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Yes spec, I agree & that's the point... that nothing is a forgone conclusion, but I was reacting to commentary on the board, a fair amount of, as I see it... that does indeed sound very much like it is a forgone conclusion. I don't disagree w/any of your points about the patents & the solution they appear to solve & in fact, I see all of the great potential of all that's been pointed out w/respect to to them. My only point & I attempted to use a major "big story, 50 year company stock play goes bad" to illustrate it, was that no matter how good it looks, it is not a proven fact that nothing can go majorly wrong, and so to exercise extreme caution at this vulnerable time. It doesn't matter if a couple people get hung up on "grammar/all over road/pointless, mindless, no parallels, etc etc", because the fact of the matter is its good, straightforward thinking, makes sense & is only cautionary, which is fine advice in penny's ticks. That, instead of others losing the message.
Forgot to answer what "in the bag" means. It's a common knowledge phrase. I don't remember my exact use, but it refers to the talk here, about how the patents bringing soon & for sure riches, are a forgone conclusion (which nothing is until it is) or in the case of the other Co I used for example, same definition, different products.
There are indeed parallels. You chose to state there are none, because you cannot or will not see any. That doesn't mean a open minded person cannot find ANY sort of parallels. I pointed out the the story was not about parallels per se, except for the parallel of a company that had a lot going for it & held huge promise & that nearly all involved (the BOD & the stockholders heard on forums & outside people knowledgeable about that industry) spoke about it in terms of it being a near impossibly that the company's products were certain to bring forth major riches & all sorts of logic & studies & assessments were offered up to provide validation. Those elements are the kinds of parallels I was speaking of, not the business they were in or patents. If you find my post on it "pointless, baseless, nonconstrictive banter" that's your right, but it was not pointless as I specifically delineated the main point, bottom line several times, which was that the story was used as a basis to help consider how easily (and often in the stock market & on these boards) stockholders are swayed by talk of how for this or that irrefutable reason(s), the stock was a sure thing & that anyone, no matter how intelligent or valid their counters to the contrary were, that they were fools & gonna lose out. And a lot of that kind of talk has been going on here, thus my warning to not be too swayed by something that certainly is not proof by any measure, that this is gonna happen w/vp. So I stressed caution. After all, in my example there was far more solid reasons (given at the time) & way more people involved, for a very long time, who basically were saying the same thing in terms how their products & the conditions present as to the development of those products, was a no-brainer situation, sure to bring vast riches. I'm not talking about patents, I'm talking about the psychology aspect of it at least to a degree. There were far more "facts" presented to support the predictions (back then, than have been put forth here about patents. But those "facts" eventually turned to be less than facts. It wasn't mindlessly banter, as every line of it was lending support to the idea of how so many were duped, whether by fraud or poor management, for such a long time. I see pros & cons to the whole thing presented here about vp & they all have bantered about here in the last months. My comparisons & cautions are intelligent idea and viewpoint, rather than baseless & mindlessly. If something should go wrong here which obviously is as possible as anything else, and a lot of money gets lost, then what will look mindless? You said "cautious yes"... well I ask you then, just what element are you being cautious about exactly? Lastly, there was definitely a "constuctive" to my post because to talk cautionary & give parallels that have nothing to do w/patents & there "promise" for a change, and a different viewpoint, meant to be helpful, is indeed constructive. If a narrow view that has no proof & shoots down other viewpoints is considered more constructive & mindful by others, so be it.
