down too" which I'm betting government lawyers did, and Lamberth, possibly. It seems H. Hume did a stellar job explaining in as close to layman's terms as you could get without insulting the jurors intelligence.
Also the judge is supposed to push the jury for a verdict up and until it becomes an unreasonable amount of time and those opposing just wont budge. They've sequestered jurors for full days in a row to puch a verdict out. I don't think this will get hung. There's too much fact that has been spilled. If any of those women are invested, which it is likely most are, then they will possibly take an ivestors position on this, which would not be well for the governments tangled web defense. If I was on this jury, I'd be wearing both my citizen hat that believes strictly in the constitution/rule of law, and my investor hat which believes in the rules and laws that apply to investor protections so we can invest in as fair as possible, markets driven by capitalism and NO OTHER "ism".
H.H. needs to bring up the current unreported profits in court now! If they are not made public by the time he does his closing argument, he needs to point this out directly to the jurors and let them see real time, the governments never ending manipulation of information detrimental to governments bogus tale. It should have been out days ago. Screw Lamberth, tell the jurors this cold fact. If they can manipulate an earnings report release, they can manipulate a hell of a lot more. The jury will no doubt understand that.
As far as nagoya's poll goes on what will be awarded. I'd like to see the government pay us the 1.6 billion , but we also get 1.6 in equity of FHFA and treasury. They can also never stop oweing us the 1.6 billion until we have a joint act of shareholders approving their release from the 1.6B debt . For every month they will need to send us the 1.6 billion ad infinitum, and our equity in both FHFA and treasury will go up that exact corresponding amount every month until we release them of the debt. This is because we loaned them the 1.6 originally, so these are our terms...
So put me down in the poll as a 1.6 billion NWS slow bleed return mafia favor.
There ya go! That's a perfect opening and closing line for Hamish H. to use. Beautifully stated.
Some food for thought....
How come Hume does not bring up the fact that if the GSE's were in a death spiral, then what would you call the federal governments debt problem? How are they qualified to conserve 2 companies like the GSE's when they have never passed a balanced budget in my memory, for very long time (2001)? Letting the government be conservators of the GSE's is like letting a person with a TV channel shop-aholic problem, a bunch of monoply money, and 20 maxed out credit cards, be in charge of your checkbook and running your household. No budget oriented person in their right mind thinks government is financially competent. At the time government stole these companies, the government was in far worse shape than the GSE's! And that has not changed, 30 trillion in debt now for the government,mso where is their 10 trillion capital requirement? Why can't we the people put them in conservatorship? They can print monoply money all they want, but we lose financially everytime they do.
Maybe if Hume pointed out this side bar information the jury would start seeing this situation much more clearly. Also, where in the constitution does it allow the following to put a company and prvate citizen property holders in conservatorship? : the treasury, the federal reserve and a rogue non comforming made up branch of government the FHFA. I've never read it in any Amendment. Congress whole HERA is a bastardization of our constitutions protections.
Could be other case like moneyrobot says, OR it could be those motions filed at 1a.m. the other day, that were sealed.
There's probably a ton going on behind the scenes that we or the jury are not fully privy too. I will say it again though, Lamberth better correct his first ruling on this that started the whole shyt show. This has, and will have far reaching implications the next time a big company or industry is in financial trouble in this country, the next bad down turn. This is being watched by more than just us, I'm sure. Maybe not for investing in, but surely any CEO or BOD is going to be following the governments over reach on this so they can be prepared when their turn comes.
In my opinion..
It looks to me that Lamberth is trying to appease neither side. Like he's trying to play grade school principle between two kids that have had a little fight. He needs to wake up and recognize who started it and continues to be a liar, and who was really injured.
Exactly! The trading price has been affected based on governments "leaked" information to media oulets for years, which puts a stragle hold on the GSE'S stock prices. Maybe this case and future cases should focus on forcing government to do its job! To switch from its obvious unconservatorship to actually conserving. It's a lame excuse by now to keep saying Congres blah, blah, blah should act. Those involved know dam well Congress will dead lock on this and nothing will ever be done. The courts should see this whole situation for what it is, an illegal milking of the companies based on their talking points about some future release that never comes to fruition. The courts should be exerting more pressure to push this in the direction that FHFA, treasury have purposely negligent too.
