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Rodrth, all excellent points and it sounds like you have much more experience in waste heat then I do.
I did think about waste heat from the motor, shaft, bearings, etc. but to take the heat from the chamber and add it to the cyclone would indeed be a double whammy.
You aren't by any chance building a KDS in your basement, are you?
rodrth,
"...it would seem to be an advantage for water removal for the cyclone to be maintained at a temperature matching the chamber"
That's how I see it too. IMO the last thing they want is for the cyclone to be cooler. Heating it should help, but I don't know what the break-even point would be. I expect that they will run trials to see if the effort is worth the benefits. I guess that waste heat would be the answer.
TR, you are very welcome.
I'm just happy to contribute to this positive exchange of ideas, and hopefully emphasise the great potential of this machine.
But I too, would prefer to talk about closed deals.
rodrth,
I think the cooling/heating issue has been looked at. If you watch the video from AP you can see some insulation around the KDS and cyclone, which I believe was part of that exact test.
I'm not sure about the heat exchanger, although diverting the heat from the KDS chamber to the cyclone should help performance IMO.
Almost... cooler chamber means cooler atmosphere (air) inside the chamber. Now since cooler air holds less moisture then warm air, then less moisture can exist as gas in the chamber and more must remain as water droplets. Remember that it is the vaporization (conversion of the moisture from liquid to gas) that requires most of the energy. Dropping the chamber temperature would convert the vapour back to liquid releasing the energy back into the KDS. So by keeping the temperature of the KDS lower, there is less moisture in the gas phase and therefore the KDS should use less energy.
Furthermore, if the KDS chamber temperature increases and is now hotter then the cyclone, then we would expect to see water precipitating in the cyclone (kind of like clouds form rain when they hit cooler air around them). So I expect that as a result, the precipitated water would show up in the product...hence wetter product with higher chamber temperature.
Also remember that the KDS doesn't "dry" in the traditional sense of the word. It separates water from solid without using heat. I believe FASC/AGES refer to this as 'mechanical dewatering' instead of 'drying'
Vaporization and condensation are fairly well known concepts, I guess it just hasn't been applied to a blender before
OK, hint: Hotter air holds more moisture...
BINGO rodrth...we have a winner..."less than the latent heat of water..." and that is THE thing that makes the KDS so great.
Why?... because it is 4 times more efficient at water removal then a typical drier.
How?... because most of the water doesn't have to be vaporized (which is what requires the tremendous amount of energy in a drier). In the KDS the water is just mechanically separated from the solid without turning into steam... and that is the key. Less steam = less energy.
Bonus question: Based on the above, what happens as the KDS temperature goes up (or down)?
Happy 4th of July to all those in land of the free and the home of the brave.
Happy Birthday America!!!
LOL.... eom
OT: Just a quick "HAPPY CANADA DAY!" to all my fellow country men.
TR, government offices should be open tomorrow, but otherwise I think that many, if not most, will take a long weekend.
All the best...I4C a long weekend
beischens...
Just a quick note on the operation of the KDS... Technically it is not batch because there needs to be a smooth stream of feed material entering the machine. The material can not be simply loaded into the chamber ahead of time and then switched on. Having said that, it can be made into a batch process by having an entry hopper which is loaded ahead of time and slowly emptied into the KDS. Once the feed hopper is empty then the "batch" would be done.
I don't know if that helps, but there it is...
Tech, no I haven’t but...
...somehow I think that they keep an eye on what happens on these boards (even if they don't want to admit to it
"California Utility Seeks Renewable Energy Partners "
Seems like it should be an oportunity for FASC/AGES...
http://www.solaraccess.com/news/story?storyid=6945
"Sacramento, California - June 17, 2004 [SolarAccess.com] The Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD) is in the market for new sources of renewable energy, so the utility is inviting potential suppliers of renewable electricity to add their names to SMUD's solicitation e-mail list.
Names on the list soon will receive a Request for Offer (RFO). The RFOs will help SMUD identify potential renewable energy projects to help meet its Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) goals and Greenergy program requirements.
