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Why this is not reported by mass media or at least finance media yet?
Did someone asked the media to hold it silent as long as possible until a settlement is reached? Are they working in a settlement that would avoid the FDIC public shame and discredit and would spread doubts on JPM books?
Will they hide it by wraping this with the other multi$B measures to save the banking system that will be announced on Monday?
I just cannot belive that this lack of wider news for 15 hours is normal.
Txs Sidedraft.. I hope it helps.. cheers.
If any one knows how to post a JPG or PPT file, please send me your email address in a private post and I would send the file to you.
Ok, let's try with this link
http://picasaweb.google.com/amazagx/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCM-kiKvbwpLTlQE&feat=directlink
It's a link to my picasa web album.
I hope it helps.
... we are in spring time .. it was so cold back in December !!
The tool does not allow me to copy/paste and a link does not work since I have to log into my account - and ... precisely today I will not share my passwords..
but I will try to upload a screenshot in some minutes.
Cheers!
I confirm I see it in eTrade news. I have a Power eTrade account and it's there. Issued at 17:35:25. No doubt about it
beyond your boarders too, my friend !!
Apophis... your post is (as usual) well articulated, full of rational arguments and clearly supported with data and links... thanks for sharing with us your enlighting vision.
I want to buy your cristal ball... these omens are really worth to pay for!! How much would you ask for it?
Are you also in the UFOs and GHOSTs business? If you do ... How could we partner with you on these ones?
Please keep teaching us!!
Woops !! good stuff !!
Well done!! jackson227
Commited to pay/Opened Account & Registered my shares...
...
we do need this guys !!
L2 back to normal right now ofter 30 mins very unbalanced...
Ask twice the bid.
Z, are you talking about L2 peculiar situation:
Bid at 35 is 15 times Ask at 36? ... so it would be a carrot for a big holder to try to unload at 35 and then the Bid would suddenly evaporate pushing pps down
Are you talking about BK filings good news?
or .. about WMI finally sueing FDIC?
... or what?
What you mean Z?
WaS, I apologize.
It is clear that something in my post was wrong since the last intention I had was to blame or hit anyone for using the word "liquidation".
The post was not directed to you or to anyone in particular.
The post aim was to share why I think "liquidation" is very far in the radar of options - compared to other options - for WMI's lawyers.
- I shared why I think this is a very speciall BK case and why the BK exit statistics may not apply. I listed a clear set of uniqueness in this case.
- I shared why I think creditors intererest is not to liquidate. Why I think debtors and creditors are aligned here.
- I shared why I think it is good - and not bad - that WMI's lawyers expectation is get out of BK soon.
- And I just listed the posible upsides we all know about.
It seems that somehow my post managed not just to share my thoughts but to pass the message that it's not acceptable to talk about liquidation or any other thing.
I do respect other's opinions, specially if they add information or arguments and are not just bad omens or simplistic aproaches when pps has a bad trend // good omens when pps does well.
From this prespective I do appreciate your posts and your thoughts. Over time you come to comform an opinion about who's posts are worth to read and who's not. And yours are worth.
.. sorry again if I messed in my email showing disrespect to you or anyone else.
Now - and on the other hand - in my opinion it is worth to think about how much the short term evolution of pps - even with with low volume - can influence our perception about a single sentence or a single fact.
There is huge uncertainty about the outcome and we - me, the first one - can just speculate. Having said that and knowing that this is not a "religion" but "just a stock" I keep thinking this is a great opportunty. One that we detect very rarely if ever in life. It's a very unique BK case.
I will do my best to keep an open and cooperative spirit in this board. I am learning a lot.
Cheers!!
Liquidation? .. By no means!!!
WMI's atty sentence
===================
... "pay creditors and end BK in 3 months" .. is GOOD NEWS !!
Would you be happier with "not paying creditors" or "ending BK by 2010"?
Today's pps evolution is influencing the mood of many here while reading the sentence. We all be happier with pps going up instead of down. But let's touch ground ..the volume today in WAMUQ was below $380k..
What matters for those who can wait is not the pps these days... but the relevant issue is the BK evolution as well as WMI options in the triangle Creditors-JPM-FDIC.
WMI Debt and Creditors' original expectation. WMI's a peculiar BK case.
====================================================================
There are 5 uniqueness in this case:
1.- WMI debt is not composed of many diverse items. Creditors are not suppliers of expensive assets ( machinery, real state, data centers, software licensees, commercial inventories, etc ) whose expectation and need is to get paid short term even if it's a %. WMI has 13 employees ... so there are not thoushands of families expecting some cash asap to stay moving or expecting to recover something out of a pension plan.
2.- WMI debt is mainly very long term debt. And most of it is very very long term debt ( up to 2049).
This means two important things:
- the expectation of these creditors was to keep receiving interests as well as to recover their money LONG TERM. If theyy see a plan that allow's this .. then their expectation is fullfilled.
- the creditors cannot force liquidation as long as they keep receiving their payments. And WMI can do so.
3.- WMI is not burning money. Aas holding company WMI does not need to burn monthly money in recurring expenses to just keep opening the door every day. This is also quite unique.
4.- WMI’s assets are not composed of items that are either getting obsolete ( as commercial inventories or intellectual property) or will evaporate if they are not used soon or executed in business as usual mode( as customer contracts/projects, that would produce future incomes OR maintenance/support/services contracts that produce regular income. WMI assets are mainly composed of subsidiaries.
5.- WMI’s key shareholders are concentrated and some own both common and preferred. TPG and a dozed of other groups that can wait have criteria, inside information, strong contacts and long term interests it this. They are strong and they will do whatever they can to avoid commons getting wiped out or extremely diluted by exchanging debt in return of shares.