I think you have missed my main point & purpose. I have noted that there are differences in numerous ways between the 2 companies. It is a cautionary tale w/many parallels, tho. They were not simply on the verge of discoveries, they had many discoveries so called "in the bag" & fully backed by some of the best scientists available, including some that worked for the company and can be fully vetted to this day. At one point they had drilled one of if not THE deepest wells to have been done & pioneered a lot of new technology in oil & gas. At the same time as that well (only one of many) there were published fully scientific reports that it was a known fact that one of the wells that was all done & being tested for pressure & flow, contained a record amt of NG, at least for cali, but maybe the country. It was a done deal & that's what ppl were being told & the excitement abounded. Some preliminary oil & gas was already pumped out of those wells & the oil was tested & deemed to be some of the sweetest, lightest, most valuable crude that could be produced. They were also pioneering horizontal wells & other technologies. They had many square miles of property in Alaska which was scientifically tested by the gov & hired experts to hold more gold than the nearby largest gold find ever. Many tons of ore were crushed & tested & somewhere I have the test results & it contained "PROVEN" percentage of gold much larger than ever. All these facts were published & talked about & linked to on the boards. They had some of the finest grade of calcium carbonate in massive amts .... all there... just waiting to be harvested, etc etc. It went on for yrs stringing ppl along and garnering many many millions of dollars of development $ besides the individual investors. I did not say vp put out the same kind of PR talk (altho there's been a lot coming out lately, besides the patent news) at this critical time (and it should!). The other Co also had many long lasting "quiet times" w/no pr activity at all. Bottom line is: anyone who believes and/or insists that the patents, in the bag or or not, equate unequivicably & w/o doubt to definite riches & thinks that there is no possibility of anything going wrong or unexpectedly coming out of the blue, like those who speed down the street never giving the slightest mind to the possibility of an animal or a child popping out in front of them to instantly change lives forever, is doing themselves a disservice & others who go along w/it. Don't get me wrong. I'm no basher. I don't know enough about financial to intelligently do that, and I think vp holds great promise (or I wouldn't have some of my last monies invested in it & it's real exciting & I've done all the DD that I know how to understand, but something may not be right, I don't know... and I'm urging caution is all. If whazzhisface could pull off the biggest ponzi scheme ever for so long & suckn so many, how could anyone think this is an infallible play. Big $ is very very savvy & if these patents were as definitely valuable as has been suggested here, almost impossible to have not seen a massive offer by now, IMHO.
I wanted to see if anyone maybe recognized the story. I fully realize it was a totally different sort of Co & had nothing to do w/patents, but there are many important parallels & the important message is to be careful. The company is/was tri-valley Corp. When it was on the big board it was TIV. It is currently is an otc or whatever & is I think, tvlyq if even listed. If anyone can ever get a hold of all the archives of the 15 or more yrs of msg board commentary, across iHub, yahoo & I can't at the moment remember the name of the old one, a complete read of the while story, blow-by-blow, w/all the oil, gas, minerals & gold stories, would guaranteed get the best lesson in stocks they ever could. Sorry if I overstate it, but I think it not too overstated.
I think facts are getting mixed w/possibilities. In one sentence its said that those who aren't convinced WILL NOT benefit. That is counting chickens b4 eggs hatched. Then what follows in next sentence is that those w/foresight will be greatly rewarded (altho the word "possibly" was used. It's all speculation & conjecture & many other things are possible & I just would never tell ppl w/legitimate doubts they will wind up losers when it's just as possible longs will. I'm not suggesting this is not looking like an exceptionally great play, but I was long into into a company stock, not a penny stock & watched it graduate to nynex or nasdaq & it had a 50 yrs history & many accomplishment in usa lower & Alaska & at one point was making national news & was several times on the very edge of making record breaking delivery of the resources they were developing & they also had some big, well respected names in the business on board & an extremely storied existence & many years on the stock mkt & thousands upon thousands of posts over decades of time on numerous msg boards that had many many pumpers w/every fact in the book & experts to back up all the claims & went to over $17.50 at one point....and investors who as a side group pumped in like 100-150 million in to help development & on & on..... and guess what?......it turned out to be a big scam (or at least a combination of several scams & possibly some bad mngmt by some & the decades long ceo was found guilty of fraud as well as some others & the guy who raised the 100-150 mil from the investor group was found to be a felon who was not even authorized to act as a money guy & the sec began a major investigation of all parties activities going back 10 yrs & is still ongoing possibly & one of the apparent honest top officers lost I believe more than 100 mil himself & the co went bankrupt & was forced to firesale all their holdings & is one of the biggest, saddest debacles I ever heard of in my life & could easily be the basis for several best selling books & movies & above is just a small fraction of the unreal stuff that actually occurred. It is currently on the mkt at less than a tenth of a cent & many investors & their friends & families lost a lot & many lost everything & also went bankrupt. There were so many company dog & pony shows & many silver tongued devil PRs & countless advice on the boards of what a sure thing this was w/many "indisputable" facts to back it up & except for the smart enough or lucky enough players who swung traded it when it still had value or got in cheap & out w/a profit, EVERYBODY!! right up to the bitter end holdouts & dummies, lost every sent of their $.