Every day this continues, shareholders are harmed. The government is trying to make it look like their confiscation of record profits was a happy accident because they boo, boo'd in predicting the future increase in earnings, which stinks to high heavens.
Highest court in the land was absolutely not privy to the facts coming out here, so I have no doubt that their ruling can be re-challenged, based on what the outcome is here. The SCOTUS will look at their ruling much like Lamberth is looking at his past ruling now, a whole lot more skeptical (pun intended) in government defense terms...they were essentially lied too on the whole premise of this and sided with govenment based on an assumption that government ALWAYS does the right thing, just like Lamberth was, which we are seeing exposed as the big lie that every taxpayer knows that it is.
That is frick'n beyond criminal, considering how much they actually stole during that time period. No way in hell do they get to do anything with those warrants except pitch in the trash. This jury trial is getting my temper and anger up.....anyone else?
Brooge buddy, hate to see ya throwing the towel in! There seems to be a lot of pertinent testimony coming out in this trial, which is dam good for us. Unlike other trials where the judges held all the cards close to their chests, and then came up with their BS opinions, we actually may have a better chance here, I think. I am really hoping the majority of that jury are investors, like 7 out of 9. They would be very attuned to our grievances then.
Robert, I think Sandra Thompson should still be questioned by H. Hume...most definitely since she is the new FHFA boss.
Questions to ask her in front of this jury:
- will conservatorships with NWS's be the norm now for government taking over companies they decide are to big to fail, including other than banks and financial istitutions under FHFA?
-what is the plan to release GSE's ? If the answer is only Congressional action, when has a bipartisanship ever happened on something so partisan as the GSE's? Please elaborate on all the "action" from congress on this in the past 14 years. Action by congress has now been the response for 14 years, so when is it happening?
Do you see all investors as a benefit to the GSE situation? Or are they nothing but evil hedge funds? (After this question is answered read off a list of personal investors) 100's of or thousands to make a point! Humanize our situation so jury can see the miscarriage of conservatorship going on.
-true or false, is the running and viability of the FHFA overly dependent on GSE's profits sweep? If no, explain where FHFA then gets its funding for operations since they are not funded by congress.
-please list actual steps you've taken since being appointed FHFA, needed to release the GSE's. Also list what you've enacted for affordable housing and where the financing for that affordable housing comes from. (She's absolutely done more to hurt than help release, spent billions)
Do the GSE's need investors? If yes, then should investors, like in most all other companies, benefit from the risk of their capital invested?
Does the FHFA adhere to capitalist market principles? If yes, how, in your opinion, does a NWS of a companies profits serve as a conservation tool? Does it strengthen or weaken the current GSE's? How does it strengthen or weaken in your opinion?
I could go on...but these questions I think many of us would love to know, and only she can answer....so since she is essentially the CEO/CFO/Cairman of the board concerning everything GSE, and since those appointed to those positions are nothing more than government lackeys who follow her marching orders, she needs to be pressed hard by Hume to demonstrate how dire and politically cluster fuc'd our situation truly is now, and in the future.
MIA, your position and thoughts on this whole messed up government take over are much the same as mine.
I am delegated to the 1 post a day crowd for quite some time now. I read this board, yahoo and the tweets that everyone posts. By the way.....Thank you to all who are providing court updates, links, daily play by play. Especially thanks to those actually going to the court personally.
If this jury has any principles, morals, then we will get a fair shake. Lamberth had better not cloudy up the end verdict by stipulating onerous jury instructions at the end. If he does this, then we all know he is still putting tge fix in for the government cartel.
Right there with you MIA!. I'm not buying the governments kabuki theater show. They absolutely know they could not bankrupt the GSE's and it is why Ombama got so bent about it, hence the takeover by theft disguised as a death spiral NWS elaborated with a bunch of made up terms and excuses. This was not only a nationalisation by theft but a way for them to try and keep the markets from punishing the government and economy, if they would have ever portended the GSE'S were bankrupt. The Obama administration shut their yap real quick after mentioning bankruptcy a few times, testing the markets, business medias reaction and banks reactions.