Those considering statistics of successful/unsuccessful BK cases should bear in mind these 4 uniqueness. Specially the debt structure and cash situation ( the debtor has more that half of the debt up to 2049 in cash today). These two remarkable items help enormously here. Tell me about many other companies - even not in BK - with CASH equivalent to half their debt.
The sentence: "creditors will be paid"
======================================
This is not bad at all for. If the creditors couldn’t be paid then the shareholders much less.
WMI Creditors are aligned with WMI attys because they feel they can be paid. Leaving apart the upsides (below).. let’s just focus in the A/L.
A/L today is basically balanced. How could this evolve?
Assets.
These are valued at their worst possible value. They are either zero, or undetermined or book value, or “mark to market” (MtM). In today’s market conditions MtM and/or book value are likely at their worst. Not to say “undetermined” or zero. For someone with LONG TERM expectations as WMI creditors it just does not make sense pushing WMI to sell off today in a hurry. They can get much more by letting WMI to sell if needed in the next years .. Items valued as MtM and “undetermined” will be worthy in the future. The same for those with “book” value. SO WMI ASSETS VALUATION is more likely to increase than to decrease. Over the years the debtor will be able to keep paying creditors. This fulfills their expectation.
Liabilities.
These are valued at their face value. Part of the BK process means renegotiating the debt in terms of longer term, reducing a % or exchanging other % by ownership ( shares). Although I do not expect much decrease it may happens.
If you are a long term creditor … why force the debtor to pay you just a fraction today when you originally expected to wait and if you wait it’s more likely that you get more.
So the sentence “creditors will be paid” doesn’t necessarily means that they will be paid in cash within months when their original deal was to get paid over many years.
The sentence: “end BK in 3 months”
=================================
This is good news too.
Among other things it means:
- There is a plan
- Creditors are aligned to the plan
- The attys expenses will not last for ever
- A good deal of uncertainty will disappear within months
Ending BK may be interpreted as liquidation with losses. The 4 uniqueness of this BK case ( as reasoned above) opens the door to better solutions for both debtor and creditors.
Other ways or components to exit BK are:
- Renegotiating debt: refinancing longer term, exchanging debt by shares ( may be attractive considering the upsides below)
- Having all assets and liabilities asserted legally by the court, and having creditors aligned to a plan that makes clear that they can keep paying the debt for several years …. Just get out of BK and keep doing business as holding company investing and disinvesting in subsidiaries.
- By negotiating any merge or buyout.
- By liquidation with profit. What? … yes .. if some of the upsides below happen and/or the proper asset valuation brings enough value.. then the parties may agree to liquidate with profit: paying the debts and compensating common and prefereds.
The upsides
============
I will not elaborate the details… this post is long enough and there are better and previous posts in iHub and Yahoo explaining these. Here I just keep them in mind to remind every one about the potential beyond the points above reasoned.
- NOL/Tax recovery – with it’s implications as an attractive buyout as soon as it comes out of BK and the uncertainty gets cleared.
- Compensaton by litigating with FDIC: either FC or contract breach… again even before the end of a litigation it may be an attractive target for the buy out once the litigation started and the uncertainty gets reduced by coming out of BK.
- Settlement to avoid that litigation and it’s public and embarrassing implications.
- Recovering part of the seized assets or the 1.9B as partial result of litigating against FDIC
- Buyout by JPM just to clean it’s books of uncertainty ( the assets exhibit sold is missing !!. it’s unclear what was sold) but these assets were reported in JPM books – very very important these days – as well as to avoid noise around their role during the seizure and takeover.
Liquidation? .. By no means!!!
WMI's atty sentence
===================
... "pay creditors and end BK in 3 months" .. is GOOD NEWS !!
Would you be happier with "not paying creditors" or "ending BK by 2010"?
Today's pps evolution is influencing the mood of many here while reading the sentence. We all be happier with pps going up instead of down. But let's touch ground ..the volume today in WAMUQ was below $380k..
What matters for those who can wait is not the pps these days... but the relevant issue is the BK evolution as well as WMI options in the triangle Creditors-JPM-FDIC.
WMI Debt and Creditors' original expectation. WMI's a peculiar BK case.
====================================================================
There are 5 uniqueness in this case:
1.- WMI debt is not composed of many diverse items. Creditors are not suppliers of expensive assets ( machinery, real state, data centers, software licensees, commercial inventories, etc ) whose expectation and need is to get paid short term even if it's a %. WMI has 13 employees ... so there are not thoushands of families expecting some cash asap to stay moving or expecting to recover something out of a pension plan.
2.- WMI debt is mainly very long term debt. And most of it is very very long term debt ( up to 2049).
This means two important things:
- the expectation of these creditors was to keep receiving interests as well as to recover their money LONG TERM. If theyy see a plan that allow's this .. then their expectation is fullfilled.
- the creditors cannot force liquidation as long as they keep receiving their payments. And WMI can do so.
3.- WMI is not burning money. Aas holding company WMI does not need to burn monthly money in recurring expenses to just keep opening the door every day. This is also quite unique.
4.- WMI’s assets are not composed of items that are either getting obsolete ( as commercial inventories or intellectual property) or will evaporate if they are not used soon or executed in business as usual mode( as customer contracts/projects, that would produce future incomes OR maintenance/support/services contracts that produce regular income. WMI assets are mainly composed of subsidiaries.
5.- WMI’s key shareholders are concentrated and some own both common and preferred. TPG and a dozed of other groups that can wait have criteria, inside information, strong contacts and long term interests it this. They are strong and they will do whatever they can to avoid commons getting wiped out or extremely diluted by exchanging debt in return of shares.