SMUD's RPS goal is to have 10 percent of its electricity needs met with renewable resources by 2006 and 20 percent by 2011. The utility's green pricing program, Greenergy, gives residential and commercial customers the option to pay a monthly premium to ensure that selected amounts of renewable power are purchased on their behalf. Current estimates for these two programs indicate that SMUD will need approximately 2,250 gigawatt-hours (GWh) a year by the end of 2011.
SMUD has used a specific structure for the RFO to attract emerging renewable technology developers to submit offers to supply portions of the needed energy. SMUD will evaluate proposals in two categories: conventional renewables such as wind, small hydro, geothermal and direct combustion biomass projects, and emerging renewables such as solar thermal with gas assist and biomass gasification.
Renewable electric energy providers and project developers can place their names on SMUD's e-mail list by registering their company at SMUD's Electronic Bid Solicitation System (EBSS) Web site, in the Category of "Renewable Power". Applicants should also register the company name in one or more of the following Renewable Power subcategories: Photovoltaic, Solar Thermal, Biomass, Small Hydro, Wind, Geothermal, Biodiesel, Digester Gas, Fuel Cells, Landfill Gas, MSW Conversion, Tidal Current, Ocean Wave, Ocean Thermal, and other. See the link below for more details."
TR,
you have mail.
Sambeaux, let's hope that FASC (and AGES) are as well known one day as Boeing. You could tell your grandkids you were there when it all started...
TR,
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner, but when IHUB died on me last night I just gave up for the night.
1) The moisture content of the product can basically be anything you want. It could be 30% if that is what the client wanted or 8% (ie. 92% solid). I believe the lowest they reached was 4.7 % water in the product (from the AP report). It is simply a function of how wet the feed is, and the production rate. As with most things, there is a trade off: higher production rate = higher moisture content in product. The stated numbers I think are mostly to give a realistic range. The low moisture content is crucial for pneumatic conveying of the dry product. Everything plugs up if it is too wet.
2) The ideal thing would be to get the fiber out of the sludge and reuse it, but to the best of my knowledge, the paper industry has never been able to make paper from waste sludge. I believe that AGES is now getting close to being able to do that, because the dry product can be separated into paper fiber and those other components mentioned in the video.
3) You are absolutely right about that. I have seen the interest in this system first-hand at the EXFOR show. But as you say, it must be difficult to change such a large industry in just a couple of years. It does seem like things are getting very close though. IMO, AGES needs to demonstrate the KDS6000 to start the “sludge” revolution (a little stricter regulations on dumping the stuff wouldn’t hurt either). To give a loose analogy; would you spent $5,000,000 on a jet for your company if all I showed you was a Cassna and told you that if you give me an order then I will build you a jet? (Remember that I have never done it before and jets don’t yet exist). Tough sell in my opinion, however, seeing is believing.
So I keep waiting… If KDS6000 doesn’t sell though…well then that will definitely tell me something else (IMO).
I really can't say that I blame you for feeling that way. I think everyone expected more, a lot more, by now.
I guess the question is: Is all this for real or is it a scam? I, for one, believe that it is for real and just a matter of time for both FASC and AGES...
How long can you hold you breath, Tech?
Tech, maybe AP are finally getting the long awaited squeeeeeeze...
http://www.safewatergroup.org/whats_new/residents_irate.htm
http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/media/item.shtml?x=422
TR... yes indeed it is there now.
What is your take on it? Our input/comments surely will get back to AGES…
Nice find TR...and to others, great input.
This is becoming a board really worth reading (unlike the other place).
All the best.
PS. AGES is finally planning to post that updated and long overdue video on their web site in the next few days.
You are welcome TR/10Z. eom
Hi Tech…
it is not so much that burning biomass is cleaner, it is just that no new components are being added to our environment. The wood chips, for example, would decompose eventually anyway, and enter the environment. Using fossil fuels is different because it releases chemicals that were “stored” and not part of our air and water until they were released through burning. They add to our existing pollution. Components of biomass just keep “recycling” kind of like the famous water cycle. That is what the Nature in Balance brochure is showing.