They know, and have known the GSE'S are TINA and to big to fail. This whole being held in limbo is a jointly supported, behind the scenes ploy put together by some players on both sides of the aisle, that has become an administration football for every new administration elected. Total farce and deep state endeavor.
My thoughts are it can not keep going on forever, somethings gotta give eventually. Maybe the same group who was vocal and the cause of the GSE CONservatorships (the banks) will be the ones who finally are made to demand them being released, and/or sue the government to release? The government is actually treating the banks worse by stealing all profits, controlling G-fees, mandating loan rules, etc., God knows what else, and that keeps chipping away at banks loan profits, so slowly bleeding the banks by using the GSE'S politically, which most banks do not want, I believe.
Thankfully this case IS getting some much needed exposure! Hopefully more media will start to get engaged as the truth is trickled out during this trial. I'm with those here who are saying that any win in this trial bodes well for us. Existing cases will have more "ammo" to go after the government and maybe, just maybe some of the numerous cases dismissed by other courts can be resuscitated and brought back to life.
This is what white collar robbery with a pen looks like.
Does it make any sense that the GSE's pay any damages when the DOJ is providing the lawyers to defend the government theft on all these cases? Could Hamish Hume maybe ask Lamberth this? Not one of all these cases has legal representation from the companies, not for us, not for the government, yet by the circular insane logic the government claims if they lose defending this case it will come from company and shareholders pockets.
8 women and 1 guy is not a sign of a good financially savvy jury, to me either. It's a known fact in many investment articles that women are far less likely to handle their own investments like stocks, 401k, IRA. they leave the more complicated investments and planning to an advisor. So, not a good jury for this case just based on that. Humes job will be more difficult in explaining the intricacies of this cluster muck.
I agree with jeddiemack also! How is it we are given 6% interest on any award, when government started this with its already onerous mob like 10% loan interest, then jumped to 100% of everything! Is Lamberth awake?
From the governments own site:
It's a little bit of a read, but a good article on what is happening, and what will be coming. I've been yelling stagflation for over a year now, and now it's becoming more prevalent in the news.
https://time.com/6221771/stagflation-crisis-debt-nouriel-roubini/
This will not bode well for us and is likely to extend further this messed up CONservatorship boondoggle. Government morons will not want to release either GSE into this messed up economy, especially now that it is becoming a global nightmare. On a positive note, since housing will be suffering from now and until we are back to a normal economic situation, the government will not be able to leech as much money out of us as they have in the past, so maybe that will be their incentive to finally release us? When we become more work for them opposed to a free money piggy bank, then they may finally do what is needed.
I still have hope in midterms....if we get the veto proof majorities, there's much more of an optimistic future for us. Granted we will not be a top of the list priority, but we will garner a higher importance than with previous administrations. The key will be how quickly a veto proof majority can clean up what has been going on in dysfunction DC quickly, so that the issues affecting the economy and country can be addressed in a timely manner. If they do things right, 2024 will be a shoe in for the veto proof majorities candidate, then, I would be much more confident of release not long after the 2024 election, if it has not already been prioritized by then.
Good luck fellow investors. We need it.
.The lower and lower share prices on commons and prefs over the years, is also a loud testament to the lousy job of PRESERVING AND CONSERVING that the FHFA and treasury are supposed to be in charge of. Brittney still had millions when she was released. With the current idiot clown posse and all the talk of them wanting to rob more, plus the plain stupid liquidation prefference, that would mean GSE's will be released a whole lot poorer.
We need damages for future "no confidence" in these idiots to do the right thing.
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/home-sales-are-going-to-nosedive-in-2023-fannie-mae-says/
The fed swaps value from peoples homes to higher interest paid to banks and the GSE's, open theft from every homeowner, in the GSE's case the extra interest money is stolen by treasury and FHFA. Add to that your 401k and IRA's are approaching one half their value two years ago and prices on everything going up, except the mysterious "shrink-flation" going on. Yet some 38% would still vote to have this nightmare continue!