Those considering statistics of successful/unsuccessful BK cases should bear in mind these 4 uniqueness. Specially the debt structure and cash situation ( the debtor has more that half of the debt up to 2049 in cash today). These two remarkable items help enormously here. Tell me about many other companies - even not in BK - with CASH equivalent to half their debt.
The sentence: "creditors will be paid"
======================================
This is not bad at all for. If the creditors couldn’t be paid then the shareholders much less.
WMI Creditors are aligned with WMI attys because they feel they can be paid. Leaving apart the upsides (below).. let’s just focus in the A/L.
A/L today is basically balanced. How could this evolve?
Assets.
These are valued at their worst possible value. They are either zero, or undetermined or book value, or “mark to market” (MtM). In today’s market conditions MtM and/or book value are likely at their worst. Not to say “undetermined” or zero. For someone with LONG TERM expectations as WMI creditors it just does not make sense pushing WMI to sell off today in a hurry. They can get much more by letting WMI to sell if needed in the next years .. Items valued as MtM and “undetermined” will be worthy in the future. The same for those with “book” value. SO WMI ASSETS VALUATION is more likely to increase than to decrease. Over the years the debtor will be able to keep paying creditors. This fulfills their expectation.
Liabilities.
These are valued at their face value. Part of the BK process means renegotiating the debt in terms of longer term, reducing a % or exchanging other % by ownership ( shares). Although I do not expect much decrease it may happens.
If you are a long term creditor … why force the debtor to pay you just a fraction today when you originally expected to wait and if you wait it’s more likely that you get more.
So the sentence “creditors will be paid” doesn’t necessarily means that they will be paid in cash within months when their original deal was to get paid over many years.
The sentence: “end BK in 3 months”
=================================
This is good news too.
Among other things it means:
- There is a plan
- Creditors are aligned to the plan
- The attys expenses will not last for ever
- A good deal of uncertainty will disappear within months
Ending BK may be interpreted as liquidation with losses. The 4 uniqueness of this BK case ( as reasoned above) opens the door to better solutions for both debtor and creditors.
Other ways or components to exit BK are:
- Renegotiating debt: refinancing longer term, exchanging debt by shares ( may be attractive considering the upsides below)
- Having all assets and liabilities asserted legally by the court, and having creditors aligned to a plan that makes clear that they can keep paying the debt for several years …. Just get out of BK and keep doing business as holding company investing and disinvesting in subsidiaries.
- By negotiating any merge or buyout.
- By liquidation with profit. What? … yes .. if some of the upsides below happen and/or the proper asset valuation brings enough value.. then the parties may agree to liquidate with profit: paying the debts and compensating common and prefereds.
The upsides
============
I will not elaborate the details… this post is long enough and there are better and previous posts in iHub and Yahoo explaining these. Here I just keep them in mind to remind every on the potential beyond the points above reasoned.
- NOL/Tax recovery – with it’s implications as an attractive buyout as soon as it comes out of BK and the uncertainty gets cleared.
- Compensaton by litigating with FDIC: either FC or contract breach… again even before the end of a litigation it may be an attractive target for the buy out once the litigation started and the uncertainty gets reduced by coming out of BK.
- Settlement to avoid that litigation and it’s public and embarrassing implications.
- Recovering part of the seized assets or the 1.9B as partial result of litigating against FDIC
- Buyout by JPM just to clean it’s books of uncertainty ( the assets exhibit sold is missing !!. it’s unclear what was sold) but these assets were reported in JPM books – very very important these days – as well as to avoid noise around their role during the seizure and takeover.
My previous post. Mistake in 4th paragraph .. it meant "taxes" instead of "interests".
Sorry about that.
Cheers.
Yes, it is possible.
As a matter of fact that would be the way JPM would buy it to clean the mess he is heading to if they keep in their books as JPM assets and results items that may be litigated.
This days cash is king and by no means JPM would give cash. They would increase capital, issue more shares of JPM - assuming certain dilution - and give these new shares in exchange of WMI shares.
The WMI price negotiation then would be about the number of JPM shares in exchange of the WMI ones.
One good thing of this is that the shareholders can decide when they sell the jPM shares. This means that if we are not in urgency to make cash - and if you belive the JPM have a nice future - you can keep the shares and don't pay interests related to the profit.
Do I think this will happens? The way I see it:
I see two outcomes:
1.- Buyout from JPM. JPM simply cannot keep reporting as their own for ever things that are unclear. This is the cost for them of closing the deal with the FDIC without the assets schedule exhibit.
If it becomes clear for analists and the SEC that the document upon what JPM bought WMI did not include a clear list of what was bought ... this can really be a disaster for them. Besides it and based on Sarban Oxley legislation they are forced to declare any possible contingency in their assets and income ... and remove it from their balance sheet or P/L reports.
2.- WMI sueing FDIC for either FC or ontract breach. This would likely be aligned with recoveing some taxes and getting out of BK in the next months...
If this happens the claim would be billinonary and it would impact positively the pps based on the percived expectation about how strong the WMI case is.
It would mean that the creditors would have accepted that there are more chances for full recovery this way than by trying to force a liquidation - whith current market environment this would force to sell off WMI subsidiaries at a price much worse than waiting for the court cases to mature.
I am staying long ... (as the majority stockholders with inside information are doing)
There is some risk - as anywhere today - but the huge potential reward has simply no match.
Cheers!!
It's JPM the one who may have accounting problems!
They have even recoginized in their own motion that it's unclear what exactly they bought.
In parallel, with the new SAFO filed by WMI, it's clear that now WMI feels free to claim that even pieces WMB assets that JPM is accounted as theirs in their last results - if not the whole WMB - were either improperly seized or not involved in the Purchase Agreement between JPM and FDIC.
