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After several years of holding this non-trading stock, I finally had my brokerage remove the shares from my account so that I could take the tax loss on them this year.
Goodbye and good luck to anyone still holding out any hope here.
With all the gains in other stocks this year, it would probably be a good year to finally declare the SVMI stocks in my portfolio worthless and take the tax loss credit, but I may give it one more year.
Anyone else already do this? What happens if you declare them worthless, and then by some unforeseen and highly unlikely miracle, they do start to trade again?
SportsToy,
you stated:
To the person who recently sent me a PM: I am a free member, so the only time I can reply to a PM is during "happy hour" (one hour after market close on Friday). I will get back to you, but it will have to wait until the next time I am online during "happy hour"
truethat,
I'll agree with you that I would like to just sell the shares for a loss for tax purposes. At the end of last year, I started looking at what it would take to declare a stock worthless for tax purposes. Specifically, what I was trying to find out was if I declared them worthless, and then the company surprised me by getting listed again in the future, would I then just handle the shares as though they had a zero cost basis?
When I looked into it, I got the impression that if there even was a slim chance that they could someday trade again, then you couldn't declare them worthless. I read quite a few articles on it (one of them linked below).
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/writing-off-a-worthless-stock.aspx
Some notes from the linked article:
Worthless means zero value
Before you can use this tax break, the stock must be totally worthless.
Just because a company is in bankruptcy, or its stock isn't trading, doesn't necessarily mean it's worthless.
Documentation for the IRS
When you report a worthless-stock transaction, you don't have to put the details of the stock's demise on your return. However, tax experts say if you're questioned by the IRS, you need to be prepared to show:
There is no hope investors will ever get anything for their holdings. This isn't always easy, so do your homework.
When the security became worthless. You must reasonably determine the date the stock lost all its value.
Once you're armed with that information, it's time to report your loss.
Filling out the form.
Report the valueless stock in either Part I or Part II of Form 8949, depending on whether it was a short-term or long-term holding. If an asset became worthless during the tax year, it is treated as though it were sold on the last day of the year. That could affect whether your capital loss is a short- or long-term one.
The comment that the fact that the stock isn't trading doesn't necessarily mean it's worthless is the one that gave me the biggest concern. (My interpretation is if there is any chance that it will ever trade again, it can't be declared worthless). It seems to me that short of Serge admitting to us that they are never going to trade again, it will be difficult to ever prove the stock to be worthless.
Based on how well the start of this year has gone (for other investments, not SVMI), this does look like it would be a good year to take the loss on this one. In the research I've done so far, I have not found anything that proves to me that I can do this (declare my SVMI stock worthless). If there is anyone with expertise in this field that can point me to good info on the subject, I would appreciate it.
Assuming that the merger is approved and the deal gets done:
For tax purposes, would the $5.43/share in cash be treated the same as if the shares were sold for $5.43/share on the open market?
Also, the proxy statement states:
Pursuant to the terms of the merger agreement, if approved, upon completion of the merger, each outstanding share of Genworth common stock immediately prior to the effective time of the merger (other than those owned by dissenting stockholders who timely and properly demand appraisal under Delaware law) would be converted into the right to receive $5.43 per share, in cash, without interest and less any applicable withholding taxes.
So, if I hold my shares in a brokerage account (TDAmeritrade), would this "right to receive $5.43 per share, in cash" happen automatically, or would I need to contact them to tell them I would like to excercise my right to receive $5.43/share?
NC Jim,
A risky decision by an individual investor to buy stock of a non reporting company, and poor management by a company (failing to report or to generate any meaningful sales), are not mutually exclusive. It is poor management regardless of what the individual investor's decision making process was.
You can root for them, and get behind what they are trying to do all you want, but that does not change the fact that the management of this company has been poor. I've got millions of non-tradeable shares, so I am also rooting for them (although I am not holding out a whole lot of hope that I will ever see a dime for my shares, unless one of my fellow shareholders on this board follows through on his bluff that nobody here would be willing to sell for half the last trade price.)
And although they have been non-reporting for a very long time, it is not quite 10 years. They would have been considered to be reporting until April 5, 2008. On March 31, 2008, they filed the NT 10-K for the year ending Dec 31, 2007. Their failure to file the 10-K by 5 days after that date is when they became a non-reporting company.
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bogey,
Regarding your statement.
As I read about this, my thought is that it may be cool technology to be able to do this, but I have a hard time seeing how it will be able to be used beneficially in car exhaust systems.