IMHO Lamberth can not correct his first screw up monetarily with damages, because it would need to be huge in my opinion. He is the first and foremost judge who started all this ruling by contortionism of a word or a few words and twisting meanings of what many HAD undestood before, like preserve and conserve. How does he unscramble his egg that he made? By allowing the lies the first time and not doing a deeper dive to help defend government, he shot himself in the foot (I'm sure he see's he was told many more lies than just the Ugoletti lie). How does he correct this miscarriage of justice? Which is what it is. If he has a conscience he would stop defending this fiasco and rule on facts, statements, no more contortionist or pretzel type circular logic incorporated into a nonsensical ruling. He started this.....he needs to finish it right and just.
Can't imagine who would answer #6 yes, with 31 trillion in debt, numerous wasted wars, and anyone with a pulse who knows special interests and lobbyists run DC. LOL
Says the guy not living in reality! Lol admit you have no idea how this ends, why is that so hard? It is a totally new and screwed up initiated law the government is weaving as they advance it through the courts, AND bankruptcy is not going to happen. They will do one of two things....release or takeover, and neither of those will bode well necessarily for JPS, just because someone says some baloney that is not treasury, FHFA or president backed.
That's one thing that is total bull, statute of limitations on any of this! With how the courts and government lawyers keep burning that limitation time up on every case ( postpone, extension, reschedule, you name it) , that in itself is criminal. Every time a postponement is proposed by the courts or government that limitations time clock should be reset for any other future claims. They are doing just as planned, by running the clock out. The only way you beat that is by filing successively new court cases every few years, but then all the perpetrators walk scott free since their dirty hands, all the sudden, become clean with a passage of time! Total BS! They need to treat cases like the GSE cases, the way the treat rape cases now, where a perpetrator can be persued far after 7 years.
Fantastic and impressive career Navy! I am sorry to be late to commending you on that. I have but one post a day now for months since someone on ihub is extremely bent at me, due to my firm belief in freedom of speech.
Your shuttling of the popes entourage is something I guess you or anyone else would never forget. People like yourself and others on this board who have served with honor and integrity have every right to expect the same from our politicians. It's too bad every poltician is not required to have a minimum of like 4 years military service, the better politicians, in my opinion are X service members , especially those like yourself with numerous years of REAL service to our country.
I envy those like you who were able to sevrve, since having lost my hearing at 18, they would not allow me to sign up. Although I was sent a draft notice around the time before dessert storm because there was a period when they thought more troops were going to be needed, I would have showed up if called, even though I would have been denied. My childhood best friend who I had planned to sign up with, went 20+ years and retired from the airforce.
God bless all who have served honorably and with integrity!
That was a total bullshit, cover their azz, bunch of inept gibberish so they can hide decision. Proven by the very well written and stated opinion of the descent judge Thapar. Why are the descent judges, who are right in their observations of the law and constitution in all these cases, in the minority or standing alone? That bodes very very badly for us as a country! Not just these GSE cases. It's no wonder there is miniscule faith in our government and judicial systems.
Halarious hahahaha. And best lampoon of a useless court system. Especially liked this part:
This is the fifteenth page of a convoluted legal filing intended to deconstruct the societal implications of parody, so the reader’s attention is almost certainly wandering. That’s understandable. So here is a paragraph of gripping legal analysis to ensure that every jurist who reads this brief is appropriately impressed by the logic of its argument and the lucidity of its prose: Bona vacantia. De bonis asportatis. Writ of certiorari. De minimis. Jus accrescendi. Forum non conveniens. Corpus juris. Ad hominem tu quoque. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Quod est demonstrandum. Actus reus. Scandalum magnatum. Pactum reservati dominii.
We are in for the perfect storm my friends!!! The Hurricane in Florida and Carolinas will add to the GSE negative bottom line, we have sky high home mortgage rates (7.5% 30yr avg now) knocking down demand. If there was material shortages before because of not enough homes being built, so now rebuilding the large area in Florida will compound that. Yellen and Deese both saw this coming when the hurricane was days away so they started to announce their departures because of their failed following of current administration policies and one too many things going wrong that can be laid at their feet. They don't want to be around to have to clean up the mess they created and it will get worse as this recession gets dug deeper in. We also have in the news today that many new home buyers (mostly millenials) during the pandemic fiasco are now wanting out of their top of the market purchases of homes that they did not fully vet and evaluate or inspect correctly. Can you say 2008 walk aways? Drop the keys at the bank AGAIN!