I fact, I think that there is something called “negative emissions” where we are in effect reducing the amount of pollution because we are “recycling” biomass and not releasing the pollution stored in fossil fuels.
As stated on this page...
http://europa.eu.int/comm/energy_transport/atlas/htmlu/biohenv.html
"The combustion of biomass does not produce more CO2 than the plants take out of the atmosphere during growing. The increased use of biomass for heat (CHP) production would help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions"
Having said that, I agree with you that some numbers would be nice to have.
Take care...
TR, the "expected" numbers seem to be as follows:
Prim/Sec Sludge = 4000 lb/hr
De-inking Sludge = 6000 lb/hr
Wood / hog / etc = 8000 lb/hr
These numbers, however, only tell half the story. This is because these numbers are highly dependent on moisture content of the feed material. For example, sludge which is 75% moisture going in, cannot be processed at the same rate as sludge which is 40% moisture. Also, if the desired output moisture content is 25%, then the material can be processed faster then if the desired output moisture content is 10%. I believe that the above numbers assume 50% moisture content going in and about 10-15% coming out. So a better way to look at this is, how much (maximum) water will the KDS be able to remove per hour. This should give a better common denominator.
Using de-inking sludge for example:
INPUT: 50% moisture means that out of 6000 lb/hr, 3000 lb = solid waste and 3000 lb = water.
OUTPUT: 10% moisture remaining means we still have 3000 lb of solid waste plus water which is now 10% of the total output mass (ie. 3000lb solid=90% and X lb water=10%). So we have 333 lb of water left in the product (3333 lb in total)
RESULT: 3000 lb - 333 lb= 2667 lb of water have been removed, or about 89% of the original water in the product. This number should be more consistent (and impressive) and give a better idea of the expected production rates... Or at least so I understand
Is that as clear as mud???
megster, how can a machine 3 times the size of the old KDS cost less???
The cyclone on the new KDS looks like it would cost at least $50,000. Add to that the scrubber, KDS chamber, ducting, drives, motors, steelwork (which can cost about $2-$3/lb to fabricate) and the sophisticated PLC safety and control system.
This also doesn't include the engineering/design work that must go into the first unit and typically costs $75 to $150/hr per engineer, and about $30 to $50/hr for draftsmen. We can easily assume that such a design will take a few weeks to design and draw up. So the KDS6000 design alone will probably cost $25,000 to $50,000 alone!
Yes, TR...
That would certainly cover it. What's more is that the cost of KDS6000 development can be split with AGES. They are, after all, working on it too.
And thank you for the complement. I appreciate your relentless DD which you share with the board.
All the best...
KDS 6000 cost...
It will be probably about 1/2 million $$$ each.
Add to that "first-unit" trials, changes, etc, and who knows how much it will cost. It will not be cheap though! IMO.
Tech, sorry for the delay in my answer.
(I don't get to check the boards as often as I used to)
AGES has focused on mainly two areas: sludge and wood. That's it for now. They are working VERY hard at getting a working system in one of thse applications. That is the #1 priority for them. Once that is accomplished then there will be room, $$$, and time to look at other things.
tech, it is possible that in the future the discussion may resume. I don't know where thing will go. But that goes for any company. I just know that AGES is not, and has not, been working on Honeywell.
Regards...
ptrey,
AGES is not now and never has pursued the Honeywell deal.
So it is definitely dead if it has been transferred to AGES.
IMO that announcement was made just to keep the investors happy and hoping.
I would think that the financing is already pretty secure. I can't see FASC making a PR about a sale that could still fall through. Not now. Not when they are digging themselves out of the credibility abyss that they plunged into with "deals" like the Czech Rep., Ireland, Honeywell, etc...
Nevertheless, I think that we will hear more about it. Maybe at delivery time, or when payment is received.
Jagman,
I am not sure about the Ireland unit. Maybe others have more info on that.