When dissociating carbon dioxide (CO2), one could have a partial dissociation to carbon monoxide (CO) and oxygen, or a complete dissociation to carbon and oxygen. I assume that the partial dissociation to carbon monoxide and oxygen is not what they are touting, since this would be making things worse, not better (and would be doing the opposite of what a catalytic converter is doing). Also, since they state a complete elimination of exhaust fumes (and carbon monoxide would certainly be considered a fume), I assume that it is not carbon monoxide that is being formed.
Therefore, I will assume that this device converts carbon dioxide to carbon and oxygen. The difficulty I see in using this for car exhausts is: how are the carbon particles that are formed by this process to be handled? For every gallon of gasoline that is burned, approximately 5 lbs of carbon particulates would be formed.
For an industrial exhaust stack, I could see how you would have a system in place to separate and collect the solid carbon particles (which could then potentially be used for other applications), but how will they be handled in a car exhaust?
holter,
The TDAmeritrade mobile app seems somewhat confused by SVMI as well. In the last week, my account value has bounced up and down a couple of times as the SVMI share value has been added and subtracted. The TDA website has not had the same issue.
The Boy Wonder:
You stated that no person here will sell you their stock even at 50% of the value.
Don't be so sure about that.
Previously, you offered 10%, and concluded that the fact that nobody took you up on it meant that most are confident that the company will trade again. This is not necessarily a valid conclusion. I have no confidence that this company will ever trade again. I expect that my shares will be a total loss, and will be pleasantly surprised if I turn out to be wrong.
So, you may ask: If I feel that way, why wouldn't I take you up on your offer? After all, even 10% is better than nothing.
The reason is that I have too many questions of how this transaction would work, and for 10% it's not worth the effort to pursue it.
First, I don't know if I even could sell my shares to you. They are currently in a TDAmeritrade account, so I suspect I would have to request them in certificate form to sell them to you. I don't know if I can even get the certs for a de-listed stock.
Second, the tax loss credit is worth more than the 10% you are offering. Certainly, if I were able to sell my shares at 10% of their last trade price through TDAmeritrade, I would have a record of this sale, so I would be able to receive the proceeds from this sale, plus still claim the tax loss. If I were to pull the certs (if I am even able to) and mail them to you, and you mail the check for 10% to me, then how will I have any record of this transaction for tax loss purposes? Even if I can never sell them again, I can eventually declare them worthless and claim the tax loss. Without the record of the transaction with you, the lost ability to claim the tax loss would be worth more than the 10% that you are offering.
I'm sure the above questions are easily answerable, but for 10% it's not worth the trouble to find out. Plus, for just 10% I'll just keep the shares on the off-chance they might someday trade again. (Basically, the same mentality used when buying a lottery ticket that I fully expect to lose my money on.)
Now, if you are confident enough that the company will trade again that you are willing to offer 50%, then it might be worth pursuing.
holter,
TDAmeritrade says so. They zeroed out the value of my shares the other day. (I saw posts from someone else indicating that some other brokerage site zeroed them out a while ago, but TDAmeritrade just did it in the last couple days.)
DFW
Regarding your question about why the 8k has not shown up on EDGAR:
The text below (copied and pasted from the SaviCorp website) is likely the reason why the 8k is not yet on EDGAR. I would not expect to see the 8K until after the Form 10.
(The "From 10" rather than "Form 10" is Savi's typo on the website, not mine)
*This is the latest 8K quarterly filing for SaviCorp which will be posted to the SEC EDGAR site once we complete the SEC From 10 to become re-listed. SaviCorp council is currently working to re-list SVMI at which time this 8K will be filed as per regulations with SEC.
DFW,
Certainly, over the years, there have been many a day with little or no trading volume. I really thought that the Flying Glob news might change that for good.
Unfortunately, the market's overall response to the news release, both in terms of price and volume, appears to indicate that not many people really believe the sales figures given in the Flying Glob PR are ever going to happen.
I understand that only a relatively few people are even aware of this company and this stock. I also understand that a decent amount of the people that believe in this company already own millions of shares and may not be inclined to buy more. However, we have seen on a few occasions that there is enough interest to at least push the daily volume into the double digit millions when there is optimism that good things are about to happen for the company. Double digit millions would seem like a fairly low bar for a company with 6 Billion Commons outstanding, but, as you know, it is well over what we typically see.
But even more than the volume, the price really indicates that not many believe we will ever see revenues even close to what the PR (and subsequent filings) estimated we would see. Here we sit at a market cap of about 25 million (based on 6 billion outstanding), or maybe 30 something million (based on fully diluted), when the PR estimated yearly revenues over 100 million. How many companies sell at a small fraction of expected revenues? Apparently, the market does not share these revenue expectations.