The curious thing now is that since both - JPM and WMI - have formally recoginized that WMI and WMB operations were so intermingled that they are almost impossible to split... WMI could eventually claim that even part of what was considered WMI debt could be partially WMB debt (so now JPM debt) .
In summary it's totally unclear what JPM owns - assets and liabilities - and therefore there are potential contingencies on what JPM reported or was planning to report in its results.
According to Sarban Oxley regulations JPM would be forced to report to SEC and Analists these contingencies. So as soon as WMI files motions with claims about liabilities been WMB's and not WMI's and/or about assets been WMI's and not WMB's ... JPM should make this visible as contingencies in it's books.
The same impact of even worse could hit JPM if WMI sues FDIC for FC, for contract breach and/or requests a reversal given the fact that the PA between JPM and FDIC included as sold to JPM items that FDIC was not entitled to sell, therefore making the deal a fraud potentiably reversed if a court decides so.
What it seems is that JPM is counting as its own and operating a business that they, by themselves recognized to the court as very difficult to separate from WMI's state.
This at the end adds up pressure for JPM to get things sorted out or they would need to recognize all these contingences...
They tried to gain time and failed to do so with the judge overuling them.
Regarding to Mark to Market rule ... this was not related to the specific reason of the seizure. FDIC recognized in its own documents that WMI was well capiitalized the day of the seizure. Their only argument was the possiblity of WMB running into liquidity problems. Not at all about dangerous balance ratios impacted by Mark to Market valuations.
Your tries to bash and generate fear are clear. Additonally these tries are not well documented or informed. As usual with the bashers we have seen here around your posts are not arguments but ommens followed by simplistic statements without solid justification.
Today's creditor's meeting & new SOFA
As far as I recall, last week it was communicated that WMI lawyers organized a major meeting today 28th with creditors and key stakeholders. This is just one day before the hearing and one day after WMI free it's hands to pull out the 4.4B from JPM.
Does anyone can confirm or deny about the meeting?
If I am right and this meeting took place this morning .. it means that the atendees agreed to ammend the SOFA.
In my opinion this would mean that WMI lawyers have aligned creditors and major stacke/stockholders to a very precise strategy.
The first step of this strategy would be this new SOFA.
My reading of this new SOFA is that WMI will not go any more for "peanuts" that would somehow improve the A/L equation generiating value for creditors and shareholders ...
but WMI WILL GO FOR ALL...
... I mean the current position is that WMI by now does not accept as a given and without detailed litigation that ANY ASSET OR LIABILITY has been legally seized and transfered to JPM.
If they decided to go this way can only be because they have demostrated to creditors that there are good chances TO CHALLENGE MANY - IF NOT ALL - ELEMENTS OF THE SEIZURE AND TRANSFER.
This may create confusion and eventually delays in court resolution that WOULD BE REALLY PAINFULL FOR JPM.
According to Sarban Oxley rules, JPM could not keep reporting to analists or to the SEC, as assets or revenues in their books those that are or "may be reasonably" challenged by any possible contingency.
If the ownership of many WMB's pieces is formally challenged in a court then JPM is forced to report these contigencies to the SEC and to analists ... this puts JPM in a very difficult position given the current weight of ex-WMB operations in JPM balance sheet and results.
I personally think WMI is planning to warm up the water rapidly and in one way or another JPM and the FDIC just cannot allow it to reach the boiling temperature.
If this strategy has been accepted by creditors it can only be because they have been convinced that it has more chances for them to recover 100% of the face value instead of just a % of it than the previous strategy.
It may take time and many motions and filings ... but I feel pretty happy with WMI not giving up yet any piece of WMB.
52% of WMI shares are owned by half a dozen of large groups that have for sure been informed about what's the plan behind this new SOFA. There haven't been a major sell off after the SOFA has been submited. There have not been any big volume change. L2 looks good and strong in bid from current price down to 0.04. Nothing relevant changed after the new SOFA was issued.
Most of WAHUQ is controlled by groups that must have been again informed about the reasons behind the new SOFA. If we see WAHUQ pps as reference for creditor's mood... it is picking up nicely... it means for me that these groups at least don't see more risk after the new SOFA than before.
I stay long and optimist...
Cheers and thanks for all of your daily thoughfull contributions.
Great post!! ... but I have one question?
why JPM cannot play claiming in both instances? .. at the BK court as well as at the FDIC simultaneously or secuentially
I am not sure that filing something at the BK court about a give asset by default means that you accept that discrepancies about such asset can only be settled by the BK court.
Maybe I miss an important legal concept there.
Anyway thanks a lot for this post and warm cheers!!
Second & Union LLC. ??
1.- Is this a WMI (or WMI Investment Corp) subsidiary or not?
On one side (Bad signal):
* it does not show up in the 19th/12 SOFAs submited, not even listed with undetermided value.
On the other side (good signal):
* It shows up in the original list of subsidiaries (see below)
* It shows up as a "wholly-owned subsidiary of Washington Mutual Inc." in some old documents submited to the SEC long ago (before seizure, when the difference betwenn belonging to WMI or WMB was irrelevant)
2.- Is this important? .. YES, since Second and Union LLC was the real state entity owning many of the buildings and branches where WM operated. Amonng them the HQ. It stroke to me as big surprise that in the SOFAs WMI and WMI Invstment real property assets was ZERO. The reason seems to be that the RS property (all or a goof portion of it) was concentrated in Second and Union LLC. Second and Union LLc would lease/rent the stuff to the other WMI entities. Among them WMB.
Does any one have a clue about what entity owns Second and Union LLC?
Someone in yahoo is speculating with the posibility of WMI not willing to hide at this point of the BK processall its potential value as the reason for not including clearly this in the SOFA, there was so many disclaimers in the SOFA that it would not be too risky.