This is all going to be hits on the capital that the GSE's have currently. The government will dig the GSE hole deeper for us to sink their claws in deeper, I have no doubt, even though nothing I've mentioned in previous paragraph is, or was in control of the GSE's. The government will use our capital to cover the losses that are for sure to develop from the things I mention. Preserve and conserve will be thrown out the door.
I'm usually an optimist on things GSE, I own 250k FMCC FNMA combined, that's my vote of confidence in what I had assumed. I have also believed in rule of law and karma pertaining to our situation. The government has succeeded in guiding us from one disaster they created to and even larger one they also created now! If the midterms do not bring us real serious change, the GSE's may well be doomed, regardless of court cases. If we were to be released now, we would be re-taken over in six months with all the foreseeable losses coming our way. Banks are not failing again.... yet, but insurance companies are in Florida, who will assume the losses from an insurer unable to cover? How long before the current group see's the 100billion plus in GSE reserve loss capital? JMHO.
Thank you for thst informative article!
Yellen and that crook Brian Deese, they see the writting on the wall of total abject failure of this economy. They don't want to be there when the real poop hits the fan. Hoping their names will be forgotten, just like Deese did when he was involved with this fiasco.
There goes the Sondra/Yellen administrative release party with a gigantic conversion and cap raise that some were dreaming.
I have been saying for a year now, midterms will provide our new direction. Even though Thompson is direct report to the president now, if midterms gives a a house majority, Hera can be changed to correct the constitutional defects. Have a board opposed to the single director, plus an expedient release.
Have ANY of the lawyers for our cause contacted or asked those whose opinions might count, to be expert witnesses? Like his honor professor emeritus Epstein? Tim Howard? Or Ralph Nader - a known consumer advocate for years? I'd also love for the lawyers to get all 4 presidents on the stand and ask why, why, why did they not finish this business of the people since it affects every homeowner, buyer, seller.
Good luck and God bless those in Florida in tge path of Ian. Be safe and well.
We're being used as a 20.1% stay out of super debt jail card by the swindlers. So they can take everything with no real responsibility. Death spiral - a lie, stolen equity - a lie, vilifying shareholders - a lie, protecting tax payers - BIGGEST lie on earth, exact opposite! Money funneling to treasury that both parties usurped through shadow accounting to fund pet projects. Bankruptcy -, a lie, all concocted.
So we are only useful for keeping that debt headline away, and a public lynch mob that would entail if the GSE'S debts had to be assumed. Heck, we're like 30-31 trillion already in debt as a country, like over 100k for every USA man, woman and child, and not many are screaming about it, if government added the GSE's debt, with the way media is... They'd probably get away with it, and by the same token screw all of us commons and JPS holders. JMHO
MIA, after SCOTUS decision, FHFA head is answerable to the president. Treasury is answearable to the president. President CAN tell treasury, pay FHFA back the money awarded. I am of the mind that no way should GSE LOSE capital or pay anything. The GSE'S were put where they are based on self dealing agreements between two branches who are BOTH answerable to the president now. But whatever Biden does, if he is indeed involved, pretty good chance it will probably be screwed up JMHO.
Uuh-Ummm, how about: If you get a home loan at a bank, you pay it for 30 years. If you rob a bank you're out in 10 years. Follow me for more financial advice.
I dont live in a closet, fly kites or eat ramen by beach bonfire light with my homies.
Just a common investor
Who's lawyers are defending in the Lamberth case? The GSE'S? If it's the DOJ then that means government, if it's government, then that means either FHFA or treasury should dam well be on the hook for any damages. The GSE's have not been run as public free companies since 2008. FHFA and treasury called all the shots that are the cause of all the litigation. Does not the Lamberth list in the original case filed shareholders against FHFA and treasury? Thompsons and Yellens names are there, so it's a stretch to say damages come from the companies in my opinion. Lawyers need to address this possibly with Lamberth.