I would actually be curious if the following statement is true:
GOSAVI,
You stated:
DFW,
Yes, indeed the share structure is a bit of a problem. I recall we had some posts about the fully diluted share count when the unaudited financials showed that they were clearly over the 6 billion authorized. I continue to wonder how they will resolve this. Clearly there are at least three options:
1. Increase of the authorized
2. Reverse split
3. Share buyback or retirement.
Obviously most investors would love if option 3 were employed. Until last week's news, that seemed like a bit of a pipe dream, but now, who knows?
I assume that you saw in the 8K that they added more preferred shares (further increasing the fully diluted share count).
coolhandluke88,
You asked:
Bogey,
You stated that the market cap is $24 million. With 6 billion outstanding and a share price of ~0.006, the market cap would be around $36 million.
The licensing fee alone should bring in $30 million. (Granted, it is payable over the 5 years of the contract, so we don't have it in hand now.) Assuming that this contract does not fall through and we eventually do get this fee, then it by itself almost "pays" for the full current market cap. Any profit from the sales of the Dynovalves should clearly push the price higher.
Unless I am really mis-interpreting the recent PR and 8k, it seems like this stock should definitely go significantly higher once the revenues start coming in. I realize that in the past, despite being a shareholder for years, my posts about this company have not always been overwhelmingly positive. However, I honestly was not ever sure that we would see news like we did last week. The news even prompted me to add to my position which until a week ago I NEVER thought I would do again. My thinking is that in the long term, the market tends to get the price right, but in the short term sometimes it misses. My belief is that the fact that only a relatively few people are aware of this contract (or even this company) is creating a situation where the share price is (I hope temporarily) undervalued.
Of course, for this contract, (as in many contracts) the devil is in the details. We have heard that production capacity of Dynovalves had been increased (likely in anticipation of this contract), but I do not know what the per unit cost will be to make and ship the Dynovalves. In the past, Serge wanted a price point of ~400 (which I believe was too high). In fact, on the current website that was posted on this board last week, that is still the price point. If you look at the total expected revenue from this contract divided by the total number of valves to be shipped, the per unit price is ~115. (Of course, the ~400 price included installation, which the ~115 price does not.) I'm not sure what the profit margin on this ~$115 will be.
Also, another "devil in the details" is what will happen if Flying Glob is not able to as many Dynovalves as the contract calls for. However, even if Flying Glob were to only sell half as many valves as the contract calls for (and I AM NOT stating that this will be the case), then it still seems like the current stock price is a bargain.
Mudd572,
You stated:
otcgambler:
Great news. In all my years following this company, this is easily the best PR to date.
It's good to see that Serge was finally much more realistic on the price point, and it resulted in by far the most sales we've ever had.
Previously, we were told that Savi was taking steps to ramp up their production capability. Hopefully, they can make enough to keep up with this deal, and at a cost that gives a decent profit margin on the units that Flying Glob buys.
GOSAVI,
Yes, the last trade was at 0.0028, however the spread is a ridiculously wide 0.0018 x 0.0028. So, if the next trade is at the bid, we will be back down to 0.0018.
InvestorY (off topic)
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Oceans11,
Although I agree with you that the Executive Order received by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) is definitely a good thing, I thing you are very much overselling what it states.
First of all, you referred to it as CARB certification. It is not a certification (in fact, the document specifically states that it is not a certification).
Your reply was in response to a message string started when another poster stated that there is not independent testing that verifies that the dynovalve works, and you offered this CARB certification (your incorrect wording, not mine) as evidence that there is independant testing that it does work.
A link to the CARB Executive Order is pasted below
http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-677.pdf
Note, that it does not state that the product does work. Basically, what it states is that the product meets the "do no harm" requirement. Specifically, it states that the Dyno Valve has been found not to reduce the effectiveness of the applicable vehicle pollution control systems.
Further, it states:
THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A CERTIFICATION, ACCREDITATION, APPROVAL, OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF ENDORSEMENT BY THE AIR RESOURCES BOARD OF ANY CLAIMS OF THE APPLICANT
So, in summary:
Is the CARB Executive Order a good thing: Yes, it is.
Does the CARB Executive Order constitute independent testing that the DV works: No, it does not.
oceans11,
I know that we have not always seen eye-to-eye on this message board, but I do agree with you on this post.
I skimmed through the report (I have not yet had a chance to read it thouroughly), but it certainly appears to me to be the best report I have ever read from the company (and I have been reading their reports for years).