Other option is that simply this company was a direct subsidiary of WMB and an undirect subsidiary of WMB ( although wholly-owned before the seizure by WMI who owned 100% of WMB ). This would be bad news of us and quite an additional gift for JPM.
----- attachements ----
The Company's primary executive and business segment headquarters are located at 1301 Second Avenue, Seattle, Washington 98101. In March 2006, Second and Union LLC, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Washington Mutual, Inc., in a joint venture with the Seattle Art Museum, completed construction of the Company's headquarters building and was granted an initial certificate of occupancy. At that time, Second and Union LLC took ownership of a condominium interest in the 944,000 square foot office tower and the attached 700 stall parking garage and the Company's employees began to relocate to the new space. Concurrently, the Seattle Art Museum completed and took ownership of 243,000 square feet of future expansion space that Second and Union LLC leased, and the Company's employees will occupy, for a period of up to 25 years. The Seattle Art Museum has the right to cancel the lease, in whole or in part, at any time after the tenth year of the lease. Certain leases covering downtown Seattle locations were not renewed when their terms expired. The Company leases an additional 697,000 square feet in other downtown Seattle locations for administrative functions.
As of December 31, 2007, the Company's owned and leased property in 36 states was comprised of 2,257 retail banking stores, 233 lending stores and centers and 290 administrative and other offices. During 2007, the Company sold three administrative locations in California and Florida totaling 275,000 square feet and leased back 145,000 square feet. Administrative facilities involve the ownership or leasing of approximately 2.6 million square feet in California, 1.1 million square feet in Texas, 825,000 square feet in Florida and 463,000 square feet in Illinois.
http://washingtonmutualinc.secfilings.co...
---------------
WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES
110 East 42nd Operating Company, Inc.
620-622 Pellhamdale Avenue Owners Corporation
Accord Realty Management Corporation
ACD2
ACD3
ACD4
Ahmanson Developments, Inc.
Ahmanson GGC LLC
Ahmanson Insurance, Inc.
Ahmanson Land Company
Ahmanson Marketing, Inc.
Ahmanson Obligation Company
Ahmanson Residential 2
Ahmanson Residential Development
Bryant Financial Corporation
California Reconveyance Company
CCB Capital Trust IV
CCB Capital Trust IX
CCB Capital Trust V
CCB Capital Trust VI
CCB Capital Trust VII
CCB Capital Trust VIII
Clayton Blackbear, Inc.
Commercial Loan Partners L.P.
CRP Properties, Inc.
Dime Capital Partners, Inc.
Dime Commercial Corp.
Dime CRE, Inc.
Dime Mortgage of New Jersey, Inc.
ECP Properties, Inc.
The E-F Battery Accord Corporation
F.C. LTD.
FA California Aircraft Holding Corporation
FA Out-of-State Holdings, Inc.
Flower Street Corporation
Great Western FS Corporation
Great Western Service Corporation Two
H.F. Ahmanson & Company
H.S. Loan Corporation
Harmony Agency, Inc.
HCP Properties Holdings, Inc.
HCP Properties, Inc.
HFC Capital Trust I
HHP Investment, LLC
HMP Properties, Inc.
Home Crest Insurance Services, Inc.
HS Loan Partners LLC
Irvine Corporate Center, Inc.
Ladue Service Corporation
Long Beach Securities Corp.
Marion Insurance Company, Inc.
Marion Street, Inc.
Mid Country Inc.
Murphy Favre Housing Managers, Inc.
Murphy Favre Properties, Inc.
NAMCO Securities Corp.
Nickel Purchasing Company, Inc.
Norstar Mortgage Corp.
North Properties, Inc.
Pacific Centre Associates LLC
Pacoima Investment Fund LLC
PCA Asset Holdings LLC
Pike Street Holdings, Inc.
Plainview Inn, Inc.
Providian Bancorp Services
Providian Leasing Corporation
Providian Mauritius Investments LTD
Providian Services Corporation
Providian Services LLC
Providian Technology Services Private Limited
Reverse Exchange Corporation
Rivergrade Investment Corp.
Riverpoint Associates
Robena Feedstock LLC
Robena LLC
Savings of America, Inc.
Seafair Securities Holdings Corp.
Second and Union LLC
Seneca Funding (UK) Limited
Seneca Funding LLC
Seneca Funding Management LLC
Seneca Funding Trust
Seneca Holdings, Inc.
Seneca Newco LLC
Seneca Street, Inc.
Sivage Financial Services LLC
Snohomish Asset Holdings LLC
SoundBay Leasing LLC
Stockton Plaza, Incorporated
Strand Capital LLC
Sutter Bay Associates LLC
Sutter Bay Corporation
Thackeray Funding Corp.
Thackeray Funding Partners
Thackeray Holdings Corp.
University Street, Inc.
WaMu 1031 Exchange
WaMu Asset Acceptance Corp.
WaMu Capital Corp.
WaMu Insurance Services, Inc.
WaMu Investments, Inc.
Washington Mutual Asset Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Bank
Washington Mutual Bank fsb
Washington Mutual Brokerage Holdings, Inc.
Washington Mutual Capital Trust 2001
Washington Mutual Community Development, Inc.
Washington Mutual Finance Group LLC
Washington Mutual Life Insurance Company of California, a Stock
Insurer
Washington Mutual Mortgage Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding LLC
Washington Mutual Trade Service Limited
Washington Mutual-Seattle Art Museum Project Owners Association
Western Service Co.
WM Aircraft Holdings LLC
WM Asset Holdings Corp.
WM Citation Holdings, LLC
WM Enterprises & Holdings, Inc.
WM Funds Disbursements, Inc.