As far as improvements go, they could incorporate things like more durable bars, more safety controls, maybe a unique classifier better suited for this material, but IMO it will not be anything major like a redesign. This is because the new and improved KDS has not been build yet and probably will not be for a few more months. Then again, when is the delivery of this unit??? Maybe the KDS6000 will be ready in time.
Personally I am shocked that they sold a unit to Poland. This is a very expensive item for the east Europeans (I tried doing business there before). I hope they don’t just rip off the KDS design
NEWS of a sale...
As found by 2Jugglers...
http://www.canadanewswire.com/en/releases/archive/April2004/29/c6731.html
First American Scientific Corp (FASC:OTCBB) announces sale of KDS Micronex
equipment to Firma Codogni in Poland
VANCOUVER, April 29 /CNW/ - David Dungate, M.Eng., Vice President of
Sales & Marketing of First American Scientific Corp. (FASC) is pleased to
announce the sale of a KDS Micronex System to Firma Codogni Spolka Jawna of
Poland which will be used for the processing of chromite in the leather
tanning industry.
Firma Codogni, located in Staloa Wola, southeast Poland has been
supplying grinding and milling equipment in Eastern Europe for over 15 years.
The KDS equipment was chosen for this application based on its superior
ability to simultaneously pulverize and remove moisture from the host material
without the requirement for supplemental heat. Testing has also shown that
lower temperatures and negative air pressure in the processing chamber have
made it easier to control emissions compared to competitor's machines for this
application.
Project financing will be provided by Northstar Trade Finance Inc., a
Canadian lender who provides funding in support of Canadian exports "provided
they meet Northstar's requirements for export performance coupled with a
credit worthy foreign buyer who is insurable by Export Development Canada."
According to MGM Engineering International Inc, FASC's representative in
Poland, "We expect this first sale to significantly enhance our marketing
efforts in Eastern Europe. The installation at Firma Codogni will clearly
demonstrate the KDS Micronex capabilities and solidify our negotiations with
several other prospective purchasers in the region".
"This sale represents the first of many that we expect to finalize in the
region" stated Cal Kantonen, Chairman of FASC, "With patent protection already
in place in the EEC, we can move quickly to other parts of Europe where there
is a recognized need for our technology. Poland, Hungary, and the Czech
Republic, along with seven other eastern block countries, are scheduled to
join the European Union on May 1, 2004."
First American Scientific Corp. develops, manufacturers and sells the KDS
Micronex system, a patented disintegration system capable of reducing many
types of material to a fine dry powder suitable for this and many other
industrial purposes. Other "waste-to-resources" processes where the KDS
Micronex can capture significant value include the drying and micronizing of
biomass, agri-waste, and pulp sludges suitable for burning in specialized dust
burning systems.
Please see our web sites for additional details: www.fasc.net or
www.ages-biomass.com
Certain information and statements included in this release constitute
forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Federal Private
Securities Litigation Reform Act.
ON BEHALF OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
C. Kantonen, Chairman
Thank you LogMan. eom.
Can anyone see what the resistance is like at $ 0.10 ?
TIA.
EquitiLink report continued...
The second page has a lot of text boxes, charts, and graph so it doesn't convert from PDF very well.
Here is the little bit that I managed to extract:
-------------------------------------------------3 months ended --------3 months ended ------------12 months ended
Selected Financial Data -------------Dec. 31, 2003 – Q2 ---- Sept. 30, 2003 – Q1----June 30, 2003–year-end
TOTAL ASSETS----------------------------$1,740,518--------------$1,787,940------------------$ 1,875,180
TOTAL CURRENT LIABILITIES---------$(181,776)---------------$(281,156)-----------------$ (178,315)
REVENUES------------------------------------$61,210------------------$13,653--------------------$ 200,834
COST OF SALES---------------------------------$ 0----------------------$ 0 -------------------------$ 150,000
TOTAL OPERATING EXPENSES-----$229,168---------------- $457,991--------------------$1,663,667
NET INCOME (INDICATES LOSS )---$(265,053)---------------$(387,520)------------------ $ (1,371,252)
That's all I can get out of it to post...
I4C6S
10-Z, thanks for sharing
10-Z's news release from EquitiLink...