The approx 15 yrs long message board posts from here, yahoo & an older one, is the most unbelievable & astounding READ I have ever come across on any subject. Somewhere I have all of it saved.
So NOTHING is ever a sure thing & personally, while I have touted this stock to one friend who can afford to lose a little $, I would never tell anyone if they don't get or stay long, that they will wind up on a losing end. Stuff has a way of happening esp w/so much at stake (just ask my close friend murphy) & those who feel this turning into a fortune is a forgone conclusion & advise that others should also realize the same, are foolish. Best of luck to all longs & may the big buyout or licensing HAPPEN BABY!
I know very little about this but posted was like a half cent not that long ago & now 7-10 & not everybody is convinced on value of patents as a given thus they would certainly be concerned about daily pos & what about shorters? No?
Thanx. Having a very hard time wrapping my head around all that but I believe I get the gist. Hard to know what to look at or listen to and/or believe. Plus I don't see most of this data anyway. So I depend on the direct posts & from "reading between the lines" from the board, esp here there seems to be a wealth of info posted & links & some very helpful & knowledgeable investors here.
Trying to understand this... So it sounds like such would be a common occurrence, no? And if so, then only so much stock (no pun intended) can be put into the volume numbers, as well as so many other pieces of data we see, especially if we don't have the platforms in place to see all the finer detail. Do I understand correctly?
Plan B? Isn't that licensing? I brought up that question a couple wks ago & could find no agreement or support for that idea. Maybe different plan B?
Are you saying that all the known corruption, unscrupulous manipulation, paid pump & dumps, illegal naked shorting, insider trading, etc etc etc... are all part of the market is always right? Sounds like pretty strange stretch of logic to me. Also sounds like an impossible thing to ever prove or disprove, thus no more than something to provoke comments like one might find in a discussion of politics.
The way I see it... what's the vp cap right now, 60 mil or so? If the patents are what they have been said to be, the value would have to be way more than that even now, unless there was some known reason to think all the patents are not necessarily as good as in the bag and/or that they really don't have the value that's been touted, and they have no other income, so the current value would be kinda artificial, and really would be less, so how is the market right? I think the mkt is about as right as a person at any give time... sometimes right, sometimes wrong & always subject to the ubiquitous manipulations & unsupported fears & beliefs.
Maybe more like a clock that doesn't work... It's still right a coupla times a day...
... and it seems like I should also ask... what of these C2 voip patents? Is there any sort of potential or possibly conflict between those patents & vp?
I think i said...(or meant) "was there any indication, (in the case you cited) of the company's (C2) ability (or inability) to pay infringement lawyers (I assume thats how they eventually won out?) or maybe I misunderstood & it never got that far, but didn't u say the plaintiffs or somebody had to cough it up. I'll try to read over. Maybe I'm confused.
Good move. (the comment section thing). I have also been trying to think of avenues for a little "broadening of the cast" (did I just coin a phrase?). In fact I came to the same idea about the comments sections of whatever appropriate blogs, but hadn't yet found the place. Cool!
Your great work & contributions here, on this subject in particular, is invaluable & way appreciated. This report was very encouraging. Pardon me if I missed any mention about, but in this case, was there any indication as to the company's ability to pay the infringement lawyers or any possible contingency arrangement? Your DD & shares is making this play alot more interesting for me, for one.
Thankyou.. I wrote my argument before I read your above post. It is EXACTLY the point I want to see get really addressed, cuz the IMPLICATIONS are huge, no?
Thx very much 4 the mp3. I only have a handset currently (have a lappy but no more Internet & so far can't get the tether to work). I didn't realize it was avail. as mp3. But what you said is exactly the point that I feel is uber important to know about, for all pre-buyout investors & apparently your thinking is along the same lines. I have seen this question addressed here as a non winable, exercise in futility & my 1st thought was "well, if everything I have heard from this board is true about the enormous value of these patents, then why would any knowledgeable commentor brush aside so quickly as a not gonna happen type thing... when there must be lawyers or firms that would naturally indeed work it on contingency if indeed a real winable thing, because they also see the major potential in their cut, right? And to me that is very important, because if it were true, the comments that suggest the time & cost elements, in a court battle, are not practical & would therefore preclude them from happening in the 1st place, are not necessarily correct. If the infringement angle is not enforceable, as above suggests, then why would anyone pay mega billions? Apparently the big guy agrees, from what you noted he said at CC, or simply lied or misinformed.