WM Marion Holdings LLC
WM Mortgage Reinsurance Company, Inc.
WM Specialty Mortgage LLC
WM Winslow Funding LLC
WMB St. Helens LLC
WMBFA Insurance Agency, Inc.
WMFS Insurance Services, Inc.
WMGW Delaware Holdings LLC
WMHFA Delaware Holdings LLC
WMI Investment Corp.
WMI Rainier LLC
WMICC Delaware Holdings LLC
WMRP Delaware Holdings LLC
Yellowstone Venture, Inc.
WAMUQ: WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES ...
Chapter 11 Filing said they had $32Bil
in Assets and this looks good to me ...
WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES
110 East 42nd Operating Company, Inc.
620-622 Pellhamdale Avenue Owners Corporation
Accord Realty Management Corporation
ACD2
ACD3
ACD4
Ahmanson Developments, Inc.
Ahmanson GGC LLC
Ahmanson Insurance, Inc.
Ahmanson Land Company
Ahmanson Marketing, Inc.
Ahmanson Obligation Company
Ahmanson Residential 2
Ahmanson Residential Development
Bryant Financial Corporation
California Reconveyance Company
CCB Capital Trust IV
CCB Capital Trust IX
CCB Capital Trust V
CCB Capital Trust VI
CCB Capital Trust VII
CCB Capital Trust VIII
Clayton Blackbear, Inc.
Commercial Loan Partners L.P.
CRP Properties, Inc.
Dime Capital Partners, Inc.
Dime Commercial Corp.
Dime CRE, Inc.
Dime Mortgage of New Jersey, Inc.
ECP Properties, Inc.
The E-F Battery Accord Corporation
F.C. LTD.
FA California Aircraft Holding Corporation
FA Out-of-State Holdings, Inc.
Flower Street Corporation
Great Western FS Corporation
Great Western Service Corporation Two
H.F. Ahmanson & Company
H.S. Loan Corporation
Harmony Agency, Inc.
HCP Properties Holdings, Inc.
HCP Properties, Inc.
HFC Capital Trust I
HHP Investment, LLC
HMP Properties, Inc.
Home Crest Insurance Services, Inc.
HS Loan Partners LLC
Irvine Corporate Center, Inc.
Ladue Service Corporation
Long Beach Securities Corp.
Marion Insurance Company, Inc.
Marion Street, Inc.
Mid Country Inc.
Murphy Favre Housing Managers, Inc.
Murphy Favre Properties, Inc.
NAMCO Securities Corp.
Nickel Purchasing Company, Inc.
Norstar Mortgage Corp.
North Properties, Inc.
Pacific Centre Associates LLC
Pacoima Investment Fund LLC
PCA Asset Holdings LLC
Pike Street Holdings, Inc.
Plainview Inn, Inc.
Providian Bancorp Services
Providian Leasing Corporation
Providian Mauritius Investments LTD
Providian Services Corporation
Providian Services LLC
Providian Technology Services Private Limited
Reverse Exchange Corporation
Rivergrade Investment Corp.
Riverpoint Associates
Robena Feedstock LLC
Robena LLC
Savings of America, Inc.
Seafair Securities Holdings Corp.
Second and Union LLC
Seneca Funding (UK) Limited
Seneca Funding LLC
Seneca Funding Management LLC
Seneca Funding Trust
Seneca Holdings, Inc.
Seneca Newco LLC
Seneca Street, Inc.
Sivage Financial Services LLC
Snohomish Asset Holdings LLC
SoundBay Leasing LLC
Stockton Plaza, Incorporated
Strand Capital LLC
Sutter Bay Associates LLC
Sutter Bay Corporation
Thackeray Funding Corp.
Thackeray Funding Partners
Thackeray Holdings Corp.
University Street, Inc.
WaMu 1031 Exchange
WaMu Asset Acceptance Corp.
WaMu Capital Corp.
WaMu Insurance Services, Inc.
WaMu Investments, Inc.
Washington Mutual Asset Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Bank
Washington Mutual Bank fsb
Washington Mutual Brokerage Holdings, Inc.
Washington Mutual Capital Trust 2001
Washington Mutual Community Development, Inc.
Washington Mutual Finance Group LLC
Washington Mutual Life Insurance Company of California, a Stock
Insurer
Washington Mutual Mortgage Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding LLC
Washington Mutual Trade Service Limited
Washington Mutual-Seattle Art Museum Project Owners Association
Western Service Co.
WM Aircraft Holdings LLC
WM Asset Holdings Corp.
WM Citation Holdings, LLC
WM Enterprises & Holdings, Inc.
WM Funds Disbursements, Inc.
WM Marion Holdings LLC
WM Mortgage Reinsurance Company, Inc.
WM Specialty Mortgage LLC
WM Winslow Funding LLC
WMB St. Helens LLC
WMBFA Insurance Agency, Inc.
WMFS Insurance Services, Inc.
WMGW Delaware Holdings LLC
WMHFA Delaware Holdings LLC
WMI Investment Corp.
WMI Rainier LLC
WMICC Delaware Holdings LLC
WMRP Delaware Holdings LLC
Yellowstone Venture, Inc.
You did right...
that email address may get burned now...
I hope people has common sense and they cut the thread asap.
GOOD STUFF!!!! ...
....
whatever the reason but it's the stronger bid - and a very smart bid, by the way - I have seen since the rally days.
on the other hand the ask is lousy and parked at 445 when it could have moved up at least half an hour ago.. and probably increasing the chances to close the orders ...
I hope this bid does not get dry before EOD..
Very strange trading for an hour...
Millions of shares loaded a the Bid 44 whis remains strong and almost zero at the ask 445 .. whith very small spread !!!