Over the years, we have seen the stock price spike up on much less positive develpments. Granted, some of the stock price moves have come when the share count was much less, so one could expect more resistance to a significant move now than in the past. However, there has been meager buying interest even trying to push the price up. I am a bit surprised by this.
So, as odd as this comment may seem coming from me: Good Post oceans11
(And Alibi, I think your post the other day was also excellent. However, I have complimented your posts several times in the past. Thus my reply to oceans11 and not to yours.)
Alibi95:
Regarding your statement:
solly8,
You stated that you were disappointed that the sale of the 2000 valves were not counted in the second quarter as you expected.
Based on this line from last weeks's news:
The first 2,000 units are essentially only "the tip of the iceberg" comments Savvy Green President Saheed Kottoth. "Many of the initial units are display and demo units that will help drive sales from corporate fleets in projected markets.
I wonder if these DVs are mostly for display and demo units, did we really book much revenue from them?
solly8, I appreciate the info in your posts, but be careful about what you share. I don't believe any info about the 2nd quarter financials (including whether any revenue had been booked in the 2nd quarter from the initial 2000 DV's to Dubai) had been made public yet.
heck of a spread there (0.0035 X 0.0057)
Coolhandluke,
Anyone trying to hold it down did not have to try very hard today.
On Friday, we had a 4 million burst of volume early, then it went the rest of the trading day with no volume.
Today, we got about 100k shares for the whole day.
So, since the initial burst on Monday morning, we have gone essentially 2 full trading days with a total volume of about $400 bucks.
Without any buying volume, one would not need to try very hard to hold it down.
Jay,
I realise that compared to some of the posters that have been here for years, you are a relative newbie this site (at least for this screen name). However, I wanted to let you know that this site does not have a 140 character limit like Twitter. If you would like to use a few extra words (or even a few extra sentences) to enlighten us as to why the future here is so gloomy, feel free to expound away.
Another dynovalve video on Youtube (some of you may have already seen this one).
Wow, what is it about this company that attracts such a bunch of old geezers to invest in it? (sorry guys, lol)
Heck, I'm on the north side of 50 as well, but just barely. Based on the demographics of the posters on this board, I guess that makes me a (relatively) young pup. I kind of like that. Thanks, you old geezers (lol).
Many other penny stocks I have been in seem to attract a bunch of younger investors that don't have a large enough portfolio value to buy a significant amount of higher priced shares, so they are attracted to the ability to get tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of shares for a modest cash outlay, and pray for a multi bagger to bring them to a higher portfolio value.
Seems like we have a different demographic here.
NC Jim,
Regarding your statement:
DFW,
Nope, those were not buys. They were sells. I know this for a fact, because they were me. The vast majority of today's volume (and all of it in the last hour) was me.
I was selling because I was forced to. In addition to my regular brokerage account, I also have a brokerage account as part of my 401k at work. We were told about 2 months ago that this would no longer be an option, and we had to liquidate any positions we had in our brokerage account and transfer the money to the remaining funds. With the chart looking good lately, I tried to hold out as long as possible, but I am running out of time.
I realize that the last several blocks went off at 0.006 when the bid was at 0.0057 and the ask was at 0.006, so they look like buys. But I can assure you that this was part of my sell (I had a limit order at 0.006 before the bid dropped below 0.006, and I still got some partial fills after the bid fell below my limit price.)
I had 2.3 million shares in that account, and I sold a little over 1.9 million of them today. I understand that selling this many in a single day while the volume is so low was a poor trading strategy on my part. I should have sold a little at a time over the past month, but I held on as long as possible because I was optimistic that the price might go higher still.
Anyway, today's selling was not some insider dumping. Rather, it was someone (me) that was forced to sell at this time even though I didn't really want to.
In case it wasn't official before, it is now.
I am officially a dirty old man.
I scrolled through all the pictures in the facebook link, and my favorite ones were the ones that focused on the attractive girls in the green shorts, regardless of whether the car, a dynovalve, or any other item related to the trade show was in the picture.
I should be ashamed of myself.
Wow, what a nice surprise this morning.
With an average price (for me) in the 0.008 range, and us recently dropping to 1/10th of that level, I had essentially written off my investment here as lost, not ever expecting to be in the green again. (My timing was not as good as you guys that are riding freebies here).
What a pleasant feeling to see, with that last trade at 0.0087, I am once again in the green. (Of course I realize that if I tried to sell a few million here, I would not be able to get 0.0087, but still it looks nice to see a green number on the gain/loss column of the screen.)