Could you please expand a little on "(I still think they have a case)", or link back to where you might've covered at an earlier time.. Are you talking about a strong, winable case for infringement upholding? If so, that's what I'm interested in hearing insight about.
Possibly read your post wrong but I think more likely you read mine wrong.. 1st thing I said was to welcome your opinion (because you had said someth to the effect of: "... If you want my opinion..". 2ndly, I fully agreed with & helped validate your comment about the political aspect, by saying that it's an ever present & unfortunate "nature of the beast". Next, I separated the political from the legal because the legal aspect I spoke to was in terms of the much discussed here points about the possibility or futility of long court battles over patent infringement, that, as opposed to any political back scratching or quid pro quo isms. What I was trying to add to that element, was the idea that if the legal aspect of patent infringement was strongly in favor of vp, then that needed to be confirmed for sure by the legal minds around here, because it's a super important aspect, at this stage & development of vp. So I can't see where a single word I said was in opposition to yours & more importantly nothing even remotely questioning your knowledge of any judge stuff (which you clearly sound on the defensive about). All that said, I can't help but add that being the grandson of a judge does not automatically allow anyone to have deep insight into the inner workings. It sure sounds like that's what you claimed. Still, I was mainly in agreement. Sorry if any words I chose somehow impuned your your knowledge. No intent.
Look at that chart! Good volume... Is that a BATTLE or a FARCE?
Yes, I want anyone's opinion to be heard on these aspects. You brought up the unfortunate political aspect b4 & I guess that is always a consideration in anything of value, for that matter... nature of the beast...but as to the legal/court battles aspect, the way I see it is if the legal legs are indisputable, while this level of potential value is on table, then it's time for the legal minds to speak up on just how strong the legs are or aren't, otherwise big time caution ought be advised to potential buyer or holder's (of stock). If all this is the way it is & the reason for the beat downs (look at that chart, it's like those hammer down games in arcade) then all this bantering about is moot & we should just sit down, shut up & get to back of bus & wait for the big buyout. That kinda sucks & is boring. Hope it happens & hope large stockholders realize it ain't in the bag & not bet the farm. Most likely it ain't going anywhere til a buyout.
Hang on... he's goin thru the Fortune cookies...
Ya know... seems lime there sure must exist still alot of doubt as to the value of the patents, in order for it to be held down this tightly for this long w/continual pos news, lack of sufficient exposure, so I think the gurus here ought to focus very closely on solid possible reasons the patents might not have as much value as touted/hoped for, or if cannot, then work on getting word out beyond this board... It's VERY important to look for any scenarios that could validate overlooked possible lack or less value than has been touted. Such info could help protect shares buyers in the interim or if no such scenarios can be shown (strong ones) then it would help to stop it from being held down like this for so long & allow for some price growth and/or profit taking, btawthdik?
I thought someone might ask so I saved the link, but then I said nahhh, they must already be aware cuz so easy to Google voip-pal w/wsj, so I deleted, then I saw comments here apparently hoping for same, so..
http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130903-908016.html
The MG pr was in the WSJ
Ok, I think I get it now. The suggestion is that big players have what it takes, I guess, to work both sides to the point of driving price down & make $, while all wait for a buyout or some other big news. Not sure I understand exactly how they do that, but if it's legal, then to be expected by the sharks, while everyone waits. And if this is the case, pretty annoying to any regular stockholders & day traders who might want to see some profits sooner than stay long. But it seems this scenario would drive some of them to do some shorting in the interim. It's really tough to watch it stagnate or keep being pounced down.
Thx
But the question was, to what purpose, would you think they do so?
I think it's naive to think the co could care less about the pps, in terms of buyout. A pps of $1 or more would seemingly impress & garner higher buyout offers than 7 vent, imho.
Well said. Would you care to add, to what end...you see the manipulation, if it is a different reason than I have suggested?