It is through mismanagement or extortion from government that lead to the contract claims suit. GSE's are in conservatorship and are not allowed to be influenced by shareholders rights or votes, only governments. Shareholders would have not allowed a NWS or skipped dividends knowing what we know. The conservatorship usurped ALL shareholder and BOD autonomy, Government is on record saying as much. If that's the case, then government reaps what they sew! If they (reap) steal the money illegally, then darn right, they pay it back (sew). If Lamberth is any kind of real judge he will see to it the companies suffer no harm from this if a damage award is given. IMHO
Very good article! Thank you kip. We need a lot more positive exposure like this so the truth can be bled out of this unlawful, unhinged theft of a conservatorship.
Good stuff! And very true.
You have a searay???? Well... There goes my paddle boat one up.
The last reply on that twitter thread was very true! The treasury and FHFA benefited from an engineered housing boom. Maybe that's what Calabria, Mnuchin were planning? Make the GSE's look smoking profitable before raising capital & releasing? They did not foresee this inflation mess though and the inflationary housing prices that transpired.
Still, you can bet they knew by stimulating a housing boom, more money would flow from the GSE's to treasury and FHFA pockets. Criminal. It's like how the mafia ran numbers games. They get away with this stuff because they can and the courts are not business or ecnomic savvy enough to understand what the government corporate thieves are really doing in their planning and scheming.
Won't be a utility.
DC is District of Crooks
I want the GSE lawyers to ask the government:. Why were all the banks sued for their scheming but not the GSE's? If they respond GSE'S we're put in conservatorship, ask then, why were the banks not put in also? Why were a group of banks allowed to pay pennies on the dollar for their immoral behavior, while the GSE'S are being robbed blind daily, weekly, monthly, yearly? If the GSE'S we're hoodwinked by the banks, then why did the banks rate a soft punishment? Also, Why has government constantly vilified the GSE's even though they bailed the banks out, bailed the government from COVID and are currently being used to give mortgages cheap to people just because of their skin color?
Lawyers, please ask the hard questions! No more pussyfooting around. The lawyers need to point out to the jury the governments cozy unscrupulous relationship with banks.
Have you not seen the public approval ratings of congress/Senate/government as a whole? I think it's somewhere north of like 16% or 18%. They are trusted about the same as the media now, lol.
If the jury is truly representative of the public, those slides will work magic for us. Why do you think government is contesting them? The more obscure, obfuscated and mind dizzying the government clown pose can make things, the more uncertainty they sew within the jury. GSE Lawyers bringing a clear cut bunch of visuals and charts that are easy to understand will work just fine.
Then ALSO! What about the part of HERA that says if any part of the law is found to be blah, blah, blah, then the whole thing is null and void. I can't remember word for word, quote of what that section said, but it stated if any part of it was found lacking by a court the whole sha-bang was without merit. I would say not having a board of equally (Republican, Democrat) appointed directors has been majorly detrimental for years and is allowing the current FHFA head to give away our capital. Thereby prolonging the release we should have had already.
They started with non appointed director serving indefinitely without congress/Senate approval then also insulated from the constitutions over riding law. Now they say a board is needed....hmmmm so wtf is all that transpired under single directors? Dimarco, Watt, Calabria and now Thompson! Get a dam board appointed, NOW. government has known this since SCOTUS yet appointed another FHFA head clown.
Right there with you Guido! Those warrants are exactly what they are called, a backing. If the money grubbers in DC get their way, I will join any warrant suit.
Warrants:
A stock warrant is a derivative contract between a public company and an investor. A warrant gives the holder the right to buy or sell shares of stock to or from the issuing public company at a specified price before a specified date. Holders of warrants are under no obligation to buy or sell the underlying stocks
As far as I know, there's been no specified price to sell, in the warrant contract, but there is a date. There is a purchase price which is byond a joke! Notice it says holders of warrants are under no obligation to buy or sell. The warrants were a collateral device in case of whatever loan was given, was defaulted. The loan was bogus! Make believe! And was paid back plus! Any kind of assumption by government that they are entitled to more off the backs of our companies with these warrants should be met with fierce retaliation and never give in stamina!