... for such a long time and with narrow spread is damm strange.
bid at 44 is ten times ask at 445 !!
the first time I see this in days.
But they can play this game legally within the spread. .. or getting knowledge of a fresh big block order they could change the position before closing the block order to their benefit ( that means changing the spread for a while until the big block is closed) .. but they just CANNOT DO IT jumping beyond the spread and bypassing orders with priority ...
I doubt it could happen in normal market - not pink - with higher level of regulators monitoring...
Fat finger the one placing the orders,
but wrongdoing the entity closing the order at higher price than millions of shares with lower ask prices to the benefit of someone who sold 25% above market price bypassing others who had priority and damaging the fatfinger one..... this is wrong !!! ... if I would be the one selling I would formally complain to my broker copying the SEC. If I would have had sell orders at cheaper price I would also complain.
What's up with these two orders at 0.055?
If I would have an ask below that level, and my orders would not be filled I would be in rage!!
Does anyone have any explanation?
hotmeat, ..Ok, I've checked in the web for just some minutes about her.
She seems to be specialized in BK or court topics related to business.
Her email is: peg.brickley@dowjones.com
... I will think about what you suggested for a while before taking any step... .. my initial thoughts are:
- She must be informed that the one contacting her has interest in the topic as shareholder. Anyway she may guess it but it's better and safer to make it clear from the begining.
- Since - at least me - we are not real insiders ..the value of the info would be helpfull for her "to save her searching time" and make it easy for her get a picture that triggers her interest to undertake her own search/interviews/calls. It's not really that we can provide any exclusive info... but all this is in these boards as the result of cooperative search. It's the result of her own personal findings what will be really powerfull and helpful. But we need to get her up to speed and intereseted in taking action.
From this point of view I would suggest:
- Facts; pieces of documents about the seizure, about the FDIC statements, about the key balance sheet parameters and ratios compared with other banks, about the FDCI and OTS regulation and internal processes and goals. .. Most of it public info but we could save her weeks of search directing her to key paragraphs of key documents, names of people - senators or officers who have been contacted and informed, .. etc
- Links to the most thoughtfull posts. Although these ones mostly give opinions (not facts) about scenearios, they could give her a snapshot of alternative realities. She must be aware that a post is not a proof of anything but reading 5 or 10 post out of hundreds of the last months could save her a hell of time and trigger her interest.
- Links to some videos and/or webpages like wamurape and/or iBox could help but... these may sound too biassed.
MY DOUBTS:
- Should she be contacted by "a person" or by a "colective entity" that represent a number of investores?
- Would not an initiative like this one interfere in timming and contents with a possibly well planned press/image plan designed by WMI legal team or WMI press team?
- If we go ahead... should we focus just in a journalist to make it easy for him/her to get up to speed faster that his/her colleages in other media ( so he/she gets really interested) .... or should we build up a list of 10 to 20 specilized journalists in key finance media and mail them with new selected inputs once a week?
... In any case this sort of initiative requires quiet thinking ... and maturing the idea for a while. Specially some kind of coordination with the WMI management/representatives...
... again .. just my very draft thinking
Yes, definitively ...and WMI can still sue FDIC before the new plan period is finished.
Cheers
Z, You are plain righ, I am plain wrong .. and it's clear that the source of Reuters is the doc ( which is effectively in Pacer) ..and not just a call with an atty.
So we do not have a plan yet. .. but at least we are in the wires and some journalists can follow the path..... which is good.
Sorry for the mistake.
Cheers!
Except that WMI did not request the extension about the plan yet!!
There is not such a court doc filed!!
For me this is not a big issue, ... we are finally in the wires and that's what matters most now.
... and by the way, as far as I know WMI can still do both: present a plan or ask for extension... whatever they had already decided that suits our cause better..
... but we are already in the wires!!
... by the way ... it's pretty hard for JPM reading in reuters that's unclear what exactly they bought while buying WMI ... according to Sarban-Oxley rules .. they have to record in their books the worst possible case .. is this what they did last week?... open door for analists questioning and more visibility...
Z, I think the reporter is right. He doesn't mention as source any motion. He mentions "WM's attorneys" as the source.
Besides this, I checked in detail the motion about "lease contracts" filed on 20th, and it does not blame FDIC as the source of delays or problems. It's just a generic statement that WMI has difficultities to find all documents - among them the ones related to the "lease contracts".
My conclusion is that his source is not a court document.
WMI has not formaly requested an extension of the exlusivity period yet (filing a motion in the court) .
But they have leaked to this journalist that they are having problems to build up a plan because of the FDIC ...
IT'S THE JOURNALIST VERSION OF WHAT THEY LEAKED TO HIM WHAT WE READ. It's not WMI's statement.
We still do not know formally if WMI will request extension of exclusivity (my bet) or will present a plan.
I am sure that if they present a plan, such a plan will count - among many other things - as a fact the ownership of the 4.4B, the rights to certain % of tax return as well as an eventual future litigation against FDIC.
What they have leaked to the press is that FDIC is becoming THE PROBLEM for their restructuring ..
the journalist and his readers will know that ..
..if they present a plan, this plan is likely to be contested by FDIC ... and will likely be hostile to the FDIC
and if they ask for an extension ...
.. it's because FDIC is making it impossible to build up a plan.
WHAT I REALLY LIKE HERE:
-- my experience is that once you leake an extreme of the string to a journalist, he will keep pulling from it ( the original source ) as well as will look for more diverse sources ..
we have now a journalist in a major financial paper smelling news ... it should not be difficult for WMI's attorneys or from these posters to keep feeding him with some facts that make up good reading ....