Couldn't it be that the price is kept down in order to allow for a lower purchase price?
A look at the history of stocks in general, but esp penny stocks, would bear out that it's often...... NOT as simple e as that..
Yeah, but the pps isn't... as it certainly would be expected to, what with ALL the players & pieces fitting so nicely into place, so steadily & promising, plus all the touted massive value of patents AND such an apparent then, huge investor opportunity presented... yet it goes nowhere, day after day, week after week, month after month. It tries but can't. I call some sort of collusion. And for anyone to say all is hunky dory & no worries, doesn't seem fully justifiable.
Oh come on... after yesterday's continuation of positive news & the ensuing biggest price rise in quite a while, it should be obvious..
I THINK it can... I THINK it can... I THINK it can!.. I THINK IT CAN!!
(feel free to join in... ; -)
Also if you look at #'s 6432, 40, 44 & 46 (I think I got this #'s right?) you can see they don't jive right at all & 46 is the one attributed to me but meant you. And it sure does sound like you expressed problems w/mngmt, but I was only referencing who made the post. Perhaps decaf in order.. ; )
I believe I do have my facts straight. Someone replied to me about a post that was clearly made by you, not me. I replied & explained to that person that something was wrong w/the replies because I had not said what he referenced or quoted about some problem w/mngmt & that I had recently seen a couple other mixed up replies as well. He responded that he could see that it got mixed up & confirmed it was your post he was replying to, not mine. Further, it seemed clear to him that you had expressed some kind of problem w/mngmt. And I did not say that you said that there was something wrong w/mgmt, I said that you had some problem w/mgmt, just to provide reference for who said what. And you post (several now that I have seen, does clearly seem to say you have problems w/mgmt. You said you didn't trust them, etc..) but again all I did was reference it was your posting not mine.
Mr spec... I hear what your saying. The sense I get, various things about this stock considered, is not cause for alarm, but a cause for "concern" is more prudent than having none... the main reason being that it was one of the most significant drops in both percentage & to the level it dropped to, at a time when it just seems it has enuff going for it, to not really expect it, AL least not in my very limited knowledge level. Some others, here on the board, with experience & knowledgeable also are a bit aggro over the seeming stubbornness the stock is exhibiting. After all, stagnation & then big dips w/o obvious cause, on the heels of more than tremendous potential news on patents progress & mngmt super upgrades, are fair reasons I think, to warrant a natural concern, at least to know why. But agreed it not necessarily that big a deal in itself, however, by your own gauge & measure, the nature of a pennystock, in general, is more volatile inherently, thus maybe an investor cannot trust it's stability as much as a big dog. Your point about magnified swing effect w/low relative shareholder numbers, is well taken, but that could also mean the swings are more potentially potent. Also where is the official number of stockholders? I saw a much lower # somewhere recently but not sure where..
In reading your post i tried to figure out what you thought then, was the explanation for the 10% drop, but I couldn't...however I do know this much..... you need to be a good doctor...to have a lot of "patients" & in order to wait for the doctor, you have to have a lot of "patience" & in order to make.some $$ here, you'vs gotta have a lotta "patents"..
I didn't say anyth about losing faith in management. Your post says "re: to nyt" but it was someone else who said that. I think there might be someth wrong w/the posting software because I started noticing yest or day b4, where the several replies are toothed wrong person. In one case yest (I can find it later & post if possible... the correct post # was replied to but the post at that # was diff than diff or changed from who it was from originally & these instances involved my posts. So something ain't right. The names, post #'s & posts are mixed up for sure. Not good. The guy who had a problem w/mngmt was JC RI & I responded to him that mngmt seemed ok to me & now it appears that your response to my alias but your comments mix up my comments & his.
Thanks for your "advice" to sell (although I feel it's bad policy to advise stockholders to buy or sell, as that's something left best to them only) but I said nothing so drastic as selling out, only the simple notion that 10 drop is significant esp given all the qualifiers I gave to validate the point. And I think there's plenty of shares available for you if you want more. For me, selling doesn't make much sense.
Well they seem to be forthcoming w/pos news & developments & don't seem to hype lately & from what I gather from CC, they're on track towards the plan & the top guys reps very positive in preceding them which holds weight & garners respect from prospective investors... so where's their downside?