Page 1...
Business Summary
Incorporated in 1995, First American Scientific Corporation (otcbb: FASC) is an innovative equipment manufacturer and provider of turnkey systems for “materials processing”. The company’s patented “grinder/dryer”–the KDS Micronex™ Reduction System–processes a wide range of organic and non-organic into viable end products. The system also increases the overall profitability, and reduces the environmental impact of materials processing in general. Materials processed through the system are disintegrated and the moisture is removed mechanically in a single process. The resulting matter is a fine, dry powder. The KDS Micronex system can disintegrate nearly anything with its patented sound wave technology. This process, unlike the conventional blade-oriented grinders, functions with minimal power requirements and limited maintenance. The forces in the machine simultaneously grind, reduce moisture, and destroy pathogens. The pathogen destruction ability of the machine–attested by its designation as a Registered Pesticide Device by the US Environmental Protection Agency–make it a viable solution for the safe disposal/remediation of chicken droppings. With the Avian Flu crisis in the poultry industry making headlines worldwide, the KDS Micronex system looks like it may become a key component in the resolution of this growing calamity. The KDS Micronex system provides an economically attractive and environmentally beneficial solution to the problem of many forms of waste management. Lower capital and operating cost than other currently available grinder/dryer systems, combined with a much safer operating environment, give the KDS Micronex system a significant competitive advantage in some markets, while providing a significant technological breakthrough in others.
The KDS Micronex system is practical for a wide variety of applications. A few of the key applications where the KDS Micronex system has clearly demonstrated an advantage over conventional methods include:
- Biomass waste (i.e. manure, paper sludge, bio solids, wood waste and crop residues) into fuel and fertilizer;
- Soft rock minerals (i.e. limestone, zeolite, phosphate rock, gypsum and clay) into fertilizers and industrial feed stocks; and
- Agricultural and food wastes (i.e. bread waste, seaweed, oyster shell, fish bones , and food processing waste) into animal feed
The KDS Micronex system has numerous other potential applications as well, such as the production of micronized zeolite–a key component to a new technically advanced system for oil and gas well capping. FASC recently announced a CDN $5,00,000 purchase agreement with Haliburton Group Canada to provide them with micronized zeolite to support Haliburton’s oil and gas well activities in Western Canada.
The Haliburton agreement is just the tip of the iceberg in the oil and gas industry, as FASC’s subsidiary United Zeolite Products, Ltd (33% ownership) has commenced building a zeolite production plant in Princeton, British Columbia to further enhance their micronized zeolite production. Additional plans for the Company include building a much larger zeolite processing plant near other mineral claims (owned by Zeo-Tech Enviro Corp.) to support worldwide oil and gas well operations.
Investment Highlights
THE KDS MICRONEX SYSTEM CAN BE MARKETED TO NUMEROUS INDUSTRIES, AS THERE IS ALMOST AN UNLIMITED NUMBER OF COMMERCIALLY VIABLE APPLICATIONS FOR THE TECHNOLOGY
FASC’S MISSION IS NOT TO BE SIMPLY A MANUFACTURER OF THE TECHNOLOGY, BUT TO PARTICIPATE HANDS-ON IN ALL OF ITS APPLICATIONS.
THE COMPANY IS CREDIBLE, WELL-FINANCED, AND HAS RECENTLY SIGNED NUMEROUS LOI’S AND A GREEMENTS FOR THE KDS MICRONEX SYSTEM TECHNOLOGY THAT WILL SOON RESULT IN A NUMBER OF NEW CONTRACTS.
... end of Page 1.
Where 10-Z?
Maybe I can post it for you.
About 1 cent increase per day. This is good for now. Nice and steady.
IMO, much better then the spike of last week. Shows stability!
No, you are not the only one.
And to add to TR's post, a third option would be to obtain additional funding for the KDS6000 from a JV/VC (like AGES has with Hydro Quebec). This could even be a Pulp & Paper company that sees the potential of the system and wants to invest in their own future. After all, there is more then just AP out there.