... FDIC statement about WMI well capitalized before seizure
... FDIC accepting only one bider in hours
... FDIC closing the deal days before the bailout voting
... FDIC not communicating in due time and in writing to WM management the risk of seizure, but discussing it with 3rd parties in the back
... FDIC statutory and literally written responsability to maximize the return to the previous owner once the seizure has been executed and the deposits granted ( facilitating diverse bids, etc, etc )
... the whole story we all know about can help this journalist to pull a string with a good set of regular readings...
SOMEHOW IT'S THE FIRST TIME THE SILENCE IS BROKEN... AND THIS IS SIGNIFICANTLY NEW.
The exclusivity topic:
In a BK process there is a period of time in which the debtor is the only one with the right to present to the BK court a restructuring plan. No other party - creditors, etc - are authorized to present a restructuring plan. This is an EXCLUISVE RIGHT OF THE DEBTOR.
In principle it's a very important right since it set up the agenda in the court for the critical negotiation over the future months. WMI - as debtor in this case - has not filed a motion with its plan.
This period ends next Saturday 24th.
Apparently there are 3 options:
1.- That they present the plan in the next days.
2.- That they file a motion to extend the exclusivity period.
3.- That they consider that they do not need this right because there is a settlement that satisfies everyone.
Here comes the speculation I have gathered in several boards:
Option 2.
It looks like option 2 is the most likely and the most "business as usual" option. Clearly this is a very complex case and we all know - the judge too - that WMI legal team did not have access to the key documents and records until very recently. Therefore it's a credible and sound scenario that building up a good restructuring plan would require a longer period and this would be accepted and approved by the judge. However the specialists in these boards interpret that WMI lawyers would have filed this motion at least one week ago, just to grant that if this was either contested or rejected there would be time to rewrite it and file it again. Expert's opinion points that it's neither professional nore wise to wait until the last days to file a motion asking to extend this period. So their conclusion is that WMI lawyers will not request this extension
Option 1 and or 3.
This course of thinking assumes that there are negotiations among the parties to either:
Option 1: settle a pre-agreed restructuring plan that would be filed this week with most parties already aligned. Most think this plan includes certain concesions of bond holders to receive a % of the face value, as well as a plan to sue FDIC, recover taxes and over time find a buyer that could properly value NOLs as well as the potential profit from the litigation.
or
Option 3. settle a pre-agreed compensation from the FDIC ( in this case FDIC would be involved these days in the negotiation) to WMI that would save the embarrasment of FDIC being exposed in a public, long, ashaming and notorious court case and at the same time would satisfy the rest of parties.
I hope this helps. Please, consider this as my own understanding of the situation. I may be wrong, but at least I think this explain why the expectations of news for this week are so high.
Cheers.
(hotmeat, ..sorry for answering so late, but due to time difference I was sleeping while you asked the question)
We have to touch ground and get ready for long holding....
I am with WaS as well as other posters whose position is not pesimistic or similar ... it's just that life is about expectations and setting them too high in terms of assuring that everything will be settled in some days is risky...
Too high expectations can generate bad decisions based on despair...
By today I am more confident than ever that this is one opportunity in a lifetime, that there are almost zero possibilities of commons getting wiped out, etc .. etc..
- The FDIC is is the hook
- the cash is there
- A/L was ok even with so many assets counting as zero (undeterminded value)
- the NOL is going to be worth some $B ( more or less but some)
- the long term bondholders have good reasons in today's market to accept a % of face value ( only this factor would unbalance in our favor the A/L)
- WMI has cash to support long term litigation and to wait and sell its assets in due time when the value is what they are worth
- The Big Holders are still there and holding not just prefereds but also tons of commons
... but all this may require time to mature ... we are protected under BK with a judge that knows what she does, with good lawyers, a new administration, etc.....
....... again ...all this will take time to mature and produce results...
In the mean time at current pps the company value is just ridiculous ( about $60M aprox.) compared with what is at stake ...
All these aspects are positive from my point of view and reinforce my idea that this is a great investment opportunity ... over time.
.... AND NOW, AS EXCELLENT ADDITIONAL AND VERY LIKELY POSITIVE NEWS ... it seems that the delay to confirm the exclusivity in the court LOOKS LIKE A CLEAR SIGN THAT THERE IS SETTLEMENT AGREED AND THAT THIS WILL BE COMUNICATED IN A FEW DAYS ....
.... this is great!!, this is perfectly articulated by bopfan and many of you, .... and nowbody would be happier than me if you are right ...
... but if not, if for whatever the reason WMI asks for further extension of exclusivity or if any other apparent bump in the road shows up these days ... THE BASICS ARGUMENTS WILL STILL BE THERE AND WILL NOT CHANGE
... so I would rather keep my expectations as positive as always but also assuming that this is a long position ...
I will avoid eventual frustrations and wrong decision making out of unfounded despair ... and if everything gets bright in just some days ... I will be even more delighted...
... dicovering that you can fly when you are on the ground is great ... discovering that you cannot fly once you are in the air is pretty tough...!! ...
Zardiw, 4.4B not in 29Th agenda? ...why you keep saying that the 4.4B will not be covered on 29th?
Since 2008/12/29th ( second amended notice of agenda ....)
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081229000000000014.pdf .. page 7 4th paragraph...
"STATUS: The hearing on this matter is continued to the omnibus hearing scheduled for Jan 29, 2008" . (by the way, this is a mistake!! .. they typed 2008 instead of 2009).
Since then I have not seen any document delaying it anymore ... maybe I missed something ... or maybe you know it from other source ...
... having said that ... it would not be a surprise if they delay it again .. specially if it's already generating interests ..
Conclusion: unless I am blind about something .. the 4.4B topic is still in the 29th agenda. Am I wrong?
We will witness how these two rules apply for WMI..